stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 24, 2024 15:54:54 GMT
At this stage I would expect that the market for Greek texts would be considerably larger than that for Latin and knowledge of the 'future' of Greece and the Greek people up until 1560 is going to raise a lot of questions in the Greek world. It raises great "philosophical" questions? What is the nature of time? Which God did this event to us and brought this Enaglandos among us? Why, oh, why did we become patsies for the rude Macedonian barbarians? .....and then for the even ruder Latin Italic barbarians? ..........and then the. T..t...t....t...Turksss? is their name? And when did we become so dumb as to reduce the cosmos to one, unseen God, originated by manhood/genital mutilating sheepherders from the desert?
There could be an argument presented here that the gods are showing them the dangers of taking them for granted and not showing them adequate respect. They end up abandon and defeated, driven from many ancient lands and increasing oppressed yet again from the time the English come from.
This sort of question will be asked a lot. By the Greeks, the Persians who also hear of multiple defeats and occupations and the loss of their literature and religion and the Carthaginians among the obvious. Even the Macedonians and Romans will be concerned that their period of conquest and success ends with defeat, destruction, loss of religion and culture their proud of. Some of the latter two groups will see it as a sign that "the gods are with us as we're destined to rule vast empires even if they fall eventually." Wiser ones will be thinking "all those people we conquered. What the hell are they going to do to avoid that?"
It could also be a bad time to be Jewish as well. Albeit that the vast majority live under the Achaemenid dynasty which has a reputation for being pretty tolerant.
There are also a lot of questions that will be raised for the English 'newcomers' both Protestant and Catholic and across various cultural and regional divides.
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Post by raharris1973 on Jul 25, 2024 1:51:07 GMT
One thing you didn't mention is that while the Catholic monarchies, religious institutions and great powers were gone there is a large amount of Catholics in England and Wales. Some of those communities might be eager to look further afield to escape Protestant rule. Especially with the hope of 'rescue' from Catholic Europe gone. The Protestant Catholic divide is a serious issue, and the English population was far from homogeneously or hegemonic ally Protestant in 1560, nor even quite there at the time of Elizabeth's death. I get that religious disputes of faith were deeply felt, and deadly serious, though only super controversial for the prior 26 since 1534. On the other, Catholic-Protestant divides and separate senses of identity were not necessarily as hardened as they would be later, and the removal of the Pope and entire non English ecclesiastical hierarchy, and all European Christian power politics could do a great deal to "lower the temperature" of religious disputes within England, and set grounds for reconciliation. Much of the power stakes are reduced, and discussions become more about theology, practices, and ceremonies, without anybody disputing the King or Queen is the senior Bishop appointing authority on Earth for now. Of course the latter probably won't be too happy with such moves as it would mean Catholic communities beyond their control and also the danger of the technology that was the basis of their superiority would be leaked. Certainly not, I imagine the English government of Elizabeth and her loyal servants and spies under Sir Walsingham would be quite watchful or wary of any elite self-exiles trying to set off and set up their own shingle in any renegade statelets. Especially in the British Isles or the European continent of course, but even overseas, though renegades might find it easier to get lost and not be found overseas. Some of those might seek such refuge further afield than that and here the Pilgrim fathers might be Catholic ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) although their numbers are going to be very few and the more primitive settlements and populations in N America would reduce the level of support Point taken, North America is a potential refuge, further away from where the Pope they are loyal to is *not*, but one where pursuit and destruction is less certain, but affecting the home country from there is more difficult.
There are also a lot of questions that will be raised for the English 'newcomers' both Protestant and Catholic Certainly, but keep in mind, it is important not to read back in time some of the hardened identities and divides of the sects that might be more subject to reconciliation of the vast majority of clergy and lay people under the extraordinary circumstances *all* English people and *all* Christians of whatever theological and apostolic preference find themselves in. See good references here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AnglicanismFrom the above in particular, full-blown Puritan theology/ideology and definite polarization into Low Church and High Church factions hadn't occurred yet: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Common_PrayerI would also note that on the Counter-Reformation Front, as of 1560, the Council of Trent had *started* its work, but not completed it (that would be 1563). Wikipedia does not date the French Wars of Religion to until 1562 (and no St. Bartholomew's Day massacre until 1572). And the Dutch Revolt not breaking out until 1566. The main religious wars or governmental strife thus far had been the quite brief Schmalkaldic War of 1546-47 in Germany, turmoil associated with Henry's Church dispossession moves and Mary's Protestant persecutions in England. Also the Keppel War in Switzerland where Zwingli was killed. Charles V and Martin Luther in their lifetimes spent of lot of time while confronting each other also negotiating, maneuvering, resisting actual war, while not compromising, with Charles working on other higher priority military tasks than Protestant suppression.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 25, 2024 8:40:29 GMT
On the issue of unhappy Catholics seeking refuge in the Americas its less to be a future threat to Protestant England than to simply live under their own rule.
In terms of relationships between the two branches - and everywhere in between there was a cooling of tension after the later stages of Henry VIII, then King Edward and Queen Mary respective more extreme approaches but both groups did feel threatened by the other. Under Queen Elizabeth this was moderated a fair bit but the tension is still there. With the loss of the rest of the Christian world those should ease a fair bit on the Protestant side as their a lot more secure but there's still likely to be a fair amount of fear and distrust. It never again reached the sort of bloody levels of violence as on the continent - at least not in England - but there are likely to be unhappy people.
Steve
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Post by raharris1973 on Aug 1, 2024 2:55:38 GMT
On the issue of unhappy Catholics seeking refuge in the Americas its less to be a future threat to Protestant England than to simply live under their own rule. I get it, and emigration is logical for the purpose of simple escape and refuge alone, even without an intent to make a triumphant comeback. In terms of relationships between the two branches - and everywhere in between there was a cooling of tension after the later stages of Henry VIII, then King Edward and Queen Mary respective more extreme approaches but both groups did feel threatened by the other. Under Queen Elizabeth this was moderated a fair bit but the tension is still there. With the loss of the rest of the Christian world those should ease a fair bit on the Protestant side as their a lot more secure but there's still likely to be a fair amount of fear and distrust. It never again reached the sort of bloody levels of violence as on the continent - at least not in England - but there are likely to be unhappy people. I'm not sure this reads of the arc of sectarian conflict, the hardening of separate, irreconcilable Protestant and Catholic identities in England and the British Isles, and English anti-Catholic paranoia and Catholic's paranoia and persecution complex, entirely accurately. Especially if we consider things beyond mere numbers of violent acts or judicially ordered penalties, or high clergy martyrs, and consider the British Isles as a whole, and not just England itself. The Battle of Boyne and religiously inflected Irish plantations and Protestant ascendancy in Ireland and Protestant Wind all remain ahead. It just seems to me that, in practice, Catholic dissidents, who can't abide the Church of England and the bastard Elizabeth as Queen and head of the Church with such passion they have to flee England have crap options in a pagan world, and high temptation to reconcile. There is no Christian Church, no Churches, no Congregations, no Churches, Bishops, Priests, and no Pope outside of England. Don't believe it? Visit the Vestal Virgins in Rome who've never heard of Jesus or the high priests of the Persian satrapy of Judea who've never heard of him either. If traveling and settling among, and hopefully converting, heathens, committed English Catholics would have to carry any liturgical works, relics, altars, consecrated priests, monks, nuns, with them into places that would be comparative wilderness and frighteningly unknown and unfamiliar to Englishmen.....on behalf of a Pope, and Cardinals and Bishops that are no longer on this earth. They will be highly dependent on their class of people ordained and trained to administer all the sacraments and with the full working knowledge of Church Latin, to keep up the full Latin Rite and liturgy that keeps them distinct from the Church of England. But they're comparatively smaller numbers, and rustic exile settings will prevent them from matching the splendor of home cathedrals for a generation or more. They won't have the wealth and diversity of craftsmen and supporting infrastructure to "go for baroque". Ironically their exiled Catholic chapels could end up like rather austere Congregationalist Churches and Quaker Meeting houses, and they may need to de facto adopt many Protestant habits and rely on lay people to continue different types of services and traditions in the absence of sufficient consecrated priests. In the meantime, Church of England propaganda will try to propagate the unity and brotherhood of Christians, urging everyone to come home to the Church, and the English people to show the people of the world the way with one voice. The Church of England is both at the same time the Church of the Kingdom and Universal and Catholic. While suspicions will linger, obedient CoE Bishops and Priests will be talking a lot about forgiveness, grace and bygones being bygones. The extraordinary ISOT event will create a "permission structure" for many people to compromise or reconcile on theological and ecclesiastical matters they would not have been able to otherwise.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 1, 2024 10:21:04 GMT
On the issue of unhappy Catholics seeking refuge in the Americas its less to be a future threat to Protestant England than to simply live under their own rule. I get it, and emigration is logical for the purpose of simple escape and refuge alone, even without an intent to make a triumphant comeback. In terms of relationships between the two branches - and everywhere in between there was a cooling of tension after the later stages of Henry VIII, then King Edward and Queen Mary respective more extreme approaches but both groups did feel threatened by the other. Under Queen Elizabeth this was moderated a fair bit but the tension is still there. With the loss of the rest of the Christian world those should ease a fair bit on the Protestant side as their a lot more secure but there's still likely to be a fair amount of fear and distrust. It never again reached the sort of bloody levels of violence as on the continent - at least not in England - but there are likely to be unhappy people. I'm not sure this reads of the arc of sectarian conflict, the hardening of separate, irreconcilable Protestant and Catholic identities in England and the British Isles, and English anti-Catholic paranoia and Catholic's paranoia and persecution complex, entirely accurately. Especially if we consider things beyond mere numbers of violent acts or judicially ordered penalties, or high clergy martyrs, and consider the British Isles as a whole, and not just England itself. The Battle of Boyne and religiously inflected Irish plantations and Protestant ascendancy in Ireland and Protestant Wind all remain ahead. It just seems to me that, in practice, Catholic dissidents, who can't abide the Church of England and the bastard Elizabeth as Queen and head of the Church with such passion they have to flee England have crap options in a pagan world, and high temptation to reconcile. There is no Christian Church, no Churches, no Congregations, no Churches, Bishops, Priests, and no Pope outside of England. Don't believe it? Visit the Vestal Virgins in Rome who've never heard of Jesus or the high priests of the Persian satrapy of Judea who've never heard of him either. If traveling and settling among, and hopefully converting, heathens, committed English Catholics would have to carry any liturgical works, relics, altars, consecrated priests, monks, nuns, with them into places that would be comparative wilderness and frighteningly unknown and unfamiliar to Englishmen.....on behalf of a Pope, and Cardinals and Bishops that are no longer on this earth. They will be highly dependent on their class of people ordained and trained to administer all the sacraments and with the full working knowledge of Church Latin, to keep up the full Latin Rite and liturgy that keeps them distinct from the Church of England. But they're comparatively smaller numbers, and rustic exile settings will prevent them from matching the splendor of home cathedrals for a generation or more. They won't have the wealth and diversity of craftsmen and supporting infrastructure to "go for baroque". Ironically their exiled Catholic chapels could end up like rather austere Congregationalist Churches and Quaker Meeting houses, and they may need to de facto adopt many Protestant habits and rely on lay people to continue different types of services and traditions in the absence of sufficient consecrated priests. In the meantime, Church of England propaganda will try to propagate the unity and brotherhood of Christians, urging everyone to come home to the Church, and the English people to show the people of the world the way with one voice. The Church of England is both at the same time the Church of the Kingdom and Universal and Catholic. While suspicions will linger, obedient CoE Bishops and Priests will be talking a lot about forgiveness, grace and bygones being bygones. The extraordinary ISOT event will create a "permission structure" for many people to compromise or reconcile on theological and ecclesiastical matters they would not have been able to otherwise.
In general agreement although a bit confused on this comment. Since the ISOT only includes England and Wales there are no Catholics in Ireland and relatively small numbers of pagan 'barbarians' . Its likely that the English monarchy will seek to bring Ireland under their control for both political reasons and also geographical ones as they would secure Ireland for settlement and also remove any problem of piracy from the island.
The issue of most/all Catholics accepting some sort of reconciliation with the CofE will I suspect be the primacy of the monarchy in the latter which will be deeply unpopular to the established clergy and aristocracy of the English Catholics. I think a lot might well accept reunion under CofE but there will definitely be those who reject it. I wonder how they would go about electing a new Pope when I assume there isn't a single cardinal among them?
As you say a Catholic church in exile - both from a Rome that is totally alien to them and from their English home - is going to be very weak and devout and could end up looking more like some stories from the early church and the Franciscan ideas of a humble and very fugal community.
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Post by raharris1973 on Aug 1, 2024 12:48:19 GMT
although a bit confused on this comment. Since the ISOT only includes England and Wales there are no Catholics in Ireland and relatively small numbers of pagan 'barbarians' . My point with my comment and references to later events in the British Isles, especially Ireland, hinting at the campaigns of the wars of ECW and wars of the three kingdoms, the Glorious Revolution, plantations and Protestant Ascendancy, is that this all meant another two-hundred years of England fighting Catholic enemies in OTL, foreign and domestic, in which to further "other-ize" Catholicism and and intertwine its own patriotism with Protestantism. In this ATL, none of that is happening, England, under a pretty solid Elizabethan-Walsingham-ian administration, has no enemies in the world, much less its neighborhood of its class. It will be reshaping and redefining its immediate security environment in Scotland, Isle of Man and Ireland, and likely across the straits of Dover, Normandy and Brittany, rather rapidly and with ease, conquering and overawe-ing local pagan peoples, swamping them with numbers, converting survivors to the "right" CoE form of Christianity, and basically thoroughly immigrating them into Tudor England without continuous cultivated traditions of national defiance against England, and without strong anti-English patrons. The existence of an evil Papist other threatening Merrie England will alongside foreign tyrannical Kings will be less important to England's identity, England's identity will be more about glorious expansion, trade, expanding the light of civilization and Christianity, defeating and holding back vicious and uncouth, but ultimately rather weak, and spiritually unchallenging primitives.
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Post by simon darkshade on Aug 3, 2024 6:00:14 GMT
By focusing on relations with Catholics and the opinion of Greeks, the largest point is being missed: Religion England at this time was an extremely religious society, an extremely Christian society. Law, parliament, public culture, literature - all manner of things needed to be viewed through the prism of English Christianity. There is something of trend elsewhere where modern atheist or agnostic people regard religion as something of a side issue rather than the central one of the time; here Steve and Raharris are on the right track in his most recent posts above. They have been transported back in time in what would only be seen as an Act of God, inspiring a divine mission. Papists no longer matter, as there is no Pope, nor Catholic Church beyond the few in hiding. What is there is the Holy Land under pagan domination, with the literal People of the Book. Beyond that complication is that this is a Christian nation before Christ. That will provide a huge question to many of the faithful and indeed something of a crisis. This will affect the policy of Queen Elizabeth with regard to expansion. (As a postscript, it is "Sir + Christian name" and "Lord + Surname", not "Sir Walsingham" or the travesty I've seen elsewhere - "Sir Churchill" ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) )
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 3, 2024 10:27:49 GMT
although a bit confused on this comment. Since the ISOT only includes England and Wales there are no Catholics in Ireland and relatively small numbers of pagan 'barbarians' . My point with my comment and references to later events in the British Isles, especially Ireland, hinting at the campaigns of the wars of ECW and wars of the three kingdoms, the Glorious Revolution, plantations and Protestant Ascendancy, is that this all meant another two-hundred years of England fighting Catholic enemies in OTL, foreign and domestic, in which to further "other-ize" Catholicism and and intertwine its own patriotism with Protestantism. In this ATL, none of that is happening, England, under a pretty solid Elizabethan-Walsingham-ian administration, has no enemies in the world, much less its neighborhood of its class. It will be reshaping and redefining its immediate security environment in Scotland, Isle of Man and Ireland, and likely across the straits of Dover, Normandy and Brittany, rather rapidly and with ease, conquering and overawe-ing local pagan peoples, swamping them with numbers, converting survivors to the "right" CoE form of Christianity, and basically thoroughly immigrating them into Tudor England without continuous cultivated traditions of national defiance against England, and without strong anti-English patrons. The existence of an evil Papist other threatening Merrie England will alongside foreign tyrannical Kings will be less important to England's identity, England's identity will be more about glorious expansion, trade, expanding the light of civilization and Christianity, defeating and holding back vicious and uncouth, but ultimately rather weak, and spiritually unchallenging primitives.
OK thanks for clarifying.
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Post by raharris1973 on Aug 4, 2024 17:07:49 GMT
Alas the bard (Shakespeare) was not born until 1564, a few years after the ISOT event. Hopefully, the ISOT event, which will start changing the work and daily lives of Londoners, the Queen's Court, people in the port cities and on the northern border, will take longer to ripple out and dramatically change the daily, and nightly lives of people in interior towns like Stratford-on-Avon, and the family of Mr. and Mrs. Shakespeare. And hopefully, they'll still have a male child, who won't be *our* William Shakespeare exactly, but might be a near identical twin, who survives infancy, gets a similar literary and poetic education, has similar talents, and grows up to become a successful playwright and showman. No doubt, he....and other Elizabethan dramatists, would have other interesting subjects to write about. I will reference some useful background information for everyone - Here are some maps showing Italy about this time, the Roman Republic's domain was basically Latium/Lazio, the latter-day Patrimony of St. Peter, plus coastal Campania and the location of Neapolis aka Naples, at this point in time right after it won the Latin War: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Italy_IV_century_BC_-_Latina.svgLatin War - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org This was Rome's follow-on expansion trajectory, more widely over Italy: File:Roman conquest of Italy.PNG - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org Roman Republic | Definition, Dates, History, Government, Map, & Facts Roman Republic, the ancient state centered on the city of Rome that began in 509 BCE, when the Romans replaced their monarchy with elected magistrates, and lasted until 27 BCE, when the Roman Empire was established. It expanded through conquest and colonization and became a major power of the... www.britannica.com www.britannica.comMacedon by 336 BC at the death of Philip II would have a hegemony over Greece, looking like this: Expansion of Macedonia under Philip II - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org replacing the earlier, 360s BC, Theban hegemony en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:362BCThebanHegemony.pngHere is a broad, Mediterranean-wide view of the Med, from 10 years after the event - 330 BC, so post Alexander: The Roman Conquest of the Mediterranean explorethemed.com
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Post by raharris1973 on Aug 4, 2024 17:10:04 GMT
RELIGION.............RELIGION....
RELIGION!
Well, about that...
Stellar observations, contact with lands outside English boundaries themselves with people speaking Celtic tongues, confirmed with even greater precision after merchant exploratory voyaging to the Mediterranean, Italy/Rome, Greece, Egypt, the Holy Land and Persia will absolutely confirm that England has been sent back before the time of Christ, but to a time about which there is a decent amount of Classical and Old Testament writing about, especially in the central and eastern Mediterranean.
Churchmen of England can certainly put that in their pipe and smoke it!
It will be in their personal, material, political, social, psychological self-interest to come up with reasons and justifications, no matter how convoluted or arcane, why Christians should still worship Christ and God in the Trinitarian form despite Christ neither being born nor crucified as man yet.
Churchmen will worry about 'Judaizing' heresies, among Christians in general and their own ranks, and there will be secret practitioners of the idea and some public advocates of it who will be likely punished as heretics. The Bishops and any Cardinals and Archbishops gather together any Church scholars to come up, quickly with anticipatory arguments and explanation for why, even though they now living apparently in the world 60 years before the Crucifixion of Jesus, his sacrifice for our sins, and the replacement of the Old Testament covenant, the best way to worship God right not is still to worship the Holy Trinity including the as yet unborn and uncrucified Jesus (perhaps he's somehow eternally born and crucified?) and live for the next 60 years under the Old Testament covenant as Orthodox Jews.
Out of the people who actually attempt to do any Judaizing or imitation of Old Testament living, openly or secretly, it would be mainly a batch of baptized Christians doing cosplay s Jews/Israelites/Hebrews, using Biblical sources or found Jewish books for guidance.
This is because Jews still technically were not legally permitted in England, ever since their expulsion by medieval Norman Kings. The ban likely was not airtight in the increasingly complex and interconnected economy of late Henrician and early Elizabethan England, so there probably actually were some people arguably Jewish or born Jewish in England, numbering anywhere from the single digits to 50 or so, who may have be Spanish or Portuguese Jewish-born merchant conversos/New Christians, Italian bankers either converted, crypto-Jewish, or simply only practicing worship quietly at home, possibly a similar situation for a few Provencal, French or Rhenish Jews in commerce but religiously on the "down-low".
Now don't blow this "Judaizing" or Old Testament nostalgia idea out of proportion. I do not think this would be a mass movement of any sort. A 'Judaizing' heresy would probably never amount to small groups in some towns or universities, never getting larger than a dozen people, before getting found out and suppressed. Basically it would be just enough to motivate some out of proportion moral panics and justify the CoE putting out explanations for how and why it still makes sense to be believing Christians before the historical Jesus Christ.
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Post by raharris1973 on Aug 4, 2024 17:14:37 GMT
I thought of an important, a very, very important implication of the absence of other 1560 AD Christian Kingdoms back timing alongside England-Wales to the the 340 BC era, that nobody has mentioned before:
This also means no Scotland. Which means no James Stuart. Which means the successor/succession to Queen Elizabeth is completely different and likely doesn't lead to Stuarts!
There are no foreign, but related, monarchs to bequeath the throne to upon her death.
On the one hand, no foreign Kings to conspire with her sister and English Catholics to dethrone her, or provide external support for people with distant claimants. But this could raise the anxiety level about Elizabeth remaining unmarried and childless to a whole new level, and motivate conspiracies against her based on on her stubborn refusal to wed from among the best pedigreed suitors among the English nobility.
But she had perfectly good personal self-preservational reasons to not wed and not get pregnant. She would still be able to name a successor on her deathbed presuming she survives in power into old age and natural death, but there may be a much larger risk without her choice already being a King with loyal Ministers and a national army of his own that her choice may be contested and succession is unstable.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 4, 2024 22:38:38 GMT
Alas the bard (Shakespeare) was not born until 1564, a few years after the ISOT event. Hopefully, the ISOT event, which will start changing the work and daily lives of Londoners, the Queen's Court, people in the port cities and on the northern border, will take longer to ripple out and dramatically change the daily, and nightly lives of people in interior towns like Stratford-on-Avon, and the family of Mr. and Mrs. Shakespeare. And hopefully, they'll still have a male child, who won't be *our* William Shakespeare exactly, but might be a near identical twin, who survives infancy, gets a similar literary and poetic education, has similar talents, and grows up to become a successful playwright and showman. No doubt, he....and other Elizabethan dramatists, would have other interesting subjects to write about. I will reference some useful background information for everyone - Here are some maps showing Italy about this time, the Roman Republic's domain was basically Latium/Lazio, the latter-day Patrimony of St. Peter, plus coastal Campania and the location of Neapolis aka Naples, at this point in time right after it won the Latin War: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Italy_IV_century_BC_-_Latina.svgLatin War - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org This was Rome's follow-on expansion trajectory, more widely over Italy: File:Roman conquest of Italy.PNG - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org Roman Republic | Definition, Dates, History, Government, Map, & Facts Roman Republic, the ancient state centered on the city of Rome that began in 509 BCE, when the Romans replaced their monarchy with elected magistrates, and lasted until 27 BCE, when the Roman Empire was established. It expanded through conquest and colonization and became a major power of the... www.britannica.com www.britannica.comMacedon by 336 BC at the death of Philip II would have a hegemony over Greece, looking like this: Expansion of Macedonia under Philip II - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org replacing the earlier, 360s BC, Theban hegemony en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:362BCThebanHegemony.pngHere is a broad, Mediterranean-wide view of the Med, from 10 years after the event - 330 BC, so post Alexander: The Roman Conquest of the Mediterranean explorethemed.com
A couple of those links aren't working, for the Roman expansion and then the broader Med in 330BC. However the others show how relatively fluid the situation was in Greece and how relatively unimportant Rome was at this point.
I do wonder what a few freebooters looking for loot/trade/adventure could do in the area, intentionally or not in making massive changes. If Philip's conquest of Greece was to be butterflied that could totally change the history of the region as it could well butterfly Alexander and his conquests being a possibility.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 4, 2024 22:53:15 GMT
I thought of an important, a very, very important implication of the absence of other 1560 AD Christian Kingdoms back timing alongside England-Wales to the the 340 BC era, that nobody has mentioned before: This also means no Scotland. Which means no James Stuart. Which means the successor/succession to Queen Elizabeth is completely different and likely doesn't lead to Stuarts! There are no foreign, but related, monarchs to bequeath the throne to upon her death. On the one hand, no foreign Kings to conspire with her sister and English Catholics to dethrone her, or provide external support for people with distant claimants. But this could raise the anxiety level about Elizabeth remaining unmarried and childless to a whole new level, and motivate conspiracies against her based on on her stubborn refusal to wed from among the best pedigreed suitors among the English nobility. But she had perfectly good personal self-preservational reasons to not wed and not get pregnant. She would still be able to name a successor on her deathbed presuming she survives in power into old age and natural death, but there may be a much larger risk without her choice already being a King with loyal Ministers and a national army of his own that her choice may be contested and succession is unstable.
Good point here! As far as I'm aware its unclear whether Elizabeth could have married and had children or not but the future of the Tudor dynasty is up in the air and as you say there's no foreign options that would be acceptable for religious and other cultural reasons.
As such the issue of the succession is going to be a hot issue pretty much from the start and you could see a lot of nobles maneuvering for power and influence.
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