lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 23, 2020 19:39:39 GMT
How about a match up between the Bismark and a US task force with one standard type battleship a heavy cruiser and several destroyers escorting a convoy. That was what the Bismark was supposed to do. The same scenario could also be done using a RN task force with a "R" class battleship. Mark BatDiv 3, comprising the three New Mexico class battleships, was transferred to the Atlantic in May of 1941. The last class of battleships to be modernized before the war, they were arguably the most modern US battleships, pending the arrival of the two new North Carolina class ships. As I recall, Augusta, Tuscaloosa and Wichita were in the Atlantic at the time as well. Regards, Well so how can a a German Taskforce and a American Taskforce meet in May 1941, a couple of months before both sides whent officaly to war with each other, maybe having the Bismarck intercept a Lend Lease convoy from the United States escorted by New Mexico class battleships and escort as you have mentioned 1bigrich. |
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markp
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Post by markp on Feb 23, 2020 21:27:48 GMT
Either the Bismark makes it to France and the action happens later or the Terpitz is used in place of the Bismark. It just sounds like a more balanced engagement. The existence of the convoy gives the German a reason to engage.
Mark
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 23, 2020 21:42:04 GMT
Either the Bismark makes it to France and the action happens later or the Terpitz is used in place of the Bismark. It just sounds like a more balanced engagement. The existence of the convoy gives the German a reason to engage. Mark So Tirpitz sink the Hood and latter gets sunk, Bismark is in Germany and goes out with escorts to hunt for a British convoy when it encounters a US Navy escorting a convoy. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 24, 2020 12:36:50 GMT
Either the Bismark makes it to France and the action happens later or the Terpitz is used in place of the Bismark. It just sounds like a more balanced engagement. The existence of the convoy gives the German a reason to engage. Mark So Tirpitz sink the Hood and latter gets sunk, Bismark is in Germany and goes out with escorts to hunt for a British convoy when it encounters a US Navy escorting a convoy.
I think you have it the wrong away around with Bismarck and Tirpitz Lordroel. Tirpitz wasn't ready to sail at that point.
Option a:- if we had a encounter in May 41, say Bismarck gets past the RN without a fight and then runs into a USN force including say one Idaho class, one heavy cruiser and some supporting DDs then a conflict starts by accident? Say the Germans in bad visibility mistake the ships for a RN force or their closing in on a convoy when they detect the US forces close by and start firing because they think its a RN escort.
I think that battle would probably be won by the Bismarck because its newer and larger than the US BB and ditto with the accompanying CA. However the fact the US would have better trained men, the German navy having been expanded so rapidly and of course sheer luck would be important, especially who gets in the 1st big hit. Plus the US force would announce the position of the Bismarck and after such an incident both RN and USN would be hunting it down while it could also suffer enough damage to make catching it a decent possibility.
If there's more than one Idaho there then unless the Bismarck gets very lucky its likely to suffer defeat. Although especially once its against more than one BB its likely to seek to break away and with its higher speed unless that's seriously impeded they should be able to do so. Although again it would have assorted ships seeking to hunt it down.
Option b:- a later clash between the Tirpitz and say a N Carolina or S Dakota class - as the Iowa's weren't commissioned until 43 and are likely to be sent to the Pacific. Especially since by this time Tirpitz is basically stuck in Norway. In this case the USN ships are smaller but probably have a better electronic and radar suite and have a distinctly heavier armament, especially if their using the super-heavy shells. Again it would depend on luck and also what other ships would be about as unlikely a modern USN BB would be on its own in mid Atlantic. I would say the US would have the edge, albeit either side could lose or suffer a phyrric victory with the winner being so badly damaged its either lost, not worth repair or in the Tirpitz's case unable to escape the inevitable pursuit.
Either way its effectively an allied victory strategically as Germany has so few capital ships and especially since option a) brings the US into the war earlier with massive butterflies or b) removes Tirpitz earlier and hence it doesn't tie up so many allied forces deemed as heavy escorts for the Murmansk convoys. Also, assuming the old German big ships go the same way then once Scharhorst is sunk the RAF isn't spending such considerable resources in seeking to destroy Tirpiz in harbour.
Anyway my initial thoughts.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 24, 2020 12:49:08 GMT
So Tirpitz sink the Hood and latter gets sunk, Bismark is in Germany and goes out with escorts to hunt for a British convoy when it encounters a US Navy escorting a convoy. I think you have it the wrong away around with Bismarck and Tirpitz Lordroel. Tirpitz wasn't ready to sail at that point. Option a:- if we had a encounter in May 41, say Bismarck gets past the RN without a fight and then runs into a USN force including say one Idaho class, one heavy cruiser and some supporting DDs then a conflict starts by accident? Say the Germans in bad visibility mistake the ships for a RN force or their closing in on a convoy when they detect the US forces close by and start firing because they think its a RN escort.
I think that battle would probably be won by the Bismarck because its newer and larger than the US BB and ditto with the accompanying CA. However the fact the US would have better trained men, the German navy having been expanded so rapidly and of course sheer luck would be important, especially who gets in the 1st big hit. Plus the US force would announce the position of the Bismarck and after such an incident both RN and USN would be hunting it down while it could also suffer enough damage to make catching it a decent possibility. If there's more than one Idaho there then unless the Bismarck gets very lucky its likely to suffer defeat. Although especially once its against more than one BB its likely to seek to break away and with its higher speed unless that's seriously impeded they should be able to do so. Although again it would have assorted ships seeking to hunt it down. Option b:- a later clash between the Tirpitz and say a N Carolina or S Dakota class - as the Iowa's weren't commissioned until 43 and are likely to be sent to the Pacific. Especially since by this time Tirpitz is basically stuck in Norway. In this case the USN ships are smaller but probably have a better electronic and radar suite and have a distinctly heavier armament, especially if their using the super-heavy shells. Again it would depend on luck and also what other ships would be about as unlikely a modern USN BB would be on its own in mid Atlantic. I would say the US would have the edge, albeit either side could lose or suffer a phyrric victory with the winner being so badly damaged its either lost, not worth repair or in the Tirpitz's case unable to escape the inevitable pursuit.
Either way its effectively an allied victory strategically as Germany has so few capital ships and especially since option a) brings the US into the war earlier with massive butterflies or b) removes Tirpitz earlier and hence it doesn't tie up so many allied forces deemed as heavy escorts for the Murmansk convoys. Also, assuming the old German big ships go the same way then once Scharhorst is sunk the RAF isn't spending such considerable resources in seeking to destroy Tirpiz in harbour. Anyway my initial thoughts.
Steve
A my mistake stevep. Also i assume Prinz Eugen is still with Bismarck. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 24, 2020 13:17:00 GMT
I think you have it the wrong away around with Bismarck and Tirpitz Lordroel. Tirpitz wasn't ready to sail at that point. Option a:- if we had a encounter in May 41, say Bismarck gets past the RN without a fight and then runs into a USN force including say one Idaho class, one heavy cruiser and some supporting DDs then a conflict starts by accident? Say the Germans in bad visibility mistake the ships for a RN force or their closing in on a convoy when they detect the US forces close by and start firing because they think its a RN escort.
I think that battle would probably be won by the Bismarck because its newer and larger than the US BB and ditto with the accompanying CA. However the fact the US would have better trained men, the German navy having been expanded so rapidly and of course sheer luck would be important, especially who gets in the 1st big hit. Plus the US force would announce the position of the Bismarck and after such an incident both RN and USN would be hunting it down while it could also suffer enough damage to make catching it a decent possibility. If there's more than one Idaho there then unless the Bismarck gets very lucky its likely to suffer defeat. Although especially once its against more than one BB its likely to seek to break away and with its higher speed unless that's seriously impeded they should be able to do so. Although again it would have assorted ships seeking to hunt it down. Option b:- a later clash between the Tirpitz and say a N Carolina or S Dakota class - as the Iowa's weren't commissioned until 43 and are likely to be sent to the Pacific. Especially since by this time Tirpitz is basically stuck in Norway. In this case the USN ships are smaller but probably have a better electronic and radar suite and have a distinctly heavier armament, especially if their using the super-heavy shells. Again it would depend on luck and also what other ships would be about as unlikely a modern USN BB would be on its own in mid Atlantic. I would say the US would have the edge, albeit either side could lose or suffer a phyrric victory with the winner being so badly damaged its either lost, not worth repair or in the Tirpitz's case unable to escape the inevitable pursuit.
Either way its effectively an allied victory strategically as Germany has so few capital ships and especially since option a) brings the US into the war earlier with massive butterflies or b) removes Tirpitz earlier and hence it doesn't tie up so many allied forces deemed as heavy escorts for the Murmansk convoys. Also, assuming the old German big ships go the same way then once Scharhorst is sunk the RAF isn't spending such considerable resources in seeking to destroy Tirpiz in harbour. Anyway my initial thoughts.
Steve
A my mistake stevep . Also i assume Prinz Eugen is still with Bismarck.
If in the May 41 period, hence including a CA with the USN forces as well. [Assuming the three BBs and three CAs 1bigrich mentioned would be operating in pairs with some DDs accompanying each.]
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 24, 2020 13:31:05 GMT
A my mistake stevep . Also i assume Prinz Eugen is still with Bismarck. If in the May 41 period, hence including a CA with the USN forces as well. [Assuming the three BBs and three CAs 1bigrich mentioned would be operating in pairs with some DDs accompanying each.]
So two Germans versus six big Americans and their escort, i think the Americans will win this fight. |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Feb 24, 2020 13:56:57 GMT
Well so how can a a German Taskforce and a American Taskforce meet in May 1941, a couple of months before both sides whent officaly to war with each other, maybe having the Bismarck intercept a Lend Lease convoy from the United States escorted by New Mexico class battleships and escort as you have mentioned 1bigrich . Either the Bismark makes it to France and the action happens later or the Terpitz is used in place of the Bismark. It just sounds like a more balanced engagement. The existence of the convoy gives the German a reason to engage. Mark We could have BatDiv 3 sent to the Atlantic earlier. During the Bismarck chase, Prince of Wales and Norfolk nearly opened fire on the US Coast Guard Cutter Modoc. She was rescuing survivors from torpedoed ships. Just have the convoy be delayed and a battleship in company when Bismarck and Prince of Wales come by.... By the way, after the incident, Capt Leach of Prince of Wales called Modoc, 'the luckiest ship on the Seven Seas" As I recall the bridge wanted to open fire, but the Gunnery officer of PoW was convinced the ship was not German... Whether Bismarck survives in an alt-World War 2 or not, an encounter with Tirpitz before Pearl Harbor might be possible as well. Regards, |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 24, 2020 14:29:53 GMT
If in the May 41 period, hence including a CA with the USN forces as well. [Assuming the three BBs and three CAs 1bigrich mentioned would be operating in pairs with some DDs accompanying each.]
So two Germans versus six big Americans and their escort, i think the Americans will win this fight.
No I was thinking that the US ships would be operating in singletons, of one BB and one CA each along with probably some escorts. If the entire US force was united then Bismarck and Prince Eugen would be doing a runner as they would be totally outclassed so would depend on if a hit could seriously slow the Bismarck before it could get away.
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Feb 24, 2020 15:44:03 GMT
No I was thinking that the US ships would be operating in singletons, of one BB and one CA each along with probably some escorts. If the entire US force was united then Bismarck and Prince Eugen would be doing a runner as they would be totally outclassed so would depend on if a hit could seriously slow the Bismarck before it could get away.
That's what I would think, Steve. The US battleships would be operating as single heavy escorts so multiple convoys could be covered at once. Regards, |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 24, 2020 15:59:36 GMT
Forgive me but  US battleships served with the Home Fleet in 1943 for Operations Gearbox, Governor and Camera. See the TROM for Duke of York here, starting in May 1943 In August 1943, Iowa was in Argentia to guard against a Tirpitz breakout. In November and December, she carried Roosevelt to and from the Tehran conference. She didn't reach the Pacific until January 1944. As for the match-up, I'll say this: For all her power, Bismarck is an inefficient use of tonnage. Conversely, Iowa is an incredibly efficient use of tonnage, which is why there are so many "Iowa vs. Yamato" threads over on the NavWeaps BB board. Tiornu on the Warships1 forums used to say back in the day, "in a direct match-up, bet on the newer, heavier ship." I think his logic applies here. Regards, Nice post 1bigrich, sorry to say but we only have a Battle of giants: Yamato Vs Bismarck here on this forum, no Iowa vs. Yamato at this momment. Seems i was wrong, in the dept of the forum i found: Battle of giants: Yamato Vs Iowa |
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