miletus12
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To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Feb 7, 2023 20:36:45 GMT
I think you may be a tad bit mistaken about the illegal settlement west of the Appalachians. web.viu.ca/davies/H320/population.colonies.htmThat link shows that by 1770, there were an estimated 15,700 people in Kentucky. 10 years later, 6 of them prior to the revolution, it was 45,000. With or without consent of the local tribes, it was going to happen. The settlers, in general, were far better at staying alive than the Indians were at killing them. Yes, there were occasional massacres, but the majority of the massacres were settlers massacring Indians, not the other way around. Please note, I can't vouch for the numbers. Its the first thing my google search came up with that had actual numbers rather than a wall o' text, so... your mileage may vary. Belushi TD
Thanks. That was a lot higher than I was thinking. Basically going by the Ohio region and further west where it took the military to clear a path for settlement to occur. If its that high in Kentucky by 1780 then they probably outnumber the surviving Indians in the same region.
Steve
   It is called the Cumberland Gap. Daniel Boone, (Remember him?) took a pioneer party and built a road into Kentucky just before the Revolution. Even more amazing he blazed another road to MISSOURI. Both were done at the behest of the Virginia government The American Revolution built his reputation as he chased the British and their native American allies out of Kentucky. BTW, if you rely on the Britainica article you will find the wrong Richard Henderson named. He was actually this idiot. |
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Post by Max Sinister on Feb 8, 2023 7:49:40 GMT
In the 1770s the colony of New Jersey was the armpit of New England. I'm not American, but I do know that some USians still claim this was true. But I've never been there, just watched Sopranos a bit. |
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Post by Max Sinister on Feb 8, 2023 7:52:06 GMT
Well, the TL goes until the 1980s, so the sepoys aren't deployed immediately.
Don't know about you, but I liked the GURPS AE scenarios. Much more than those from Infinite Worlds. I like long scenarios with many original ideas. Sure, they don't care much about the butterfly effect, but then again, few people do.
I don't know them other than occasional references such as this but I find that scenario - while possibly suitable/required for a specific RPG - not exactly rational or likely.
Because of the treatment the defeated American rebels get ITTL? Hard to say what'd have been the case - do you know some good TLs where the rebellion is actually defeated? At times it came close... did the British government have plans what to do with them? The war was long and bloody, I can't imagine somehow that the Brits would have been very mild. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 8, 2023 16:24:13 GMT
I don't know them other than occasional references such as this but I find that scenario - while possibly suitable/required for a specific RPG - not exactly rational or likely.
Because of the treatment the defeated American rebels get ITTL? Hard to say what'd have been the case - do you know some good TLs where the rebellion is actually defeated? At times it came close... did the British government have plans what to do with them? The war was long and bloody, I can't imagine somehow that the Brits would have been very mild.
If the war is long and bloody then its likely to be a harsher treatment especially of the main ringleaders. Civil wars that aren't over quickly tend to get nasty but if one side is defeated quickly it depends on the people involved. If its fairly short, as suggested in TTL then its likely to be a lot more tolerant, as in the period pre-1776 when Britain often made concessions to the assorted groups causing unrest in the colonies. Despite their often violent actions.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Feb 8, 2023 17:47:28 GMT
Because of the treatment the defeated American rebels get ITTL? Hard to say what'd have been the case - do you know some good TLs where the rebellion is actually defeated? At times it came close... did the British government have plans what to do with them? The war was long and bloody, I can't imagine somehow that the Brits would have been very mild.
If the war is long and bloody then its likely to be a harsher treatment especially of the main ringleaders. Civil wars that aren't over quickly tend to get nasty but if one side is defeated quickly it depends on the people involved. If its fairly short, as suggested in TTL then its likely to be a lot more tolerant, as in the period pre-1776 when Britain often made concessions to the assorted groups causing unrest in the colonies. Despite their often violent actions.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 8, 2023 18:11:34 GMT
If the war is long and bloody then its likely to be a harsher treatment especially of the main ringleaders. Civil wars that aren't over quickly tend to get nasty but if one side is defeated quickly it depends on the people involved. If its fairly short, as suggested in TTL then its likely to be a lot more tolerant, as in the period pre-1776 when Britain often made concessions to the assorted groups causing unrest in the colonies. Despite their often violent actions.
What about them? That was pretty much SOP for POWs in many areas at the time and especially with bases on land being insecure. It was a time when prisoners were often kept in appalling conditions all around the world. Given the behaviour of the rebels both before and during the open revolution when torture and murder were used to suppression opposition.
Not sure why you chose to censor details you know to be accurate?
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
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Post by miletus12 on Feb 8, 2023 18:38:14 GMT
What about them? That was pretty much SOP for POWs in many areas at the time and especially with bases on land being insecure. It was a time when prisoners were often kept in appalling conditions all around the world. Given the behaviour of the rebels both before and during the open revolution when torture and murder were used to suppression opposition.
Not sure why you chose to censor details you know to be accurate?
, Steve. I am from NEW YORK. We actually learn and teach history here. Even the BRITISH thought they were barbarous. |
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Post by diamondstorm on Feb 28, 2023 3:30:10 GMT
Actually, you know how I said the French Revolution would be averted or at least delayed by a couple of decades? Actually, now that I think about it, it might also depend on what goes in the Netherlands as a result of a defeated American Revolution since their own revolution helped inspire the French Revolution which itself was inspired by America (and the Dutch loss in the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War).
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 28, 2023 12:48:26 GMT
Actually, you know how I said the French Revolution would be averted or at least delayed by a couple of decades? Actually, now that I think about it, it might also depend on what goes in the Netherlands as a result of a defeated American Revolution since their own revolution helped inspire the French Revolution which itself was inspired by America (and the Dutch loss in the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War). Are you talking about the unrest ~1780-87 where there was widespread opposition to the House of Orange and near civil war until the Prussians intervened in support of the monarchists. See here:
Digging a bit deeper there is a lot more about it here. There was growing dissatisfaction with the House of Orange and the perceived incompetence and corruption and even if the American revolution had been quickly crushed and the Dutch avoided their fairly disastrous involvement in the war against Britain from 1780 I suspect something would have exploded. When and what was the status of France would probably have been the big issues. If it looks like the Dutch 'revolution' might succeed in overthrowing the monarchy I would suspect an intervention to prevent this as OTL. Prussia would definitely support such a move and also would an ancient regime France, although they might clash over influence in the resultant state. However a France with an ongoing revolution or say a moderate reform could be a different matter, which could in itself trigger a wider war.
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Post by diamondstorm on Mar 11, 2023 16:15:53 GMT
Actually, you know how I said the French Revolution would be averted or at least delayed by a couple of decades? Actually, now that I think about it, it might also depend on what goes in the Netherlands as a result of a defeated American Revolution since their own revolution helped inspire the French Revolution which itself was inspired by America (and the Dutch loss in the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War). Are you talking about the unrest ~1780-87 where there was widespread opposition to the House of Orange and near civil war until the Prussians intervened in support of the monarchists. See here:
Digging a bit deeper there is a lot more about it here. There was growing dissatisfaction with the House of Orange and the perceived incompetence and corruption and even if the American revolution had been quickly crushed and the Dutch avoided their fairly disastrous involvement in the war against Britain from 1780 I suspect something would have exploded. When and what was the status of France would probably have been the big issues. If it looks like the Dutch 'revolution' might succeed in overthrowing the monarchy I would suspect an intervention to prevent this as OTL. Prussia would definitely support such a move and also would an ancient regime France, although they might clash over influence in the resultant state. However a France with an ongoing revolution or say a moderate reform could be a different matter, which could in itself trigger a wider war.
On the other hand, a defeated American War of Independence may mean the British support Portugal in the Spanish-Portuguese War which in turn may bring in France to support Spain and THAT could trigger a broader Anglo-French conflict even without continental North America. I can see the Netherlands committing to armed neutrality like IOTL to avoid involvement and likewise Britain invoking a bunch of treaties with the Netherlands to get them involved on their side but failing. If the British do catch the Netherlands trying to trade with rivaling powers then war could be declared anyway and they could try to go after the Cape Colony much like IOTL. Does that make sense? |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 12, 2023 12:56:00 GMT
Are you talking about the unrest ~1780-87 where there was widespread opposition to the House of Orange and near civil war until the Prussians intervened in support of the monarchists. See here:
Digging a bit deeper there is a lot more about it here. There was growing dissatisfaction with the House of Orange and the perceived incompetence and corruption and even if the American revolution had been quickly crushed and the Dutch avoided their fairly disastrous involvement in the war against Britain from 1780 I suspect something would have exploded. When and what was the status of France would probably have been the big issues. If it looks like the Dutch 'revolution' might succeed in overthrowing the monarchy I would suspect an intervention to prevent this as OTL. Prussia would definitely support such a move and also would an ancient regime France, although they might clash over influence in the resultant state. However a France with an ongoing revolution or say a moderate reform could be a different matter, which could in itself trigger a wider war.
On the other hand, a defeated American War of Independence may mean the British support Portugal in the Spanish-Portuguese War which in turn may bring in France to support Spain and THAT could trigger a broader Anglo-French conflict even without continental North America. I can see the Netherlands committing to armed neutrality like IOTL to avoid involvement and likewise Britain invoking a bunch of treaties with the Netherlands to get them involved on their side but failing. If the British do catch the Netherlands trying to trade with rivaling powers then war could be declared anyway and they could try to go after the Cape Colony much like IOTL. Does that make sense?
I don't know enough about the situation in the Netherlands to tell but if the US revolution is quickly crushed as suggested and that delays a French collapse another dynastic war is more than likely. As well as the differing alliances - Britain/Portugal and France/Spain there were other issues, especially with Spain on the NW N America region and the Falklands Islands for instance. [Another matter with Britain keeping all its N American possessions might be access to the Mississippi which IIRC was supposed to be open to traders from both nations but the Spanish sought to block its use by Britain - which would include the southern colonists here]. It could also be a mainly maritime one as Austria and Prussia are likely to be happy to sit this one out.
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