575
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Post by 575 on Aug 13, 2024 20:33:56 GMT
Well to me the idea would be to make the broad swing behind the Belgian fortifications and south of the Dutch main force in central Netherlands.
Why would they occupy the Netherland entirely - it was a question of encircling the French in 6 weeks and thus win the war - not detaching occupation troops though this could be left to follow up troops.
Indeed Moltke wanted to keep the Netherlands outlet open but thats not the issue here. i know the area the Germans wanted to march true North of Masstricht (i live near by) in 1914 it would nearly impossible to move a German Army and there Heavy equipment true that wet land. the Actual route the First Army took true Belgium was better If someone invade you homeland, you sitting chair and do nothing ? hell No ! once the Germans over running the Border the Netherlands declare war on Germany and join the Entente ! and now the German Army Commando has serious problem first deal with Netherlands. other wise BEF and French Troops arrive in Netherland harbours, to support Netherlands Army... Well actually I find that the plan was madness but we can discuss matters thats what the site is for. If somebody invade my homeland I won't just sit relaxing in my chair - be assured!!!
The actual route might have been better but it delayed the Germans for a week instead of marching through Netherlands somewhat further north of Maastricht. I don't think it was a good place to settle upon as the Germans knew the Belgian fortifications was on the road and the marshy Netherlands hence my idea of shifting a little further north around Roermund though it might only be a secondary railway there so perhaps Venlo. All to get a better route.
Still I don't see the Germans have gotten much of a problem in invading Netherlands - remember this is not a discussion of a several year long outlook - this was deemed to last six weeks by Schlieffen - just like France 1940 and Soviet Union 1941..
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 13, 2024 22:27:20 GMT
Ah I wasn't sure if you were suggesting Schlieffen initial plan/memo which called for the raising of much larger forces. Thanks for clarifying. Are you assuming the OTL force strength at the start of the war but without that additional army committed to the defence of the A-L region? Possibly with additional railway construction to help reduce the congestion in the deployment. Also would you consider the plan to be going east or west of Paris?
The reason why I thought it might mean the French stop their own offensive earlier was that, as I understand it, while they expected an attack through Belgium they thought the bulk of the German invasion would come through northern A-L. If the blow in the north is clearly heavier, with an additional army attacking the Netherlands then that might prompt them to realise the danger earlier which would prompt them to curtail their own offensive and use their interior lines to get more forces north faster.
With the Dutch colonies I'm think less of their military forces than the economic impact of some wealthy colonies being added to the allied cause. Including their oil production and probably also a fair chunk of the Dutch merchant as well as military navy.
If the Germans don't occupy the rest of the Netherlands - expecting to win quickly in France and hence decide the war - how much would they need to have garrisoning the border and also the occupied part of the Netherlands? Probably not a lot especially as the Dutch might not risk much in the way of offensive action but at least would need something.
Well my idea was that Moltke don't change the basics of the Schlieffen plan thus 3. Army is still party to the great sweep round west of Paris. That would be the plan but things may well go awry as OTL.
From what I've read I'm unsure the French were so clear in mind and sight that they would send a more or less independent force north towards Lille? to get in the German flank. Actually they had quite a force up there in Picardy but that was reserve troops not thought fit for fight - which circumstances would prove different. The Germans from the outset planned for using the Reserve Korps as part of the build up though that would be the second echelon more or less. It would be faster for Joffre to use those Reserve Corps to build a trip wire and then reinforce though such might also let the Germans get further west than OTL on the Channel coast.
Agree on the Dutch colonies - they were important and would be so to Allied war procurement.
The Netherlands had a smallish Army as outlined so would only require a couple of Reserve Corps to keep in check - I'd guess. The wet terrain is a blessing to both sides. The occupied part of Netherlands would also require some troops but I'm rather in the black on this - I know from a book on Danish drafted into the German Army that some of them were sent to keep the farms in Belgium which the men had left for the service while the women and children stayed behind. Not much on resistance! Actually some made it work quite well as long as they were out of harms way. Might go that was too in Netherland. From what I've just read it don't seem the Dutch was much prepared for taking the offensive. Also the Government according the Lordroel's link was quite scared of repercussions as said general went his own ways!
As I understand it France had I think it was the 5th Army guarding the border opposite Belgium, and moving into it once the Germans invaded, which was joined by the BEF. It might have been the case if the Netherlands were attacked as well some different allocation would be made because for the French the width of the right hook would be somewhat clearer and for the British the traditional importance of Antwerp and also a move which would [try and] protect both the Belgium capital and the important port of Antwerp, as well as cover the southern flank of the Dutch position.
Agree that the Dutch are unlikely to do much attacking on the border with Germany if left largely alone but thinking of the possible political consequences if they did and the German government got caught hopping.
If the Germans still try and go west of Paris I think their likely to fail worse than OTL because the additional distance will ever more spread thin and exhaust the German forces.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 13, 2024 22:33:57 GMT
If they do pocket the forces around Liege then can they use railway or roads through S Netherlands and then N Belgium to make up the lack of transport links? That was why the fortifications were there as it was a natural bottleneck and the Germans put so much effort into capturing them ASAP. I think Belgium successfully managed to sabotage a good chunk of their railway network which mean troops had to march and supplies moved by horse drawn transport. Otherwise they still have to batter their way into Liege anyway. They might get Antwerp earlier but I don't think that's really on the primary line of march for Paris.
Two other points that come to mind.
a) If Liege is less important then is Ludendorff elsewhere and if so does he get to gain the OTL prestige here, which could have a big impact on his future career or lack of.
b) By attacking the Netherlands that means they don't have to close the Scheldt estuary and hence if the Germans are still delayed a bit there's a possibility of allied forces getting to and being supported in Antwerp earlier, which poses a potential threat to the northern flank of their invasion into France and also possibly linking up with the supply of a Dutch fortress position. True not sure what could go there unless some of the BEF was diverted in short order but depending on how flexible British plans and contacts with the Dutch would be that could be an issue. It would leave the French flank more exposed but might be seen as important enough to do it and might prompt changes in French plans in turn. - Probably not too practical in reality but not sure so asking a question.
The map of raiways in OP show the possibilities though the Dutch had prepared demolitions so this may well delay the Germans. From WWII occupation it is known that repairs of such wasn't a big deal if you had dedicated personnel and equipment for it. Guess the Germans being Germans would have such ready though the effect would be there. Antwerp I just pointed to because it was an important port for Belgium and a fortified place and the Belgians DID defend the place when retreating from Liege before going on to the borderlands with France. It might just not get the importance it did.
a) Definately - he might just end up a Corps or Army commander among a lot others.
b) Churchill you know did send the Royal Marine Division to Antwerp to aid the Belgian defences - read of it years back. Here there just mightn't be anybody to aid and in worse case the RMD is lost.. Are you sure the British would walk into a dead end.. well Gallipoli, Irak.. I think the Netherlands would be viewed as a dead end except by the First Sea Lord.. It would be tempting but would trigger a solid German response and I guess the French wouldn't like such diversion.
This is all just a result of my just having read on the subject and wanting to hear You lot - not TL stuff. 
As I understand it the 'Marine division' was a couple of brigades of lightly armed men, many of whom were ordinary sailors not yet allocated to ships and hence was a stupid waste of trained manpower but unfortunately that was Churchill too often.
Not sure the issue with Gallipoli was the idea or the way it was implemented. Just about everything that could go wrong did in so many ways with some very amateurish planning and preparation at multiple stages. However agree than any landing in the region would have been risky - or at least seemed so - if it involved a significant force, which would have to be most/all of the BEF as there's the danger of having to evacuate and also of leaving the French north flank exposed. Plus with the Netherlands also in the way supply by water would have been a lot easier.
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575
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Post by 575 on Aug 14, 2024 9:10:05 GMT
Well my idea was that Moltke don't change the basics of the Schlieffen plan thus 3. Army is still party to the great sweep round west of Paris. That would be the plan but things may well go awry as OTL.
From what I've read I'm unsure the French were so clear in mind and sight that they would send a more or less independent force north towards Lille? to get in the German flank. Actually they had quite a force up there in Picardy but that was reserve troops not thought fit for fight - which circumstances would prove different. The Germans from the outset planned for using the Reserve Korps as part of the build up though that would be the second echelon more or less. It would be faster for Joffre to use those Reserve Corps to build a trip wire and then reinforce though such might also let the Germans get further west than OTL on the Channel coast.
Agree on the Dutch colonies - they were important and would be so to Allied war procurement.
The Netherlands had a smallish Army as outlined so would only require a couple of Reserve Corps to keep in check - I'd guess. The wet terrain is a blessing to both sides. The occupied part of Netherlands would also require some troops but I'm rather in the black on this - I know from a book on Danish drafted into the German Army that some of them were sent to keep the farms in Belgium which the men had left for the service while the women and children stayed behind. Not much on resistance! Actually some made it work quite well as long as they were out of harms way. Might go that was too in Netherland. From what I've just read it don't seem the Dutch was much prepared for taking the offensive. Also the Government according the Lordroel's link was quite scared of repercussions as said general went his own ways!
As I understand it France had I think it was the 5th Army guarding the border opposite Belgium, and moving into it once the Germans invaded, which was joined by the BEF. It might have been the case if the Netherlands were attacked as well some different allocation would be made because for the French the width of the right hook would be somewhat clearer and for the British the traditional importance of Antwerp and also a move which would [try and] protect both the Belgium capital and the important port of Antwerp, as well as cover the southern flank of the Dutch position.
Agree that the Dutch are unlikely to do much attacking on the border with Germany if left largely alone but thinking of the possible political consequences if they did and the German government got caught hopping.
If the Germans still try and go west of Paris I think their likely to fail worse than OTL because the additional distance will ever more spread thin and exhaust the German forces.
Found a map of French Army and BEF dispositions during early August 1914 onWiki on Bataille of the frontiers:
French 5. Army was at Sedan for obvious reasons as the French (unlike 1939/40) expected the Germans to move through the Ardennes!
ITTL the 3 German Army (Hausen) would have been furthern north along 1. and 2. making for a larger force encountered by the Allies once they get going. Also ITTL those German armies - or at least part of them - would be swinging around the Belgian fortifications at Liege and Namur perhaps making them able to arrive earlier at say Mons than OTL according to this map also from wiki:
Group d'Amade was a hodge-podge of Reserve Divisions and other units pulled together to barr the German advance and extend the Allied line towards the sea.
Without being obstructed by the Belgian fortifications thus wasting most of a week though having to march longer may off-set this advantage though with the mindset of the day I have difficulty in believing the Dutch Commanding General - from lordroels link in earlier post - would delegate command to some local defence Officer on when to blow bridges or not!
With the communications of the day from earlier linked to written works I find it possible that such orders would be difficult to obtain by the man in the spot and hence military training of the era would decide if he would dare blowing up said bridges.
Though the Dutch seemed - from the linked sources - to perhaps have had an idea of German intentions they certainly didn't reinforce Maastricht like hell to deny the Peninsulars use to the Germans. Instead they opted for a - like WWII - defence of Central Netherlands! The difference from WWII Dutch Campaign would be that the main of objective of the German Imperial Army would be to bypass the Dutch - skirt around the rear of the Belgian defences (3. Army might be the one to tie down the Belgians in place to prevent their escape while the swing through Netherlands and their rear occur) and go for the great swing west of Paris. Schlieffens intend.
Which of course will see alteration along the way as friction happens.
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575
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Post by 575 on Aug 15, 2024 11:41:56 GMT
One of the things inhibiting main actors of both sides were the vanity/selfassurance of men in top Command!
Schlieffen did a staff ride prior to drawing up Aufmarsch West which he then asked three of his staff to question in writing; eventually concluding that his opinion being superior and discharting the issues raised.
Papa Joffre was of the conviction that the German Army had too few troops to try the large swing through Belgium hence the battle would unfold on the French-German/Luxembourg/Ardennes part of these. Hence disbelieving that the Germans were actually doing what they did.
Snijders Dutch Commander told the Government to let him handle all military matters on his own.
German Military Intelligence wasn't the most brilliant; prior to the occupation of Denmark the number of German officers vacationing in Denmark had been so large that it had its own niche in the public perception of the events prior - everybody was aware of them or at least said afterwards they had been. The Germans also overlook some crucial units placement - some in full sight and drew false conclusions of the Danish Military excercises of 1938.
All of this coupled to less communications effectiveness in 1914 will be offsetting both sides.
Hence why I think the Germans ought to have made a more nothern intrusion into the southern Netherlands than Schlieffen had decided. Even with doing such things may and will still go awry.
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