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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 14, 2022 1:10:27 GMT
The Japanese wouldn’t want to and didn’t need to and even if they wanted to and needed to, they could not. They were Asian - the yellow man. They were seen as neither Christian nor civilised in addition to the racial difference.
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Post by justiniano on Jul 14, 2022 18:40:06 GMT
ven if they wanted to and needed to, they could not. They were Asian - the yellow man. Hence why in my post I said one of them would marry an Ainu |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 14, 2022 18:48:08 GMT
How did the Japanese aristocracy of the 19th century view the Ainu? Not very highly.
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Post by justiniano on Jul 18, 2022 6:35:10 GMT
How did the Japanese aristocracy of the 19th century view the Ainu? Not very highly. I'm sure at least 1 aristocrat appreciated the loyalty of the Ainu. At least one foreigner made remarks about their loyalty |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 18, 2022 11:06:10 GMT
Now you are making the mistake of quibbling about individual opinions of Japanese aristocrats, when that is categorically not what is being talked about. What is and is important is the collective contemptuous disdain of the Japanese towards them.
Now, if you were talking about a European Royal marrying an Ainu, how many married an Eskimo, Aborigine, Red Indian, Arab, Chinese, Malay, Black African or other group? Absolutely none.
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Post by justiniano on Jul 18, 2022 14:26:57 GMT
Now, if you were talking about a European Royal marrying an Ainu, how many married an Eskimo, Aborigine, Red Indian, Arab, Chinese, Malay, Black African or other group? Absolutely none. Isn't the British royal family related to some people in India? |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 18, 2022 15:31:05 GMT
The only possible link you could be referring to Eliza Kewark, who had a daughter (Katherine) on the wrong side of the sheets with Prince William's great-great-great-great-great grandfather Theodore Forbes. This comes down the Spencer line, not the Windsor/Saxe-Coburg Gotha line at all.
I would further suggest there is a very big difference between a merchant having an affair with his Indian housekeeper in the first decade of the 19th century - a time when the interbreeding between HEIC men and Indians was not yet subject to the same opprobrium that it would later attract - and an actual royal family marrying off a member to a Japanese person.
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Post by justiniano on Jul 18, 2022 16:16:08 GMT
a time when the interbreeding between HEIC men and Indians was not yet subject to the same opprobrium that it would later attract - and an actual royal family marrying off a member to a Japanese person. Even if the Japanese person is a european looking half ainu? |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 18, 2022 16:24:04 GMT
Yes. It isn't about how they look alone, else we would find quite a bit more 'passing' going around, to use the old US parlance.
What is more significant is the bloodline. Royal marriages were at that stage still acts of state and diplomacy. There was no advantage to be gained by plighting their troth to what used to be called the 'hairy Ainu'. The racialist views towards peoples regarded as primitive back then were pretty full on in general in European/'Western' society.
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Post by justiniano on Jul 18, 2022 16:31:54 GMT
It isn't about how they look alone, else we would find quite a bit more 'passing' going around, to use the old US parlance. Are you talking about the pencil in the hair or paperbag tests? |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 18, 2022 17:02:44 GMT
No, just the basic concept of passing as outlined in Nella Larsen's 1929 novel.
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Post by American hist on Aug 8, 2022 14:51:46 GMT
I'm interested to know what would have happened had the Japanese emperors been involved in all those European monarchs marrying each other (like how Kaiser Wilhelm & Czar nicholas II etc. were cousins) and/or been involved in the scramble for Africa. I think possible PoD for them to be seen as European enough to do at least 1 of those things would be if one of the Japanese emperors (or possibly empress but idk of any) married and had an heir with an Ainu. Or conquering a part of Siberia (before the Russians ofc) and having an heir with a more west Eurasian-looking ethnic group that's there. Not going to happen, European royals would not marry into the Japanese Imperial family and the Japanese Imperial family being considered at that time time Descent from the gods are not going to marry into European royals. To add on this Europeans still held racist views toward Asian people even after the Russo Japanese war, when the smaller Japanese military proved mightier than the bear-sized Russian giant. However, if there were friendly relationships between Japan and the west, such as dynasty marriage, I believe racial supremacy for both sides would have been reduced, especially against Asian people. I could imagine in mainstream American Society that Asian people would be well accepted earlier in our society and seen as equals. During ww1, Japan would have been invited to versailles peace talks along with egual racial European and Asian memberships |
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Post by American hist on Nov 4, 2022 2:31:06 GMT
How could this help come about? I think it might take even more than just a defeating big Russia it might mean more to take down other European powers. Russia Farhat strains I have any weaknesses as we seen during the bolshevik revolution. Karl Marx had thought communism would be establishing a more modern European country like France or Britain she did not think it would happen in a relative back water such as Russia and China
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michelvan
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 488
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Post by michelvan on Nov 4, 2022 9:08:27 GMT
We have to ask this questions:
Why would Empire of Japan join the scramble for Afrika ?
How could be player under Europeans powers ?
What would it gain and why ?
For Japanese Empire Afrika is far far away land that is closer to Europa than Japan !
Even with Christian* Japan that is expansionist, it would focus on nearby resources in Asia, not Afrika !
This would let sooner and later into trouble even war with European powers who colonised this Areas were Japanese try to Occupy
in 17th and 18th century the major European Powers in Asia (England, France, Dutch, Spain, Portuguese) would have war with Japan over territory
Leading to treaty were the Europeans powers recognised the Christian* Empire of Japan as equal power.
however Politic is strange and weird universe, we're common sense is abandon, for power play.
Best example is Scramble of Afrika were European power fight over central Africa.
in end a compromise was made called "if i not get central afrika, you either"
so ended Central Africa as PRIVATE property "freestate Congo" in Hands of Leopold III of Belgium...
it would not so unrealistic that something similar happen and Empire of Japan suddenly has territory thanks to German and France dispute over Africa.
and has no idea what to do with it...
*= a Christian Empire of Japan,
Japan almost became a Christian nation during civil war phase, as Portuguese missionary introduce it to Japanese people.
The ruling powers manage barely to end this movement in series of battles
But had the Christian fraction won, they would unify Japan consolidate it and went to expansion missionary efforts.
Similar to Spain conquistadors but with samurai
This kind Christianity would be a Japanese version, see what Japan did with Chinese buddhism => Zen
It would recognisable for Europeans as Christian belief, uplifting Japanese status from unbeliever to Christian !
but still we have european power Politic that ignore religion, once the action benefits you own nation...
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