stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,225
|
Post by stevep on Jul 7, 2023 12:55:42 GMT
Would love to be educated more on this sometime, regarding command errors on the American side in this fight, and which go up to field level, theater command, and national command. Read the Filipino American War thread. It is a "complex" subject about American WWI leadership. Some of the field-grade Americans like Peyton March demonstrated competence. Others like "Blackjack" Pershing were downright stupid idiots.
Interesting article about human stupidity and bigotry but nothing really about Pershing or his stupidity. Very little about what he actually did there, good or bad and a lot about what fanatical fools claimed he did.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,225
|
Post by stevep on Jul 7, 2023 13:04:02 GMT
based on his historical sloppy handling of the Filipino-American War. Would love to be educated more on this sometime, regarding command errors on the American side in this fight, and which go up to field level, theater command, and national command.
In terms of some of the problems the US had in creating a large army for WWI then there's an excellent video here, by Richard S. Faulkner at the US National WWI Museum and Memorial on how building a mass army with minimal experience and trying to equip it for a large scale modern warfare. Very good read and also gives an insight into fighting with a sizeable army in WWI.
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Jul 7, 2023 13:16:10 GMT
Interesting article about human stupidity and bigotry, but nothing really about Pershing or his stupidity. Very little about what he actually did there, good or bad, and a lot about what fanatical fools claimed he did.
You really missed that part about enraging a religiously fervent enemy to persist beyond the normal "I quit" moment? Well, how about Mister Pershing's stint in the Russo-Japanese War as a military observer, where he missed the synergy among barbed wire, LAND MINES, and machine guns? The American NAVAL officers (Marines), got it. Why do you think the USMC hated "Blackjack's" stinking stupid guts?
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,225
|
Post by stevep on Jul 7, 2023 13:32:21 GMT
Interesting article about human stupidity and bigotry, but nothing really about Pershing or his stupidity. Very little about what he actually did there, good or bad, and a lot about what fanatical fools claimed he did.
You really missed that part about enraging a religiously fervent enemy to persist beyond the normal "I quit" moment? Well, how about Mister Pershing's stint in the Russo-Japanese War as a military observer, where he missed the synergy among barbed wire, LAND MINES, and machine guns? The American NAVAL officers (Marines), got it. Why do you think the USMC hated "Blackjack's" stinking stupid guts?
You mean the suggestion that he accepted policies - burying dead Muslim attackers with pig related items - that were reported to subdue Muslim unrest in the region. It may be that this worsened the problem but the information in the article that you linked to suggested the opposite and says nothing to support the argument it strengthened the resistance.
PS - Read the new link and again nothing specifically mentioning Pershing. It mentions that the Marines took heavy losses attacking a defended position because the opposition was underestimated in numbers and as a result the French on the 1st day didn't allocate enough artillery support. Also that the Marine unit was raw without battle experience, with isn't surprising as that was the case for the entire US army at that stage - at least in large scale battles. They were definitely brave and determined men but they were bound to take heavy losses regardless of their training and level of support.
Again I'm not saying your wrong about Pershing's shortcomings as I've seen criticism of him in other sources. However by saying he got something wrong then providing a link that doesn't support that argument you weaken your case.
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Jul 7, 2023 13:48:50 GMT
You really missed that part about enraging a religiously fervent enemy to persist beyond the normal "I quit" moment? Well, how about Mister Pershing's stint in the Russo-Japanese War as a military observer, where he missed the synergy among barbed wire, LAND MINES, and machine guns? The American NAVAL officers (Marines), got it. Why do you think the USMC hated "Blackjack's" stinking stupid guts?
You mean the suggestion that he accepted policies - burying dead Muslim attackers with pig related items - that were reported to subdue Muslim unrest in the region. It may be that this worsened the problem but the information in the article that you linked to suggested the opposite and says nothing to support the argument it strengthened the resistance.
PS - Read the new link and again nothing specifically mentioning Pershing. It mentions that the Marines took heavy losses attacking a defended position because the opposition was underestimated in numbers and as a result the French on the 1st day didn't allocate enough artillery support. Also that the Marine unit was raw without battle experience, with isn't surprising as that was the case for the entire US army at that stage - at least in large scale battles. They were definitely brave and determined men but they were bound to take heavy losses regardless of their training and level of support.
Again I'm not saying your wrong about Pershing's shortcomings as I've seen criticism of him in other sources. However by saying he got something wrong then providing a link that doesn't support that argument you weaken your case.
When I get to those lies in the Filipino American War thread, you can read the actual truth about Pershing and the burial practices. The one thing you did get correct was that the photo-recon was botched at Belleau Wood because nobody bothered to count the German latrine pits. I think that was a problem with TREES? Pershing was given the Marines as part of his local resources. I think the French decision to delay, bleed the Germans down and retire to prepared bomb proofs in the immediate rear was prudent ( Jean Degoutte), but that idiot, James Harbond, issued a stand or die order that allowed the Germans to rain artillery hell down on the hapless Marines. Harbond was a "Friend of Pershing". .
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,988
Likes: 49,390
|
Post by lordroel on Jul 8, 2023 11:14:35 GMT
Thread is about Teddy winning in 1912, so lets focus on that
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Jul 8, 2023 15:41:58 GMT
Teddy Roosevelt and the Moros.Who are the featured "villains"? Teddy Roosevelt, who definitely should have known better but who was lied to by the American army, as Bush was lied to during Iraq, and his, Teddy's, expletive deleted incompetent no-good rotten racist imperialist handpicked general, John Pershing, who did the lying.
|
|