stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 6, 2016 20:29:38 GMT
Dave Shoup won the MOH at Tarawa and rose to Commandant ( 4 stars); Jim Gavin won two DSCs in the ETO with the 82nd and rose to Lieutenant General (3 stars). They should have been listened to... Small quibble in that although I don't know the people involved, just because they won medals in combat and rose to high rank doesn't mean they will be right. No doubt there were plenty of bemedaled generals and the like fully supporting Westmoorland's operations. Definitely the US needed different tactics in Vietnam and I think better political leadership in Iraq and Afghanistan. [The British leadership, political and military at high level was terrible in terms of the apparently total lack of planning for events after the initial invasions were over.  ] |
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tfsmith121
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War is the remedy our enemies have chosen
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Post by tfsmith121 on Jul 7, 2016 2:27:25 GMT
True that...
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spanishspy
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Post by spanishspy on Jul 7, 2016 13:35:18 GMT
Dave Shoup won the MOH at Tarawa and rose to Commandant ( 4 stars); Jim Gavin won two DSCs in the ETO with the 82nd and rose to Lieutenant General (3 stars). They should have been listened to... Small quibble in that although I don't know the people involved, just because they won medals in combat and rose to high rank doesn't mean they will be right. No doubt there were plenty of bemedaled generals and the like fully supporting Westmoorland's operations. Definitely the US needed different tactics in Vietnam and I think better political leadership in Iraq and Afghanistan. [The British leadership, political and military at high level was terrible in terms of the apparently total lack of planning for events after the initial invasions were over. ] We shouldn't have done de-Ba'athification the way we did. That ruined any hope of a peaceful Iraq in a short period of time. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 7, 2016 15:47:18 GMT
Small quibble in that although I don't know the people involved, just because they won medals in combat and rose to high rank doesn't mean they will be right. No doubt there were plenty of bemedaled generals and the like fully supporting Westmoorland's operations. Definitely the US needed different tactics in Vietnam and I think better political leadership in Iraq and Afghanistan. [The British leadership, political and military at high level was terrible in terms of the apparently total lack of planning for events after the initial invasions were over. ] We shouldn't have done de-Ba'athification the way we did. That ruined any hope of a peaceful Iraq in a short period of time. Interesting, with the Chilcot report coming out there has been a lot on Iraq and one of the talking heads said that the initial plan, can't remember whether for UK or UK & US, was for only relatively few members of the Ba'ath Party to be dismissed but they handed it over to the local Iraqi politicians and that ended up with far more people losing their jobs and ability to hold any offices. That could have been blame passing possibly but it was rather stupid clearing out just about everybody, despite how vicious the regime had been, given the problems it caused. |
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spanishspy
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Post by spanishspy on Jul 8, 2016 15:55:07 GMT
We shouldn't have done de-Ba'athification the way we did. That ruined any hope of a peaceful Iraq in a short period of time. Interesting, with the Chilcot report coming out there has been a lot on Iraq and one of the talking heads said that the initial plan, can't remember whether for UK or UK & US, was for only relatively few members of the Ba'ath Party to be dismissed but they handed it over to the local Iraqi politicians and that ended up with far more people losing their jobs and ability to hold any offices. That could have been blame passing possibly but it was rather stupid clearing out just about everybody, despite how vicious the regime had been, given the problems it caused. The International Security class I took discussed de-Ba'athification a bit. My professor said that when he heard how it was being conducted he knew then and there the postwar would be a mess. Party membership was how people advanced their career, and not many of them were true believers. They got rid of a lot of talent. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 8, 2016 20:32:43 GMT
Well to be honest I 1st got really worried shortly after the liberation of Basra when a British army offical was saying somethiong to the effect that the army, being in charge of Basra, had no responsibility for law and order. [Probably remembering things slightly wrong but something along that line]. It was a definite Oh shit moment!!
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 8, 2016 20:38:07 GMT
Interesting, with the Chilcot report coming out there has been a lot on Iraq and one of the talking heads said that the initial plan, can't remember whether for UK or UK & US, was for only relatively few members of the Ba'ath Party to be dismissed but they handed it over to the local Iraqi politicians and that ended up with far more people losing their jobs and ability to hold any offices. That could have been blame passing possibly but it was rather stupid clearing out just about everybody, despite how vicious the regime had been, given the problems it caused. The International Security class I took discussed de-Ba'athification a bit. My professor said that when he heard how it was being conducted he knew then and there the postwar would be a mess. Party membership was how people advanced their career, and not many of them were true believers. They got rid of a lot of talent. Not only a lot of lost talent, including amongst the people who knew how to govern the country. Also that a large and important proportion of the population had no incentive in a new democratic Iraq and plenty of frustration. If you had been able to remove only the main fanatics their a lot fewer in numbers and hence far less capable of causing major problems. True there is also the factor that the need for justice means you will probably have a lot of peiple who were only furthering their career/doing their jobs who caused a hell of a lot of suffering. When your had major attrocities for decades how far down the food chain do you take any hunt for justice? |
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spanishspy
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Post by spanishspy on Jul 8, 2016 20:55:03 GMT
The International Security class I took discussed de-Ba'athification a bit. My professor said that when he heard how it was being conducted he knew then and there the postwar would be a mess. Party membership was how people advanced their career, and not many of them were true believers. They got rid of a lot of talent. Not only a lot of lost talent, including amongst the people who knew how to govern the country. Also that a large and important proportion of the population had no incentive in a new democratic Iraq and plenty of frustration. If you had been able to remove only the main fanatics their a lot fewer in numbers and hence far less capable of causing major problems. True there is also the factor that the need for justice means you will probably have a lot of peiple who were only furthering their career/doing their jobs who caused a hell of a lot of suffering. When your had major attrocities for decades how far down the food chain do you take any hunt for justice? That's an important ethical question. Should we prioritize results? |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 9, 2016 16:21:36 GMT
Not only a lot of lost talent, including amongst the people who knew how to govern the country. Also that a large and important proportion of the population had no incentive in a new democratic Iraq and plenty of frustration. If you had been able to remove only the main fanatics their a lot fewer in numbers and hence far less capable of causing major problems. True there is also the factor that the need for justice means you will probably have a lot of peiple who were only furthering their career/doing their jobs who caused a hell of a lot of suffering. When your had major attrocities for decades how far down the food chain do you take any hunt for justice? That's an important ethical question. Should we prioritize results? There may be a moral answer to that question but is there a correct one? And does that vary from case to case? Ultimately politicians and probably most people will agree that peace and stability is worth a lot but its going to hurt to see torturers and murderers walking free for relatives of victims. This is still a problem to some in Ulster as it means a lot of evil scum on both 'sides' of the politicial/religious' divide were allowed out of jail to the frustratation of many families. I would have preferred a strict rule that those already convicted must complete their sentences. |
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spanishspy
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Post by spanishspy on Jul 10, 2016 1:11:21 GMT
That's an important ethical question. Should we prioritize results? There may be a moral answer to that question but is there a correct one? And does that vary from case to case? Ultimately politicians and probably most people will agree that peace and stability is worth a lot but its going to hurt to see torturers and murderers walking free for relatives of victims. This is still a problem to some in Ulster as it means a lot of evil scum on both 'sides' of the politicial/religious' divide were allowed out of jail to the frustratation of many families. I would have preferred a strict rule that those already convicted must complete their sentences. That seems like a reasonable rule. |
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