Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Nov 17, 2023 18:25:11 GMT
'Taylor Swift Gains Super Speed'.
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Nov 21, 2023 22:05:29 GMT
‘Recep Erdogan Becomes A Talking Turkey’.
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Nov 23, 2023 18:47:21 GMT
'Thanksgiving Dinners Cook Themselves'.
Happy Thanksgiving, by the way. 🦃
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Nov 29, 2023 0:35:09 GMT
'ASB Dictates That Cookies Always Come With A Glass Of Milk'.
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Nov 30, 2023 18:53:41 GMT
'The Rock Becomes A Big, Walking, Talking Rock'. 🪨
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Dec 2, 2023 0:14:30 GMT
'Nickelodeon Only Hires People Named Nick Or Nikki'.
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Dec 4, 2023 21:13:29 GMT
'George W. Bush Carries An American Flag And Six-Shooter Everywhere He Goes'.
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Dec 6, 2023 21:22:45 GMT
'All Plumbers Develop A Craving For Plums'.
|
|
|
Post by raharris1973 on Dec 7, 2023 12:35:33 GMT
Algeria and Vietnam turn to pre-human wilderness in September 1945
What does this do to the subsequent history of the French Empire, the French economy, and France's European policy?
What does this do to regional dynamics in North Africa and East Asia
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,843
Likes: 13,229
|
Post by stevep on Dec 7, 2023 18:55:19 GMT
Algeria and Vietnam turn to pre-human wilderness in September 1945 What does this do to the subsequent history of the French Empire, the French economy, and France's European policy? What does this do to regional dynamics in North Africa and East Asia
Well its going to be a shock to France and the world in general.
In terms of Algeria France has a claim to the region under international law and its now unoccupied so I could see the French seeking to settle at least the coastal regions. How they compete with neighbouring overwhelmingly Muslim regions would depend on the circumstances but its not impossible that you could end up with a lasting and at least reasonably sized French enclave in N Africa. Something like a larger Israel, although it could prompt similar and long lasting conflicts. This could be helped by the fact I don't see France fighting over FIC, which would free up both physical and diplomatic resources.
For Vietnam the big winners might be China and possibly Cambodia which could now expand down the Mekong to its delta, gaining some very rich areas. Of course whether this affects what happens in the Chinese civil war and in what ways would be uncertain.
|
|
|
Post by Otto Kretschmer on Dec 7, 2023 18:59:46 GMT
All potatoes become sentient beings.
|
|
|
Post by raharris1973 on Dec 8, 2023 1:45:04 GMT
Algeria and Vietnam turn to pre-human wilderness in September 1945 What does this do to the subsequent history of the French Empire, the French economy, and France's European policy? What does this do to regional dynamics in North Africa and East Asia
Well its going to be a shock to France and the world in general.
In terms of Algeria France has a claim to the region under international law and its now unoccupied so I could see the French seeking to settle at least the coastal regions. How they compete with neighbouring overwhelmingly Muslim regions would depend on the circumstances but its not impossible that you could end up with a lasting and at least reasonably sized French enclave in N Africa. Something like a larger Israel, although it could prompt similar and long lasting conflicts. This could be helped by the fact I don't see France fighting over FIC, which would free up both physical and diplomatic resources.
For Vietnam the big winners might be China and possibly Cambodia which could now expand down the Mekong to its delta, gaining some very rich areas. Of course whether this affects what happens in the Chinese civil war and in what ways would be uncertain.
Agreed it will be a big shock. And yes I think the French will seek to hold on to their claim and exploit its resources. People sent there would reside mainly on the coast, but they would probably prospect for mineral, and later oil and gas resources, even in the interior desert areas. You could and would get conflicts from nomads ignoring the border. But actually, at the moment they are all French subjects. I was going to talk about neighboring countries and conflicts upon those lines, but actually, the Algerian war, drove the independence timeline of all French Africa, and possibly Africa overall. The war, 1954-1962, pressed the French to first give in to independence pressures, less violent ones, in Morocco and Tunisia (1956), then independence within French Union status for all of former French West Africa, Equatorial Africa, Madagascar, and Djibouti in 1960. The 1960 move only came after De Gaulle used the threat of civil war and a coup within France to constitutionally grab power for himself, sort of winking at the coup supporters, and then betraying them and their colonial objectives, finishing with the final betrayal of ending the Algerian war and conceding Algerian independence in 1962. If there is no war to divide and civilly disturb French society like Algeria, France could try to keep its colonialism for the long-haul, like the Portuguese, until 1975, or into the 1980s. Probably not in Tunisia and Morocco, but pretty likely in Sub-Saharan Africa. So you don't see France fighting over French Indochina. Is that because you see France abandoning a Vietnam turned into an unpopulated jungle wilderness as worthless? Or because the French could hold on to their claim and occupation of an unpopulated Vietnam, without having to fight any Vietnamese people for control of the land? I think the French instinct would be to try to hold on to the land without people, even if it is a glorified nature reserve. And the French I think would paternalistically try to keep control over the Lao and Khmer people, and manage that fairly easily in the immediate postwar period. And the mountain border people of those countries, like the Hmong, would wander over to the unspoiled Vietnam area for game-hunting, fishing, and gardening. The Khmer ethnic people and their royalty would definitely, under the thumb of France, or not, move to reclaim lost historic lands down the Mekong and resettle them. Han and minority Chinese peasants and opium growers would almost certainly squat on Vietnamese land in Tonkin. The threat of Chinese armies invading would be an ever present possibility. But unless the Chinese want to commit to a campaign of conquest, which could risk US nuclear retaliation, France stands a chance of holding the land, and basically with game wardens, border guards, and park rangers, instead of a major counterinsurgency war. So France gets to miss out on two exhausting 8 year, back-to-back counterinsurgency wars. It might take a long time for it to lose its taste for colonialism under these circumstances.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,843
Likes: 13,229
|
Post by stevep on Dec 8, 2023 12:35:26 GMT
Well its going to be a shock to France and the world in general.
In terms of Algeria France has a claim to the region under international law and its now unoccupied so I could see the French seeking to settle at least the coastal regions. How they compete with neighbouring overwhelmingly Muslim regions would depend on the circumstances but its not impossible that you could end up with a lasting and at least reasonably sized French enclave in N Africa. Something like a larger Israel, although it could prompt similar and long lasting conflicts. This could be helped by the fact I don't see France fighting over FIC, which would free up both physical and diplomatic resources.
For Vietnam the big winners might be China and possibly Cambodia which could now expand down the Mekong to its delta, gaining some very rich areas. Of course whether this affects what happens in the Chinese civil war and in what ways would be uncertain.
Agreed it will be a big shock. And yes I think the French will seek to hold on to their claim and exploit its resources. People sent there would reside mainly on the coast, but they would probably prospect for mineral, and later oil and gas resources, even in the interior desert areas. You could and would get conflicts from nomads ignoring the border. But actually, at the moment they are all French subjects. I was going to talk about neighboring countries and conflicts upon those lines, but actually, the Algerian war, drove the independence timeline of all French Africa, and possibly Africa overall. The war, 1954-1962, pressed the French to first give in to independence pressures, less violent ones, in Morocco and Tunisia (1956), then independence within French Union status for all of former French West Africa, Equatorial Africa, Madagascar, and Djibouti in 1960. The 1960 move only came after De Gaulle used the threat of civil war and a coup within France to constitutionally grab power for himself, sort of winking at the coup supporters, and then betraying them and their colonial objectives, finishing with the final betrayal of ending the Algerian war and conceding Algerian independence in 1962. If there is no war to divide and civilly disturb French society like Algeria, France could try to keep its colonialism for the long-haul, like the Portuguese, until 1975, or into the 1980s. Probably not in Tunisia and Morocco, but pretty likely in Sub-Saharan Africa. So you don't see France fighting over French Indochina. Is that because you see France abandoning a Vietnam turned into an unpopulated jungle wilderness as worthless? Or because the French could hold on to their claim and occupation of an unpopulated Vietnam, without having to fight any Vietnamese people for control of the land? I think the French instinct would be to try to hold on to the land without people, even if it is a glorified nature reserve. And the French I think would paternalistically try to keep control over the Lao and Khmer people, and manage that fairly easily in the immediate postwar period. And the mountain border people of those countries, like the Hmong, would wander over to the unspoiled Vietnam area for game-hunting, fishing, and gardening. The Khmer ethnic people and their royalty would definitely, under the thumb of France, or not, move to reclaim lost historic lands down the Mekong and resettle them. Han and minority Chinese peasants and opium growers would almost certainly squat on Vietnamese land in Tonkin. The threat of Chinese armies invading would be an ever present possibility. But unless the Chinese want to commit to a campaign of conquest, which could risk US nuclear retaliation, France stands a chance of holding the land, and basically with game wardens, border guards, and park rangers, instead of a major counterinsurgency war. So France gets to miss out on two exhausting 8 year, back-to-back counterinsurgency wars. It might take a long time for it to lose its taste for colonialism under these circumstances.
I would suspect that France would give up on Vietnam and FIC as a whole as their lost the bulk of their resources in the region and its a long way from home. However could be they try and hold onto it, especially with a need to regain 'honour' after the humiliation of 1940. Think it would definitely be in their interest to leave the area however. Chinese incursions could well occur while the KMT holds most of the country, which is likely not to face opposition from the US. Definitely all the neighbouring states would have people moving into the empty territory, whether organised or simply people looking for opportunities in the now empty land.
Algeria is almost certainly to stay predominantly French for at least several decades, although your likely to have nomads drifting into the southern regions from neighbouring states. Correct that Tunisia and Morocco are likely to stay under French control longer but they will become at least formally independent at some date. Possibly even not much later than OTL because there could be an implicit deal that the price for that is rejecting any claims on parts of Algeria. One big issue is how France would handle independent migration from neighbouring states into the colony. Would they oppose it or welcome at least some cheap labourers? I do suspect racial and religious bigotry would prompt aggression from other Muslim states sooner or later, especially assuming Israel still manages to come into existence. You could see a distinctly close Franco-Israeli relationship as a result.
One other big impact would be on France's internal culture. Don't the bulk of the Muslims in France originally come from Algeria so they won't develop in TTL. That, coupled with migration of French to Algeria would probably mean a smaller population in European France with political and social as well as economic impacts.
|
|
|
Post by raharris1973 on Dec 9, 2023 1:20:45 GMT
All potatoes become sentient beings. Mr. Potato Head still feels the agony......even if he CANNOT SCREAM!!!
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Dec 27, 2023 2:03:57 GMT
'Taiwan Becomes The World's Biggest Wonton'. 🥟
|
|