575
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There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Apr 30, 2022 18:18:23 GMT
3) Denmark (Had You been around CFnet You could have read "The silent guns" where I mentioned a few)
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Apr 30, 2022 18:48:54 GMT
Have You read about the Murmansk offensive by Dietl's Corps? It was so totally a no go much to do with terrain and logistics. Operation Fir - as somebody on SV was it mentioned what about finances. Did some search some years ago about the Gold Hoards of various countries Germans conquered or occupied - Switzerland was a necessary outpost in Europe for Germany to help finances to launder captured gold etc. It was a real backdraw that the Scandinavians, Netherlands/Belgium and France got all or so much out even in the nick of time. Canaris - actually no shining beacon of intelligence if I just look at the occupation of my own country. They had had officers holidaying for months and still got stuff wrong. Enigma change of codes/adding new wheels at breakout of war may unseat some of the gains of the Poles made prewar and disseminated to the French and British and the Swedes from breaking it too. At least to make for a much longer time before being "reading" it. Sorry about Coventry. Winter issue was ready for the Heer troops in Russian 1941 only the OKH didn't hand it out - not necessary. The SS was far more down to basics and doing just that. Keep Benny from DOW Britain and France - impossible; I know, I know and then "My dear Duche I'll always remember this" (about Austria). The Italians was searching for oil in Libya in the right place prior to the war - 'nother six!
One thing after another...
1. Of course Murmansk is a difficult territory, even Dietl admitted it - and told the "Führer" to his face. So the operation was changed - instead of "marching the puny 100 km from Petsamo to Murmansk", Dietl's forces were split. Giving him the option to attack elsewhere. But with way too few troops. Not really an improvement, yes. Maybe ITTL Adolf Nazi has a better mood and actually allows him to implement something that might work? Cutting off the railroad would prevent L&L deliveries reaching Leningrad/further south. Yes, professionals study logistics.
2. Yes, I never thought Fir Tree would be easy, or pay off. Maybe later, when the big war is won. (How exactly, I still have to find out.)
3. Canaris at least was smart enough to manipulate Franco to keep him out of the war. The situation in 1940 wasn't that great fo Britain. (And what is your country?)
4. Yes, there was much stupidity among army bureaucrats, I've read stories about them.
5. Libyan oil... interesting, but would probably take too long until they get millions of barrels from there, esp. under war conditions. Afterwards, sure.
1. As I remember from my reading the Walk to Murmansk started out with vehicles for logistics then turned to packanimals as the road vanished then to troops as the packanimals gave. Regarding cutting the Murmansk RR they did try but their losses in the Finnish forest were so horrendous as not attempted again. The Finn officers just shook their heads at the German attempt at negotiating the forest.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Apr 30, 2022 19:05:25 GMT
Good analysis, miletus12 . I only have a few comments. Yes, they were pretty lucky in France, which is why I'll have the PoD after Sickle Cut. If I understand your logic chain, then the Germans are already doomed. The French killed too many good Luftwaffe tacticians and operational unit leaders. All that is left is Kahnhuber and he is not enough to offset the Goering Gang, that idiot politician who thinks he is an airplane designer and builder, Willy Messerschmidt, and that one idea man Adolf Galland. How about the Befehlshaber der Unterseeboote? Those incompetents make the Goering Gang appear to be geniuses. Consider that managing a submarine and air campaign efficiently as complementary effectors could prolong the war and give the Germans a chance at a peace of exhaustion. To paint broad strokes about it, the German LW had no strategic bombardment or anti-ship capacity at all. And the KM did not know how to conduct a proper submarine campaign either. The two failures complemented each other in that the British could not be besieged at sea or from the air. Going the other way, when the LW lost the air campaign in mid 1943 and the Americans (Never the British) finally figured out transportation and oil, the air campaign complemented the Russian ground campaign so as to doom Hitlerite Germany. The war at sea turned out to stalemate until British tacticians and American technologists solved the U-boat and made it a one way suicide trip to the North Atlantic. The Germans only had until mid 1943 until game theory *(British), technological fixes (American) like 10 cm radar, acoustic anti-submarine torpedoes and ASW HK groups made finding U-boats as fun and easy as killing German tanks and locomotives. The Germans never applied game theory on offense in either the air campaign or war at sea. They did not understand radar. They did not understand economic flow logistics. They did not understand MAHAN. *(Mahan's theories of economic use of the sea can be applied to land communications as well. Transportation is transportation. Cut it, and whether land or sea, the initiative and wealth passes to the side which can move from the side which cannot.) See previous remarks? If one cannot solve the truck problem and one is not prepared for the terrain problem, then one loses mobility. To take a Russian example, The Winter War, the Finns were able to mukluk their small hunting parties across country in the snow buried woods and hunt Russians. They murdered tens of thousands of them with sniper ambushes and basic infantry patrolling on foot. In a similar vein, the Russians' equipment froze up in those conditions and would not work and they could not move at all. As attackers, they HAD to move or get mowed down in place by eager happy Finns who popped up seemingly anywhere in a 1940s game of whack a Russian. As an added bonus, the Finns could move in DAYLIGHT since they had effective air cover. The Russians could not. Their VVK was blasted out of the sky, they had no air recon and to add to their woes, guess who could also move at night and who could not? This sounds exactly like France 1945. Especially the Ardennes 2.0 when the Americans got organized and the Herr experienced the joys of Quesada, Montgomery and Patton after Bradley was fired, the snow came and the 9th Air Force went to work on frozen Germans and their stuck supply columns. The way Manila fell. But that means infantry who know how to do it and generals who understand artillery and time solves all MOUTs. And to clear up a point, the Austrian draft dodger and coward wanted the Baiku oil fields. He might have been a lucky idiot as well as a superficial didact, but he had Horace Greeley Hjalmar Schact, an economist, who taught him about oil and what makes the world go round. (&Yes: the "gentleman's" name was "Horace Greeley" Hjalmar Schact.). It was the oil, and not the grain. He could get the grain from France. The first murder camps stated in 1933 and immediately showed skewed and negative economic and logistics supply chain effects upon the German economy. One needs "nuance" to get past the myths of how WWII unfolded. Simple things like keeping your horses and troops sheltered in portable barns, supplying smokeless wood stoves and charcoal to your machine gun crews and knowing how to make and use snowshoes can be important.
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Post by Max Sinister on Apr 30, 2022 21:16:17 GMT
About the Butterfly Effect:
This scientific concept was popularized (as a part of Chaos Theory) during the 1980s. In its popular form it's usually quoted as "A butterfly flapping its wings in Brazil may cause a tornado in Texas". The concept was discovered by the scientist Edward N. Lorenz in 1963, during a computer simulation of weather. It was when he entered the almost-precise data from an earlier point in time than that which the calculations had already reached. After continuing to run the simulation for the same amount of time, the results turned out completely different: Proving that small changes don't have to stay small, but may grow exponentially.
(Ray Bradbury's story "A Sound of Thunder" predicted something like this as early as 1952, BTW.)
In Alternate History, many authors like to use well-known historical characters in similar functions as in our world's history. Take Goebbels as an inquisitor in the service of the Vatican, or Richard Nixon as a used-car salesman - of steamcars to boot. This makes their stories easier to digest, and their characters easier to relate to. "How many Sixes does Adolf Nazi have to Roll?" is not supposed to be an easy story.
Also, it fits that - if we use the butterfly effect - that the world we know is destroyed bit by bit as the years go by. (As if the Nazis hadn't done enough damage in the first place.) Hence, the only people who are the same as in our world are those conceived and born before the Point of Divergence. That is: 1940s, roughly. If I decide to let people from our history appear who are born after this date, they'll be really more like siblings from the same parents (possible after all, esp. if these parents were already married/betrothed/an item before the PoD), with the same sex (the chance is about 50%), the same first name (possible, families like to reuse names, esp. traditional ones, and people's tastes tend to stay similar), and roughly the same birth date.
Furthermore, there's still the possibility of "morphic twins", as Terry Pratchett would have said: Different people who have the same function as certain people from our history. If there is no Steve Jobs, someone else will probably still invent the PC.
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Post by Max Sinister on Apr 30, 2022 21:20:05 GMT
Important questions that might have to be dealt with in this timeline after the war: How would a victorious Nazi Reich react to...- The first nuke, and further developments, including nuclear power plants. Especially if the Communists get them!
- Space flight/ICBMs (consider that Nazi Germany was most advanced in rocketry, at this time)
- Wide-spread television
- Growing pollution, the hole in the Ozone layer, acid rain, the Climate Catastrophe
- IT innovations (computers, databases, networks, e-mail, the PC, office software...) Consider that Konrad Zuse created a working computer during the war which was more advanced than what the Allies had at that time!
- An invasion of Japan, let alone defeat and destruction
- A Sino-Soviet split
- Independent India trying to go its own way
- Independence movements throughout Africa, Asia
- The Civil Rights movement, other black and non-white movements
- Communist takeover of China, other important states
- Islamist movements, e.g. the Ayatollahs' in Iran (Khomeini was born before the PoD!)
- A tripartite (Nazis and fascists/Communists/Capitalist Christian Democrats) Cold War, if not with even more participants
- A breakdown of the Soviet Union (The Soviet Empire might last shorter if they don't have Eastern Europe to exploit)
- The Reich's bureaucracy growing sclerotic
- New kinds of guerillas (Che Guevara was born before the PoD!)
- Open power struggles among factions of their own
- An ally (Franco's Spain, Vichy France, or even Italy) trying to part ways with the Reich/fascism
- The holocaust becoming known by the public
- Germans demanding freedom/democracy (well, it's possible)
- Rock music, new drugs, the sexual revolution, in short: The counter-culture
- The invention of the birth control pill
- New Hollywood, video games, science-fiction/fantasy/horror
- Vatican II (maybe even a split?)
- A relevant neopagan movement, or widespread atheism
- Improved agriculture (which puts the Lebensraum idea into question)
- Food surplus, and growing obesity of "Aryans"
- An oil crisis
- An end of the gold standard (if there is a Bretton Woods equivalent)
- New kinds of organized crime
- Rise of the megacorps
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Post by Max Sinister on Apr 30, 2022 21:25:38 GMT
Another overview, about important people in this timeline. Longer lives Leading Nazis- Adolf Nazi
- Joseph Goebbels
- Heinrich Himmler
- Reinhard Heydrich
- Robert Ley
- Wilhelm Frick
- Alfred Rosenberg
- Hans Frank
- Fritz Todt?
[/font] [li]Eva Braun[/li] [li]The Goebbels kids[/li] [li]Many German Soldiers (up to 5 Millions)[/li] [li]Many German civilians (esp. from the East and the big cities)[/li] [li]Relatives of Adolf Nazi from the Waldviertel[/li] [li]Klaus Junge (young chess talent)[/li] [li]Erwin Rommel?[/li] [li]Hanna Reitsch?[/li] [li]Heinrich George[/li] Foreign Statesmen[li]Benito Mussolini[/li] [li]Gian Galeazzo Ciano[/li] [li]Italo Balbo?[/li] [li]Pierre Laval[/li] [li]Vidkun Quisling[/li] [li]Adrian Mussert[/li] [li]Ferenc Szalasi[/li] [li]Ion Antonescu[/li] [li]Jozef Tiso[/li] [li]Joseph P. Kennedy jr.[/li] [li]Robert F. Kennedy?[/li] Others[li]Antoine de Saint-Exupery[/li] [li]Buddy Holly[/li] [li]Ritchie Valens[/li] [li]The Big Bopper[/li] [li]James Dean[/li] [li]The Heydrich killers[/li] Shorter livesForeign Statesmen[li]Franklin D. Roosevelt?[/li] [li]Winston Churchill?[/li] [li]Charles de Gaulle?[/li] Partisans[li]Tito[/li] [li]Karol Woytila?[/li] Other Nazi opponents[li]Konrad Adenauer[/li] [li]Kurt Schumacher[/li] [li]Oskar Schindler[/li] Never born IOTL[li]TBD[/li] Never born ITTL[li]The author's parents. Both of them. Draw the conclusion.[/li] [li]Gerhard Schröder, Angela Merkel, Olaf Scholz[/li] [li]All POTUSes since Clinton, Hillary too. Even Biden.[/li] [li]All British PMs since Tony Blair[/li] [li]Emmanuel Macron, Nicolas Sarkozy[/li] [li]Juan Carlos of Spain, Aznar, Zapatero[/li] [li]Mario Draghi, Matteo Renzi[/li] [li]Al Gore, Newt Gingrich, Rudy Giuliani, Kamala Harris, Mike Pence, AOC[/li] [li]Binyamin Netanyahu[/li] [li]Greta Thunberg, Malala, Emma Gonzales[/li] [li]Prince Charles, Lady Di, Carmilla etc.[/li] [li]Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping, Jair Bolsonaro, Narendra Modi[/li] [li]No Popes so far![/li] [li]Steve Bannon, Mencius Moldbug, Andrew Breitbart, David Duke[/li] [li]Michael Kühnen, Lutz Bachmann, Attila Hildmann, Ken Jebsen, Akif Pirincci, Alice Weidel, Bernd Lucke, Bernd Höcke, Jörg Meuthen, Storchi, Anders Behrend Breivik[/li] [li]Joschka Fischer, Winfried Kretschmann, Jürgen Trittin, Cem Özdemir, Jutta Ditfurth[/li] [li]Jürgen Möllemann, Guido Westerwelle, Christian Lindner, Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger[/li] [li]Sigmar Gabriel, Martin Schulz, Andrea Nahles, Peer Steinbrück, Rudolf Scharping[/li] [li]Markus Söder, Uschi Leyen, AKK, Luschet, Roland Koch, Günter Oettinger[/li] [li]Horst Köhler, Christian Wulff, Ole von Beust, Klausi Wowi[/li] [li]MbS, Osama bin Laden, ISIS people[/li] Alternate careers[li]TBD[/li] [/ul]
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Post by Max Sinister on May 1, 2022 0:49:17 GMT
miletus12, your first post here was good, but the next two ones could use improvement. Sources and all that. Also, try to calm down your emotions. This is a difficult topic, but let's approach it like professionals. Just one thing: Dachau was a concentration camp and indeed started in 1933, and ~35,000 people died there (enough said), but it wasn't an extermination "camp" like Auschwitz, Sobibor, Treblinka etc. where hundreds of thousands were killed in gas chambers, and for which indeed many transports were necessary. One day I'll have to post the list of my sources here. It's still not finished, but it contains some dozen books, both fiction and non-fiction. Not to mention the WP articles, and the books I don't remember anymore.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on May 1, 2022 1:13:44 GMT
miletus12, your first post here was good, but the next two ones could use improvement. Sources and all that. Also, try to calm down your emotions. This is a difficult topic, but let's approach it like professionals. If you know your history, you know some of my sources. Andrew Boyd. Norman Friedman. Alfred Mahan. Julian Corbett. Adam Tooze. Sean McMeekan. Steven Zaloga. Vesa Nunye. Parshall and Tully, Janes, Brasseys and Combat Fleets of the World, USNI and many many others. If I call a man a draft dodger and a coward, that is factual. Same goes for a politician who was provably a very lousy aircraft manufacturer and a war criminal. Those are "{Professional} fact-based assessments. In the case of Messerschmidt the BF109 and the Me210/310/410, the Me262, and the Me163 are kind of indicative of his incompetence as well as all the slave laborers his company murdered. My source for Adolf as an Austrian draft dodger and coward was Walther von Brauchitsch. For the Luftwaffe in general and Willy Messerschmidt I use Richard Overy and the USSBS.
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Post by Max Sinister on May 1, 2022 1:15:25 GMT
Other than that, I just want to tell you that I haven't figured out everything yet, but I'm thinking about it. One single PoD very probably won't do it - none of all those I and others can think of, save ASBs - but if I take five? Or ten?
And I don't deny that Nazi politicians and generals often screwed up. That's not the question. The question is who screws up least in the war.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 1, 2022 16:51:36 GMT
Important questions that might have to be dealt with in this timeline after the war: How would a victorious Nazi Reich react to...- The first nuke, and further developments, including nuclear power plants. Especially if the Communists get them!
- Space flight/ICBMs (consider that Nazi Germany was most advanced in rocketry, at this time)
- Wide-spread television
- Growing pollution, the hole in the Ozone layer, acid rain, the Climate Catastrophe
- IT innovations (computers, databases, networks, e-mail, the PC, office software...) Consider that Konrad Zuse created a working computer during the war which was more advanced than what the Allies had at that time!
- An invasion of Japan, let alone defeat and destruction
- A Sino-Soviet split
- Independent India trying to go its own way
- Independence movements throughout Africa, Asia
- The Civil Rights movement, other black and non-white movements
- Communist takeover of China, other important states
- Islamist movements, e.g. the Ayatollahs' in Iran (Khomeini was born before the PoD!)
- A tripartite (Nazis and fascists/Communists/Capitalist Christian Democrats) Cold War, if not with even more participants
- A breakdown of the Soviet Union (The Soviet Empire might last shorter if they don't have Eastern Europe to exploit)
- The Reich's bureaucracy growing sclerotic
- New kinds of guerillas (Che Guevara was born before the PoD!)
- Open power struggles among factions of their own
- An ally (Franco's Spain, Vichy France, or even Italy) trying to part ways with the Reich/fascism
- The holocaust becoming known by the public
- Germans demanding freedom/democracy (well, it's possible)
- Rock music, new drugs, the sexual revolution, in short: The counter-culture
- The invention of the birth control pill
- New Hollywood, video games, science-fiction/fantasy/horror
- Vatican II (maybe even a split?)
- A relevant neopagan movement, or widespread atheism
- Improved agriculture (which puts the Lebensraum idea into question)
- Food surplus, and growing obesity of "Aryans"
- An oil crisis
- An end of the gold standard (if there is a Bretton Woods equivalent)
- New kinds of organized crime
- Rise of the megacorps
I would suspect - and hope - that they wouldn't be around for many of those events as I can't see them lasting that long. A lot would depend on the initial butterflies and what develops from them. However I would say a) 1st nukes - initially denial that non-Ayrans/mongols could be ahead of them then panic. Doubly so if the 1st nukes were Soviet but I think that unlikely. More likely the US or possibly British if the US sinks back too much into isolationism. b) Space flight/ICBMs (consider that Nazi Germany was most advanced in rocketry, at this time) - Depending on events there could be a space race here, probably with Germany - while its economy lasts - as its got the tech and the desire for big projects - and the US with UK and Soviets seeking to keep up.
c) Wide-spread television - Well they relied heavily on propaganda to convince their 'citizens' so they would probably be in favour, as long as they could keep control of course so expect moves to block any BBC or other foreign broadcasts that told other stories.
d) Growing pollution, the hole in the Ozone layer, acid rain, the Climate Catastrophe - almost certainly prolonged denial. The political leadership have the same mentality as Moscow in many ways and a lot of connections with big business as well.
e) IT innovations (computers, databases, networks, e-mail, the PC, office software...) Consider that Konrad Zuse created a working computer during the war which was more advanced than what the Allies had at that time! - Would depend again on how much they could control such new technology plus whether Zuse or others could keep some sort of patron in the regime to support him in fighting the bureaucracy.
f) An invasion of Japan, let alone defeat and destruction - I would say that's almost certain as having failed in Europe the US would want success somewhere along with the still strong hostility over Pearl Harbour and the British desire to regain Malaya especially and protect the Dominions and its other interests in the region.
g) A Sino-Soviet split - that assumes that Mao wins in China which may not be the case. The US will be committing more resources to the Pacific/Far East while any Soviet intervention is less likely because of tension with the west and also they will be looking over their shoulders at the Nazis and - correctly I believe - be expecting a new attack.
h) Independent India trying to go its own way - Hitler and many of his followers will be shocked at Britain giving up the colony, possibly unsurprising at the chaos that probably follows. They might try and gain influence there but it would depend on the details and given how heavy handed Nazi 'diplomacy' was which is likely to be boosted by their 'victory' its unlikely to have much success, at least unless a moron like Bose gains power in India.
i) Independence movements throughout Africa, Asia - The same although some of those may be delayed. Not sure, with a surviving Vichy which might have more of France under its official control after the peace treaty, what the French reaction would be to unrest in FIC and FNA and also possible German support for their puppet.
j) The Civil Rights movement, other black and non-white movements - Incredulity. Possibly followed by open mockery of Britain and the US. Not sure what's going to happen to European colonies who's home territories stay under German domination. They might be willing to send forces to 'help' their puppets maintain control but could face opposition from Britain and the US who won't want Germany establishing bases and influence in places such as the DEI or Belgium Congo among others.
k) Communist takeover of China, other important states - As stated above I don't know if that will happen. China could come under KMT control at least for some years/decades and with the Soviets weakened the idea is likely to be markedly less successful.
l) Islamist movements, e.g. the Ayatollahs' in Iran (Khomeini was born before the PoD!) - Possibly butterflied totally. A lot would depend on what happens in the ME, which could go in any number of ways.
m) A tripartite (Nazis and fascists/Communists/Capitalist Christian Democrats) Cold War, if not with even more participants - Not sure where there would be a Christian Democrat element as I think their pretty much a continental European identity and their under Nazi control but there will be a cold war which could end up going hot very easily. Depending on the circumstances the western bloc could be split between UK and US and you could see a Non-Aligned bloc at least trying to emerge which could include China as well as India, Indonesia etc.
n) A breakdown of the Soviet Union (The Soviet Empire might last shorter if they don't have Eastern Europe to exploit) - Its likely to have a shorter life for that reason but still likely to have a longer one than the Nazi empire given that latter's character.
o) The Reich's bureaucracy growing sclerotic & Open power struggles among factions of their own - Bloodily although its likely to be hidden as much as possible from the general population and the wider world.
p) An ally (Franco's Spain, Vichy France, or even Italy) trying to part ways with the Reich/fascism - see point o).
q) The holocaust becoming known by the public - Depending on whether it stops with the Jews and Romany or goes on for Slavs and other groups. If the former than probably be accepted as the Nazis being Nazis. If its extended to increasing numbers of Slavs especially and hence is ongoing it could be another matter but if anyone's willing to go to war with the Nazis would depend on the circumstances.
r) Germans demanding freedom/democracy (well, it's possible) - See point o) above. If there's not a collapse from foreign intervention or massive revolts by the subjects the regime will fall eventually but its likely to be very bloody and you could see another fairly autocratic regime replacing it.
Anyway initial thoughts.
Steve
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on May 1, 2022 20:29:40 GMT
Important questions that might have to be dealt with in this timeline after the war: How would a victorious Nazi Reich react to...- The first nuke, and further developments, including nuclear power plants. Especially if the Communists get them!
- Space flight/ICBMs (consider that Nazi Germany was most advanced in rocketry, at this time)
- Wide-spread television
- Growing pollution, the hole in the Ozone layer, acid rain, the Climate Catastrophe
- IT innovations (computers, databases, networks, e-mail, the PC, office software...) Consider that Konrad Zuse created a working computer during the war which was more advanced than what the Allies had at that time!
- An invasion of Japan, let alone defeat and destruction
- A Sino-Soviet split
- Independent India trying to go its own way
- Independence movements throughout Africa, Asia
- The Civil Rights movement, other black and non-white movements
- Communist takeover of China, other important states
- Islamist movements, e.g. the Ayatollahs' in Iran (Khomeini was born before the PoD!)
- A tripartite (Nazis and fascists/Communists/Capitalist Christian Democrats) Cold War, if not with even more participants
- A breakdown of the Soviet Union (The Soviet Empire might last shorter if they don't have Eastern Europe to exploit)
- The Reich's bureaucracy growing sclerotic
- New kinds of guerillas (Che Guevara was born before the PoD!)
- Open power struggles among factions of their own
- An ally (Franco's Spain, Vichy France, or even Italy) trying to part ways with the Reich/fascism
- The holocaust becoming known by the public
- Germans demanding freedom/democracy (well, it's possible)
- Rock music, new drugs, the sexual revolution, in short: The counter-culture
- The invention of the birth control pill
- New Hollywood, video games, science-fiction/fantasy/horror
- Vatican II (maybe even a split?)
- A relevant neopagan movement, or widespread atheism
- Improved agriculture (which puts the Lebensraum idea into question)
- Food surplus, and growing obesity of "Aryans"
- An oil crisis
- An end of the gold standard (if there is a Bretton Woods equivalent)
- New kinds of organized crime
- Rise of the megacorps
Taking that in order. 1a. Considering that the Russians stole 90% of the basic research and still got it mostly wrong and had to backtrack and repeat Oliphant's Bohr's and Teller's work, the Soviets getting the bomb "first" is still a myth. 2a. The Nazi regime knew nothing about rockets that the Americans did not already know. JPL was about 18 months behind in the manufacturing in 1944. Postwar after a rocker bombarded England ATL? Expect Atlas in 1950. Nazi schemes for a V-3 or V-4 depended on solving the stack problem and some cockamamie wings for glide extended flight. If they could not solve missile staging for something simple like Rheintochter, then the Americans will at White Sands with a kludged version of a Sergeant and WAC Corporal. 3a. Americans are ahead by a decade. 4a. The Nazis would not care. Social Darwinism will take care of it. 5a. Not true. Konrad's machine series was a pale and UNRELIABLE forerunner (1938-1943)to the Atanasoff-Berry Computer and ENIAC. (1940-1947.) 1b. This would be interesting. An America victorious and unaided in such a Pacific War would have spent about a million lives and exerted about twice the effort to reach the Kanto plains. It would not be in any mood for Nazi shenanigans as I track the alternate outcomes. Since the Nazi scientific talent pool is riddled with blind spots and gaps in knowledge and the brain drain as Europe's best and brightest are murdered or they flee to the New World, we would see another strange mirror version of the Cold War. 2b. India without Russia as a backer and with Nazi Arabs and Persians on its western frontier will either split apart as historically or it will intact join the Australia New Zealand America Canada India Compact. ANZACI? 3b. That depends on the new "Cold War". If George Keenan wrote "his paper" there will be a lot of dead Germans in strange places and a lot more "Vietnams". 4b. Same as 3. Maybe intensified as Nazism incites blowback globally. 5b. Communist China does not happen. Mao needed Russians in Manchuria. What does he have instead? Americans. He therefore becomes dead. See 1b. 6b. The Nazis cultivated the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. he is the direct origin of the Moslem Brotherhood. It would not be remarkable to see the Iranians align with the Americans to oppose this Arab Nazism. 7b. Binary. No communists. Between the Capitalists / Liberals and the Fascists / Corporatists the Marxists have been crushed. Now you have those two ideologies squaring off. 8b. The Soviet Union is gone. What replaces it, is probably fascist. 1c. See 3c. They will not live that long. 2c. What communist guerrillas? Stalin is dead and so is Mao. You might see more Peronists and other Caudillos, but that is old hat to the world that we see emergent here. Google Smedley Butler if you want a Che Guevera and hang on to your hat. 3c. The Herr versus the SS more likely with the Nazi state suffering an implosion. Think of Rumania after Ceausescu or what could happen to Russia in the next few months. 4c. Definitely Spain and Turkey. Refer to 3b. . 5c. Refer to 3c. The Germans knew in 1935 and the World knew in 1942. That kind of crime cannot be hidden. Ignored yes, but hidden, never. 6c. If it did not happen in 1944, then it never would. The current Ukraine War is another test case of totalitarian control versus external pressure. One has to induce general economic and social collapse to produce social dynamic change. 1d. The Nazis were, at the upper echelon, already drug addicts and Charles Manson type perverts and maniacs. They imposed an amphetamine drug dependency on the Herr for "reasons". They were about as atavistic as mass murdering drug abusing moral-less mentally defective human beings can get. The counter-culture is not arriving for them, It has arrived and they waved it on past as TOO CONSERVATIVE and went down the escalator to the next level of depravity. 2d. Nazis will suppress it. 3d. American propaganda? UFA. And the Germans will still import a lot of "Hollywood westerns". They will lose the propaganda war. 4d. The Roman Catholic Church, depending on how long the Nazis last, will have a new "Age of Martyrs". Mass murdering Nazis will murder factory target the "faithful". That is the nature of totalitarians. They cannot tolerate any competing ideology. 5d. The neopagan movement was planned as a replacement for "Christianity". Depending on the variety of Nazi, Atheism was either a given or would be the default condition. 1e. Nazis? With these clowns? Look at what a mess they made of German agriculture before WWII. They will retrograde into Lamarckism and make Europe a wasteland faster than Stalin did the Ukraine. 2e. See 1e. 3e. Plateau oil for the Nazi state depends on how incompetent their political machinations in the Middle East are. They would have to be fairly stupid about it, almost as stupid as the western politicians recently have been in our real world. Being Nazis, I expect those bumblers to get there faster and be oil starved in time for the ATL Algeria War to kick off a decade early. Refer to 3b. and our friend, Smedley Butler. 4e. Nazis were "organized crime". They do not need to invent it. Refer to 3c. for the results. 5e. On the American side. Nazis (See what they did to Junkers.) are too incompetent.
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Post by Max Sinister on May 8, 2022 0:36:02 GMT
A glossary for this TL and stories set in it: - 150%ers ("hundertfuffzigprozentiger"): Someone who is that much convinced of the Nazi regime. Often even doubled to 300%ers (dreihundertprozentiger).
- A8: German rocket model, later development based on the A4, our history's V2. The A stands for "Aggregat".
- Altreich: Usually, Germany in the borders of 1937, but the term is fleeting.
- Blitzmädel: Young women who worked during the war for the Wehrmacht, mostly for transferring messages
- Bonbon: The Nazi party button with the swastika so many people wear ostensively on their lapel.
- Bonzokratie: "Rule of the bigwigs", derogatory term
- Breitspurbahn: Railroads with a track width of four meters, one of the most favorite project of the "Führer".
- Bummelfritz: "Slow Fritz", mild insult
- Burgwagen: "Castle wagon/car" - similar like a caravan for campers, advertised as "Your private castle!"
- Eigentlichkeit: A philosophical concept conceived by Martin Heidegger. In OTL, it became (in)famous as "authenticity" after being filtered through the texts of Jean-Paul Sartre. In this history, people rather (over)use the original term.
- Flakhelfer: Helpers of the anti-air troops, often still in the Hitler Youth. Drafted during the later years of the World War, when more and more Allied bombs fell on German cities.
- Fresswelle: "Feeding wave" - after the war, Germany finally produced more food than its population needed, and the population didn't hesitate to take it.
- Generation Wehrmacht/Generation Hitler Youth/Greater Germanic Generation: The age cohorts with birth years 1901-23 / 1924-41 / 1942-? respectively
- German Riviera: How the Nazis want the Crimean coast to be known after the area's Germanisation
- GGR: Common abbreviation for "Großgermanisches Reich", the Greater Germanic Reich
- Goldfasan: "Golden pheasant", how the highest Nazis are nicknamed
- Indienhilfe: "Help for India" - after agronomy methods were improved, German harvests exploded, so the surplus was given to India, in connection with teaching Nazi ideology
- Itaka-Hemden: Cotton t-shirts (from Italian Egypt), initially in monochrome but flashy colors (at this time, something new).
- Jagdverschwörung: "Hunting conspiracy", a conspiracy of high-ranked Nazis.
- Kinderlandverschickung: Like the Blitz evacuees in Britain, many German kids (especially from the bigger cities) were sent to the East of the Reich (mostly rural areas) during World War 2, where they were safe from Allied bombings.
- Knif/kakfif: Abbreviation for "Kommt nicht in Frage" (There's no way for that) or "Kommt auf keinen Fall in Frage" (There's absolutely no way for that) respectively.
- Langweiliger Peter: Lit. "Boring Peter", but actually meaning "slow Peter", mild insult
- Mutterkreuz: A special medal for mothers who have born many children. Bronze medal for four, silver for six, gold for eight.
- Nationalfilzismus: Pun, meaning "National graftism", attacking Nazi corruption
- Oceanic Nations (ON): A mixture of United Nations, NATO, and EEC centered on the Anglosphere and Latin America
- Orpo/Kripo/Sipo: The three branches of the police: The Sicherheitspolizei, the feared security police; the Kriminalpolizei, criminal police; and the Ordnungspolizei, having to deal with writing traffic tickets, arresting bums and drunks, and so on.
- Plankalkül: First practical programming language, developed by Konrad Zuse, inventor of the modern computer, the use of the binary system and the floating point operations for it.
- Polenwall: The stretch of land along the new eastern border of the Reich, separating the Poles in the "Generalgouvernement" from their brothers living in the "Corridor".
- Polnische Wirtschaft: "Polish economy", derogatory name for the way economy is done in Poland, whether it's true or not
- Reichsheini: "Reich's Hank", derogatory nickname for SS leader Heinrich Himmler, even used by his SS
- Reichsspritzenmeister: Derogatory nickname (coined by Hermann Göring) for Adolf Nazi's doctor Theo Morell
- Reichs-/Volksdeutsche: People of German stock who lived inside/outside the Reich in the borders of when the World War started respectively
- Siedlungsmark/-stützpunkt: Settlement march/base. Area in Eastern Europe which is to be Germanized by 50% (Marken) or 25% (Stützpunkte) respectively.
- Sonnis: Short for "Sonnenblumenkerne", sunflower seeds. Became a common brand.
- Spiegelei (fried egg): The golden version of the "Bonbon" (see above).
- Sweding: This history's term for what we'd call "Finlandization" - here, a nation threatened to succumb to the Reich's influence
- Welteislehre: A pseudoscience developed by a Hanns Hörbiger who claimed that the whole universe was created by the forces of fire and ice, that Earth's Moon was made of ice too, and will fall on Earth in the future - as has happened many times. Oh, and the Mars will become the last moon of Earth. Recommended by Adolf Nazi.
- Wüstenfüchse: "Desert foxes" - Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS soldiers who fought in northern Africa and the Near East. Named in honor of Erwin Rommel.
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on May 8, 2022 8:08:55 GMT
Blitzmädel: Young women who worked during the war for the Wehrmacht, mostly for transferring messages
Also kinda mocking as the Blitz-emblem was the Arms-emblem of SS and Wehrmacht Radiointel so You couldn't as a soldier be too openmouthed around them.
Orpo/Kripo/Sipo: The three branches of the police: The Sicherheitspolizei, the feared security police; the Kriminalpolizei, criminal police; and the Ordnungspolizei, having to deal with writing traffic tickets, arresting bums and drunks, and so on.
Add Bepo, part of Orpo usually living in Barracks which was the Bereitschafts Polizei/Riot Police little wanted around when you were roaming the street.
Welteislehre: A pseudoscience developed by a Hanns Hörbiger who claimed that the whole universe was created by the forces of fire and ice, that Earth's Moon was made of ice too, and will fall on Earth in the future - as has happened many times. Oh, and the Mars will become the last moon of Earth. Recommended by Adolf Nazi.
Germans were peoples of the Fire Slavs of Ice such as the East Campain would be the clash of Fire and Ice; in which Fire of course would prevail.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 10, 2022 14:21:56 GMT
Wüstenfüchse: "Desert foxes" - Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS soldiers who fought in northern Africa and the Near East. Named in honor of Erwin Rommel. Toughed it was mostly Wehrmacht troops who fought in Africa.
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Post by Max Sinister on May 11, 2022 20:11:21 GMT
Welteislehre: A pseudoscience developed by a Hanns Hörbiger who claimed that the whole universe was created by the forces of fire and ice, that Earth's Moon was made of ice too, and will fall on Earth in the future - as has happened many times. Oh, and the Mars will become the last moon of Earth. Recommended by Adolf Nazi.Germans were peoples of the Fire Slavs of Ice such as the East Campain would be the clash of Fire and Ice; in which Fire of course would prevail.
Never underestimate General Winter, double so in 1941/42.
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