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Post by diamondstorm on Sept 18, 2024 0:09:57 GMT
In the early colonial period, the 1600s, there was great concern about how the colonies would last, so there wasn't a desire to worry about slavery the slave question when there were not many African slaves in the colonies to start with. Also, the curtains were involved in the triangular trade, which did decrease the pilgrim's or New Englanders' religious feaver, as mentioned. I believe that in the late 1600s, few purtians had achieved the benchmark that not even half of the purtians in the church had received evidence of personal salvation; this proved a foreshadowing of a great awakening in the 1730s. However, this is not all at the fault of money, but that of the theology of overthinking predestination, which, for many years, even up in the early 1900s, purtians had higher suicide rates. Surprisingly, the purtians New Englanders in the 1700s did have churches that opposed the slave trade, probably because it was so embedded in their society and perhaps had effects on the members. Remember the 1600s pilgrim days were worlds away from the 1700s established colonial class days. In the early colonial 1600s class wasn't a big issue as they were struggling to earn a living and the early purtians would be less class conscious then the new englanders of the 1700s Honestly I don’t know how this discussion turned into one about slavery. Well, I guess I do, but it highly distracts from what I was trying to discuss in the first place. The Pilgrims were expected to land in the parts of Virginia that became part of the OTL CSA anyway. I should've said they were NOT expected to land in the portion of Virginia that became the state of Virginia that joined the CSA. My mistake. |
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Post by diamondstorm on Sept 18, 2024 1:04:54 GMT
Honestly I don’t know how this discussion turned into one about slavery. Well, I guess I do, but it highly distracts from what I was trying to discuss in the first place. The Pilgrims were expected to land in the parts of Virginia that became part of the OTL CSA anyway. How so? Please explain. Because Virgina was over 5 modern states big the pilgrims where going to land on the Hudson vally modern day new york. However the purtians who landed from the Mayflower arguably didn't play a tremendous impact because Plymouth Rock was a substantive farming community that almost failed and was later absorbed into a larger colony. If the pilgrims had failed, there would have been fewer immigrants, but the colonizing of New England would still have happened. The Mayflower story is more important for anesthetic purposes. The Thanksgiving holiday would be galvanized because this debatably fake holiday is associated with the pilgrims. The so-called first Thanksgiving is almost made up, as there is but one account of the minor event by William Bradford, I think. During the 1850s, when tensions between the North and South were as high as ever, an influential New Englander proposed that to bring unity, we should have a national Thanksgiving. This backfired, as the South attacked the proposal as another episode of New Englanders imposing their agenda over the nation. plus remember not all thanksgiving are associated with eating but prayers The Pilgrims landing at the mouth of the Hudson River instead of Plymouth, MA is actually what I intended to discuss. I asked about it because I want to explore the implications of the colonization of North America since it could potentially alter the history of New England and there's also the French, Dutch, and Swedes to consider too (which I probably should've mentioned in the original post). |
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Post by American hist on Sept 18, 2024 15:33:30 GMT
It would be interesting If this pod Could have changed Virginia’s border. Well, there were Puritans, who did settle in New York But they did not dominate the culture. The Puritan New England settlers did become the majority influence during the 17 and 1800 and upstate New York . Even in upstate New York, there became a lot of diverse immigrants from different parts of the globe. In Syracuse, New York, it is very diverse as it is an upstate New York Refugees from all over .
The Puritans would have Been influenced by the worldly Dutch ways of New Amsterdam just as they were in Holland.
If anyone remembers then forgotten colony of province It was a Puritan colony established in Nicaragua that made its living through piracy, Salvaging, Cash crops With the use of slave labor . Example of a colony where the Puritans have very high hopes evidence wasn’t going to their dreams fufilment
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Post by diamondstorm on Sept 18, 2024 19:07:41 GMT
It would be interesting If this pod Could have changed Virginia’s border. Well, there were Puritans, who did settle in New York But they did not dominate the culture. The Puritan New England settlers did become the majority influence during the 17 and 1800 and upstate New York . Even in upstate New York, there became a lot of diverse immigrants from different parts of the globe. In Syracuse, New York, it is very diverse as it is an upstate New York Refugees from all over . The Puritans would have Been influenced by the worldly Dutch ways of New Amsterdam just as they were in Holland. If anyone remembers then forgotten colony of province It was a Puritan colony established in Nicaragua that made its living through piracy, Salvaging, Cash crops With the use of slave labor . Example of a colony where the Puritans have very high hopes evidence wasn’t going to their dreams fufilment The Pilgrims were the ones who went to the Netherlands IIRC, not the Puritans (granted Pilgrims were Puritans but most Puritans were not Pilgrims). |
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Post by American hist on Sept 19, 2024 2:34:59 GMT
It would be interesting If this pod Could have changed Virginia’s border. Well, there were Puritans, who did settle in New York But they did not dominate the culture. The Puritan New England settlers did become the majority influence during the 17 and 1800 and upstate New York . Even in upstate New York, there became a lot of diverse immigrants from different parts of the globe. In Syracuse, New York, it is very diverse as it is an upstate New York Refugees from all over . The Puritans would have Been influenced by the worldly Dutch ways of New Amsterdam just as they were in Holland. If anyone remembers then forgotten colony of province It was a Puritan colony established in Nicaragua that made its living through piracy, Salvaging, Cash crops With the use of slave labor . Example of a colony where the Puritans have very high hopes evidence wasn’t going to their dreams fufilment The Pilgrims were the ones who went to the Netherlands IIRC, not the Puritans (granted Pilgrims were Puritans but most Puritans were not Pilgrims). At this point, I’m gonna call Pilgrims people who were Puritans or separatist in the New England colonies because pilgrims can Also be described as the Puritans who came to New England after The May flower. It was the Puritans who wanted to purify the church of England. The separatist wanted to separate from the church of England all together. Also, let’s remember the influence the Puritans could have On the surroundings of their environment. When I went to university, there was a Puritan father whose son went to the Caribbean To be successful Unfortunately, islands proved a very bad influence on him. He would want to Stay up all night partying And took a great fondness to Buffoonery and heavy drinking. While this is not the article We do have a reading about the Puritans in the Caribbean. scholarcommons.sc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=4130&context=etd |
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Post by raharris1973 on Oct 4, 2024 12:53:55 GMT
The Mayflower pilgrims were puritans who were separatists who wanted to break away from an irredeemable Church of England, and basically set up what would become the Congregational Church model. The bigger wave of Puritans who came to Mass Bay, north of Plymouth and the Cape wanted to purify and take over the Church of England and make it conform to their austere Calvinist doctrine which they shared with the Pilgrim separatists.
The Puritans were a larger group with wealthier, more powerful supporters who got to dominate England politically in the Commonwealth and Cromwell protectorate years and banned Shakespearean theater and Christmas (the fun, non-Churchy parts).
The puritan Calvinists of New England or anywhere else did not turn in to principled anti slavery opponents until after the mid 1700s. They had much less use of slave laborers in their local economy, because they had a much more rapidly growing white population compared to southern colonies and much less land in cash crop cultivation, but their shipping merchants were thick as thieves in the slave trade until the British shut down Boston port for the tea party.
In fact, Massachusetts codified a slave code a decade *before* Virginia!
Early New Englanders used African slaves and purchased Amerindian slaves from the Caribbean. When defeating Amerindian enemies, it sold captives into slavery into the Carribean, much like the Carolinas did on industrial scale.
Plymouth on manhattan probably would have been less different culturally from Virginia on the James river than Plymouth in New England was, and probably would have held slaves longer and even grown a little tobacco based on New York State experience.
There was no contradiction between being a puritan separatist and a slaveholder, some of the conquering founder English populations of Barbados and Jamaica were such, and some of those Barbadians became South Carolina founders.
American anti-slavery-ism started as a weird quirk of just one Pennsylvania Quaker vegetarian dwarf, Benjamin Lay, in the early to middle 1700s, and only gradually became a less eccentric and exotic opinion in northern colonies.
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Post by Max Sinister on Oct 9, 2024 10:43:18 GMT
This post has a nice map about the amount of slavery at that time.
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Post by American hist on Oct 15, 2024 0:32:22 GMT
Some native people Such as the tribe that helped the pilgrims hate Thanksgiving. However, I have known Native American tribal Indians, who have celebrated the holiday I wish I was still in contact with him The holiday is not negative for a holiday about getting together plus, none of their tribes were affected by the pilgrims . If you were a tribe where The pilgrims Allied against you then that would be understandable . The colonization of America was going to happen one way or another
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