futurist
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Post by futurist on Jul 5, 2016 5:20:40 GMT
What if the U.S. would have launched one big invasion of Canada under competent military leadership in 1812 (instead of launching three separate, smaller invasions of Canada under poor military leadership in 1812--as was the case in real life)?
Indeed, any thoughts on this?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 5, 2016 14:08:15 GMT
What if the U.S. would have launched one big invasion of Canada under competent military leadership in 1812 (instead of launching three separate, smaller invasions of Canada under poor military leadership in 1812--as was the case in real life)? Indeed, any thoughts on this? The problem is that with the Napoleonic Wars winding down, the United Kingdom could send thousands of Napoleonic Wars veterans to the American front, even with a much more competent military leadership the United States will still suffer and might still loses.
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spanishspy
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Post by spanishspy on Jul 5, 2016 14:12:08 GMT
The big problem is that the US did not have a coherent military strategy beyond port defense, or so is my understanding (I'm currently reading a history of American military strategic doctrine). If they ahd focused on Canada, they may well have annexed the whole of North America north of the Rio Grande.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 5, 2016 17:24:12 GMT
In 1812 Britain is still heavily preoccupied with the French threat so massive amounts of support of Canada is difficult. However how does the US get the military and organisational skill immediately at the start of the war that to a degree they obtained later? It takes a while for most pece-time armies to really get compenent at warfare and clear out the dead-wood of ideas, bad officers, etc.
Also there are serious logistical problems with American forces reaching the Canadian heartland at this point. You would still have to fight through Indian territory in a lot of places, especially if as OTL New England is hostile to the war. Then you have to conquer the Canadians themselves who, whether Anglos or French largely identify themselves as NOT Americans.
Its possibly that most of the settled population areas of Canada could be overrun but, presuming Napoleon still falls as OTL you have earned the emnity of the world's leading industrial, economic and naval power with access to vast funds and powerful allies and almost certainly still some useful bases. Hence you have to hold down Canada and face off whatever retaliation Britain seeks which would mean a prolonged period of high military spending and disruption of much economic activity, which is unlikely to be popular for long.
It might be the case that Britain after Napoleon's defeat is eager enough to have peace to accepted the annexation of much of Canada but after what it will see as a stab in the back its not something to be relied upon. OTL Britain was willing to agree a return to the status quo anti but that was with Canada cleared of American forces and it actually gave up some US territories it held. TTL Britain is likely to be a lot angier and there will be the danger of a massive loss of face it if just accepts the American conquests so I strongly suspect it would mean war until at least some of Canada, and probably most/all are liberated.
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Aug 3, 2016 4:43:10 GMT
In 1812 Britain is still heavily preoccupied with the French threat so massive amounts of support of Canada is difficult. However how does the US get the military and organisational skill immediately at the start of the war that to a degree they obtained later? It takes a while for most pece-time armies to really get compenent at warfare and clear out the dead-wood of ideas, bad officers, etc. Also there are serious logistical problems with American forces reaching the Canadian heartland at this point. You would still have to fight through Indian territory in a lot of places, especially if as OTL New England is hostile to the war. Then you have to conquer the Canadians themselves who, whether Anglos or French largely identify themselves as NOT Americans. Its possibly that most of the settled population areas of Canada could be overrun but, presuming Napoleon still falls as OTL you have earned the emnity of the world's leading industrial, economic and naval power with access to vast funds and powerful allies and almost certainly still some useful bases. Hence you have to hold down Canada and face off whatever retaliation Britain seeks which would mean a prolonged period of high military spending and disruption of much economic activity, which is unlikely to be popular for long. It might be the case that Britain after Napoleon's defeat is eager enough to have peace to accepted the annexation of much of Canada but after what it will see as a stab in the back its not something to be relied upon. OTL Britain was willing to agree a return to the status quo anti but that was with Canada cleared of American forces and it actually gave up some US territories it held. TTL Britain is likely to be a lot angier and there will be the danger of a massive loss of face it if just accepts the American conquests so I strongly suspect it would mean war until at least some of Canada, and probably most/all are liberated. Very good post, Steve! Also, though, out of curiosity--exactly which parts of Canada, if any, does the U.S. actually have a realistic chance of keeping in a peace deal with Britain in this scenario?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 3, 2016 13:57:31 GMT
In 1812 Britain is still heavily preoccupied with the French threat so massive amounts of support of Canada is difficult. However how does the US get the military and organisational skill immediately at the start of the war that to a degree they obtained later? It takes a while for most pece-time armies to really get compenent at warfare and clear out the dead-wood of ideas, bad officers, etc. Also there are serious logistical problems with American forces reaching the Canadian heartland at this point. You would still have to fight through Indian territory in a lot of places, especially if as OTL New England is hostile to the war. Then you have to conquer the Canadians themselves who, whether Anglos or French largely identify themselves as NOT Americans. Its possibly that most of the settled population areas of Canada could be overrun but, presuming Napoleon still falls as OTL you have earned the emnity of the world's leading industrial, economic and naval power with access to vast funds and powerful allies and almost certainly still some useful bases. Hence you have to hold down Canada and face off whatever retaliation Britain seeks which would mean a prolonged period of high military spending and disruption of much economic activity, which is unlikely to be popular for long. It might be the case that Britain after Napoleon's defeat is eager enough to have peace to accepted the annexation of much of Canada but after what it will see as a stab in the back its not something to be relied upon. OTL Britain was willing to agree a return to the status quo anti but that was with Canada cleared of American forces and it actually gave up some US territories it held. TTL Britain is likely to be a lot angier and there will be the danger of a massive loss of face it if just accepts the American conquests so I strongly suspect it would mean war until at least some of Canada, and probably most/all are liberated. Very good post, Steve! Also, though, out of curiosity--exactly which parts of Canada, if any, does the U.S. actually have a realistic chance of keeping in a peace deal with Britain in this scenario? Quebec might become a independent pro-United States country, that would be something the French will like i guess.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 3, 2016 19:13:41 GMT
Very good post, Steve! Also, though, out of curiosity--exactly which parts of Canada, if any, does the U.S. actually have a realistic chance of keeping in a peace deal with Britain in this scenario? Quebec might become a independent pro-United States country, that would be something the French will like i guess. I'm not sure if the US at this time really excepts the idea of any other state, at least in N America, being truely independent. Also as OTL I suspect the French speakers are going to decide their better off under the British umberella with substantial protection for their culture than under indirect, let alone direct American rule. What might be more in danger of annexation might be parts of Upper Canada [OTL Ontario], although to get a realistic control of this the US 1st needs to crush a lot of Indians and advance through their territory to reach this area. Thinking primarily of the southern part of the peninsula, opposite Detroit for instance. Which would also give the US a total control of the mid Great Lakes. I would say if there is a larger war its more likely the US would lose territory, say with a New England break-away.
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cornelis
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Post by cornelis on Aug 22, 2016 21:35:57 GMT
The event of a US victory is likely to have consequences in Europe. If the UK sends more troops and diverts more money to the N-American theatre, Napoléon could benefit from this. For example, if Wellington and half his army are rerouted to Canada, Spain is not lost for the French (Salamanca is july 22 1812 and Vitoria June 21, 1813). With a victory over the Spanish and remaining British, Napoléon can divert more troops from the Peninsule and strengthen his Central European armies.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 22, 2016 22:19:19 GMT
The event of a US victory is likely to have consequences in Europe. If the UK sends more troops and diverts more money to the N-American theatre, Napoléon could benefit from this. For example, if Wellington and half his army are rerouted to Canada, Spain is not lost for the French (Salamanca is july 22 1812 and Vitoria June 21, 1813). With a victory over the Spanish and remaining British, Napoléon can divert more troops from the Peninsule and strengthen his Central European armies. Very true. I doubt if there would be major transfers of troops from Europe before Napoleon was defeated simply because that was more crucial to Britain's survive than the threat to the Canadian colonies by the US. However it would definitely be a distraction and I think some naval strength was diverted to N America to protect trade by cutting down on US privateers and blockade their own ports in the process. The danger might be if Britain response more strongly after Napoleon's defeat in 1814 and doesn't have the strength to perform its OTL role at Waterloo in 1815 if/when Napoleon returns because more forces have been sent west to fight the Americans. Historically Wellington was unwilling to go to N America even after the 1814 victory because he viewed the situation in Europe as more important. However things might have been different and he goes west, or simply more of hos veterans. Its unlikely Napoleon would win here as even if the British/allied and Prussian forces were defeated there are massive Russian and Austrian armies marching against him and he has limited manpower, relying on volunteer veterans as he dare not reimpose conscription. A lot of those are likely to be casualties in a Waterloo campaign even if he wins against the British and Prussians so I think Napoleon was on borrowed time. The key difference here is that if Austrian and Russian forces supply the killing blows then they will have more influence in the following peace and Britain and possibly Prussia less.
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cornelis
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Post by cornelis on Aug 22, 2016 23:10:33 GMT
Agreed, Napoléon was not in a position of power in 1815. Nonetheless, without Waterloo, maybe he could manage a transfer of power to his son. The young Napoléon II was, after all, Franz's grandson.
Napoléon himself would go west to the US and finally win against Wellington in an epic Second Battle of the Plains of Abraham ! Sadly, that list bit is unrealistic.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 23, 2016 11:53:12 GMT
Agreed, Napoléon was not in a position of power in 1815. Nonetheless, without Waterloo, maybe he could manage a transfer of power to his son. The young Napoléon II was, after all, Franz's grandson. Napoléon himself would go west to the US and finally win against Wellington in an epic Second Battle of the Plains of Abraham ! Sadly, that list bit is unrealistic. We'll have to disagree on that last bit. I doubt a military dictator and autocrat like Napoleon would be welcomed in the US, at least once the war is over. Also I would definitely be unhappy if his presence lead to the conquest of Canada by the US. It might be although there was a strong desire for a return to conservatism and a rejection of all the ideas of the revolution so I think all the great powers, with the possible exception of Austria, would pressure for the return of the legitimate Bourbon dynasty. Mind you even Austria is unlikely to support Napoleon II as emperor of France because it would destablise Europe. Metternich was already in a position of power and having supported the marriage of Marie Louise had quickly turned to supporting Napoleon's defeat. Think its more likely that a small statelet would be found for Marie Louise where she and her son could be distanced from Napoleon as OTL. I agree that French intervention wouldn't be a lasting solution for maintaining the Spanish empire. They might hold back the pressure for reform for a few years, possibly a generation if they allow Spain to restore its grip, although I suspect it won't last that long. However such intervention would be costly, fiscally and politically and I suspect would wan after a few years. Also sooner or later Britain and/or a strengthening US will start opposing Spanish rule openly.
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cornelis
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Post by cornelis on Aug 24, 2016 8:25:44 GMT
Despite the adverse British propaganda, Napoléon's image was not so dark in 1815, especially in a country at war with the UK. Anyways, I was just referring to an epic rematch of both Waterloo and the Plains of Abraham, french defeats that even non-imperialists Frenchmen cannot help to regret. I am not a fan of Napoléon's politics and I found many of his policies ultimately downgrading France's assets.
My idea is that, with a military stalemate in Europe, the Napoléon II solution is a compromise. Napoléon goes down quietly, Talleyrand takes the rein (his ultimate goal all along was a liberal regime, be it a constitutional monarchy or an Empire of the French), the Bourbons are compensated in Italy, and Austria takes the lead. Of course, the British, once they have deal with the US, will try to undermine the Austrian supremacy by rallying up the Prussians and the Russians.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 24, 2016 12:47:15 GMT
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cornelis
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Post by cornelis on Aug 25, 2016 8:02:48 GMT
That's the all point, isn't it ? If Napoléon beats the British-Prussians in 1815 (the only turning point of this timeline), could he beat the Austrians and the Russians in successive battles or at least held them at bay, long enough for the British to seek a compromise ?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 25, 2016 8:46:15 GMT
That's the all point, isn't it ? If Napoléon beats the British-Prussians in 1815 (the only turning point of this timeline), could he beat the Austrians and the Russians in successive battles or at least held them at bay, long enough for the British to seek a compromise ? I doubt he could hold them off that long and am pretty certain the British wouldn't seek a compromise with him. He had been the enemy and threat too long and Britain could afford a defeat at Waterloo and hang on while organising new forces far more than risking Napoleon continuing control in France. Plus by this time I think he was too far gone ego wise and if he started winning a few battles he would think of conquest again. At which point it would be a race between the combined allied powers and the population of France as to who would depose him 1st. Or do you mean a compromise with the US? By 1815 that had already been achieved?
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