miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Oct 27, 2022 18:05:35 GMT
My only comment about the so called Russian victory over the Japanese at Khalkin Gol was a combination of two factors. Lots of Russians and too few Japanese, and an incompetent Japanese ground forces commander. The Russians lost the air battle BADLY, while the idiot Japanese ground commander would not follow Japanese army doctrine for anti-tank warfare.
The Russians still had 25,000 soldiers killed to 9,000 Japanese and lost 5 times as much material (tanks and planes) as the Japanese. Remember Zhukov was on DEFENSE while it was the incompetent Masaomi Yasuoka who was attacking in violation of his own government's direct order not to provoke an incident.
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Post by American hist on Oct 28, 2022 2:48:20 GMT
As for the results of the treaty of equal rights, here is the vote the Votes for racial equality Woodrow Wilson was still suffering the effects of Spanish flue, so he wasn't at his top shape for arguing and was confused. Woodrow Wilson argued racial equality was a divisive proposal, but if it had been unanimous, he would have been favorable. I think that had in a pod where Wilson brought his planned idealism through a national alliance world government body or agreement before Germany even surrendered, there would have been enough ground for japan to be made equal such as the other western nations. I think japan would have made sure they were paid upfront along with other deals in the future to be reasonably negotiated, such as trade and immigration restrictions. It is a wonder if japan wasn't snubbed would it have helped butterfly world war 2? |
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Post by American hist on Oct 28, 2022 5:16:10 GMT
alternate-timelines.com/threads/recent/4530 Im sure Italy would have been very appreciative of Japan's military support. Japan indeed has mountian ranges which i could imagian troops from those regions could be sent first thing to help the Italians
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 28, 2022 13:00:56 GMT
As for the results of the treaty of equal rights, here is the vote the Votes for racial equality Woodrow Wilson was still suffering the effects of Spanish flue, so he wasn't at his top shape for arguing and was confused. Woodrow Wilson argued racial equality was a divisive proposal, but if it had been unanimous, he would have been favorable. I think that had in a pod where Wilson brought his planned idealism through a national alliance world government body or agreement before Germany even surrendered, there would have been enough ground for japan to be made equal such as the other western nations. I think japan would have made sure they were paid upfront along with other deals in the future to be reasonably negotiated, such as trade and immigration restrictions. It is a wonder if japan wasn't snubbed would it have helped butterfly world war 2?
I think you have a faulty link there as it just loops back to this same thread.
Steve
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Post by American hist on Oct 28, 2022 16:26:08 GMT
As for the results of the treaty of equal rights, here is the vote the Votes for racial equality Woodrow Wilson was still suffering the effects of Spanish flue, so he wasn't at his top shape for arguing and was confused. Woodrow Wilson argued racial equality was a divisive proposal, but if it had been unanimous, he would have been favorable. I think that had in a pod where Wilson brought his planned idealism through a national alliance world government body or agreement before Germany even surrendered, there would have been enough ground for japan to be made equal such as the other western nations. I think japan would have made sure they were paid upfront along with other deals in the future to be reasonably negotiated, such as trade and immigration restrictions. It is a wonder if japan wasn't snubbed would it have helped butterfly world war 2? I think you have a faulty link there as it just loops back to this same thread. Steve
Sorry here it is. I am strongly believing that equals could’ve been edited and clarification used saying at least to all European and asian powers . It is true that subjects of the empires were treated differently based off of their race and ethnicity in the British empire. Well someone could point out Ireland’s oppression by the British this had to do with largely their religion and to lesser extent their culture. And British India the Sikhs were well respected for their contributions to the British army. Gandhi haddid first advocated for reform in the British empire not secession from it. Gandhi is someone who I could imagine would generate public support for better treatment and equality to people of Asia but not Africans given his prejudice. |
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Post by American hist on Oct 28, 2022 17:14:27 GMT
There is a saying one spark sets a fire and if you give an edge they’ll go for a mile. However while I don’t think africans would be treated equally under hypothetical alternatives of history I do think this would plant seeds. In ww1 the West Indian (Caribbean) served with vallor particularly on the Western front but had a greater usage in hotter climates. Although it wasn’t a revolutionary concept that colonial soldiers served with gallantry. It is also true that during the scramble for Africa Europeans were challenged by these native Africans and sometimes lost Such as the Italian Ethiopian war. It is different for you to treat a different power with respect or even equal them to have a wide flood of subject with totally different cultures and skin colors to come live in your homeland . I however see that I might be do you well in the conversation but I do believe if Japan is treated as an equal soon after while there perhaps won’t be immediate equality there will be reform and better treatment toward other racial groups.
While The Native Americans were the group traded the worst they were not segregated like African-American units of the United States and Canada Same was true with Asian and Mexican American groups
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 28, 2022 17:58:52 GMT
I think you have a faulty link there as it just loops back to this same thread. Steve
Sorry here it is. I am strongly believing that equals could’ve been edited and clarification saying at least to all European and asian powers It is true that subjects of the empires were treated differently based off of their race and ethnicity in the British empire. Well someone could point out Ireland’s oppression by the British this had to do with largely their religion and to lesser extent their culture. And British India the Sikhs were well respected for their contributions to the British army. Gandhi how did first advocated for reform in the British empire not secession from it. Gandhi is someone who I could imagine would generate public support for better treatment and equality to people of Asia but not Africans given his prejudice.
Many thanks. Interesting read and gives more details on the issue. Sounds like the problem for the British empire was largely Australia. 
Interesting that Belgium, although not present also had two votes like the other major powers rather than the other less powerful ones. Given how battered Belgium was in the war this was possibly some compensation/sympathy over that.
By this time of course British discrimination related to the Irish 'nationalists' had long ended. Although it was still a sore point given the ongoing violence in the island. |
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Oct 28, 2022 18:43:28 GMT
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Post by American hist on Oct 28, 2022 22:19:47 GMT
It a shame I had a draft ,but it got deleted by mistake. You are almost citing current day politics and at the very least useing irrelevant information ℹ️ . The scot Irish have been in Northern Ireland since the early medieval 🏰 ages although most Scott Irish ☘️ and northern English came in the 17 century. A distinctive culture had been set up by the Scott Irish And it’s people even worked to cooperate among the local Irish exchanging and adapting from each other. It’s the Anglo Irish who I recall were more British centric and snobbish. History isn’t all black and white as it appears and we are derailing the original topic. Some one can adapt one’s culture,but to assimilate is more difficult when they have the unapproved color as seen by other people. So let’s switch back to Japan 🇯🇵 and not Ireland . Depending on how someone defines discrimination against the Irish |
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Oct 28, 2022 23:28:44 GMT
By this time of course British discrimination related to the Irish 'nationalists' had long ended. You are almost citing current day politics and at the very least useing irrelevant information The statement was made that British discrimination against Irish nationalism had ended. I pointed out that this was not the case down to at least 1985. If you would like to dispute that this is not the case, I would be interested, but it will take a different thread. In the case of the Japanese, British modern racism was more or less conflated against the east Asians by their attitudes they also held toward south Asians and Middle Easterners and Africans and other "colonials" in general. If you ask a modern Briton what he thinks about Japan, she or he may remember Singapore and the Burma railroad. It affects the thinking. In WWI this had not happened yet, but just as the Americans would massacre residents of African American Wallstreet by aerial bombing in Omaha in 1921 because of the Wilson / KKK legacies: because of their colonialist imperialist mindsets, the British common polity, who did not like immigrants, were firebombing Chinese laundries and Japanese tailor shops in Cardiff in 1911 because of "attitudes" and Murph help you if you were a East Asian sailor on the Liverpool docks among the English common seamen! This is British history. Which is not well taught or acknowledged down to the present. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 29, 2022 12:36:05 GMT
By this time of course British discrimination related to the Irish 'nationalists' had long ended. You are almost citing current day politics and at the very least useing irrelevant information The statement was made that British discrimination against Irish nationalism had ended. I pointed out that this was not the case down to at least 1985. If you would like to dispute that this is not the case, I would be interested, but it will take a different thread. In the case of the Japanese, British modern racism was more or less conflated against the east Asians by their attitudes they also held toward south Asians and Middle Easterners and Africans and other "colonials" in general. If you ask a modern Briton what he thinks about Japan, she or he may remember Singapore and the Burma railroad. It affects the thinking. In WWI this had not happened yet, but just as the Americans would massacre residents of African American Wallstreet by aerial bombing in Omaha in 1921 because of the Wilson / KKK legacies: because of their colonialist imperialist mindsets, the British common polity, who did not like immigrants, were firebombing Chinese laundries and Japanese tailor shops in Cardiff in 1911 because of "attitudes" and Murph help you if you were a East Asian sailor on the Liverpool docks among the English common seamen! This is British history. Which is not well taught or acknowledged down to the present.
Actually that is wrong. As usual with you and British history.
Yes there were racists incidents in parts of Britain in that period but we generally lacked the large scale racial violence or the legal restrictions on migrants, as mentioned earlier.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 29, 2022 12:37:58 GMT
Can we bring back the thread to Japanese made a bigger direct contribution to the Entente in WWI? as the thread title says.
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Post by American hist on Nov 4, 2022 2:25:19 GMT
I sure hope so! Japan had wanted China to be reduced to a mere protectorate had Japan fully got what they wanted. So they can expect China to be completely sold out with great contributions from Japan .
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 4, 2022 15:05:51 GMT
I sure hope so! Japan had wanted China to be reduced to a mere protectorate had Japan fully got what they wanted. So they can expect China to be completely sold out with great contributions from Japan .
Probably not as Britain especially had too many business and other interests there. So do France and the US among the powers left standing at the end of the war.
What you might get if Russia still gets defeated and falls under Bolshevik rule is that Japan is encouraged to establish a presence in eastern Siberia and hold it longer, probably with a puppet White Russian state of some time.
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