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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 23, 2022 10:11:28 GMT
Constantinopole and surrounding area go back to 483 BC, just before the start of the Second Greco Persian War. The ISOT is from just before the siege starts and the garrison (including mercenaries) is there. How much does Constantinopole contribute to the war and what role does it play in the Greek world and the world in general?  By the way, Constantinopole at the time had just 50,000 people and was a shadow of it's former self. It's the tech and troops it has that matter now |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 23, 2022 12:23:38 GMT
Constantinopole and surrounding area go back to 483 BC, just before the start of the Second Greco Persian War. The ISOT is from just before the siege starts and the garrison (including mercenaries) is there. How much does Constantinopole contribute to the war and what role does it play in the Greek world and the world in general? By the way, Constantinopole at the time had just 50,000 people and was a shadow of it's former self. It's the tech and troops it has that matter now
If you mean literally just the immediate region around the city or even the finger of land you display towards the north the longer term impacts could be fairly minimal. Including the Morea region would be more sophisticated.
The invading Persian army is much larger but the Byzantine fleet could stop it crossing the straits, or at least cause serious losses for it. I'm not sure how imperial Persia and the rump Byzantine empire will interact aside from a very likely failed attempt to invade the city. If there was continued warfare its possible Byzantium could be worn down, or even that some mercenaries defect to the Persians for more money. However if some reasonably stable peace is established then the city has a chance, if it gets decent leadership and government, to survive and start to expand.
This of course raises the issue of how well a small Greek Orthodox state interacts with the local tribes in the Balkans and then as it starts to trade further afield with ancient Greece, which will have some cultural similarities but some big differences, most especially in religion. Imaging a Peleponesian War with Byzantium as a 3rd player alongside Sparta and Athens.  Assuming they can maintain it and not lose too much technology leaking to the down-timers their navy can be a big advantage over the down-timers but its small size probably means that a single disaster or some defections - especially since I believe a significant proportion were from western nations - could totally undermine it.
Byzantium does have access to gunpowder but again it wouldn't be impossible to have enough knowledge of that to leak out so that won't necessarily be a game changer except in the shortest term.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 23, 2022 12:33:50 GMT
Should I include Morea?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 23, 2022 12:38:45 GMT
Tried to make a map of how a Constantinople and a Byzantine Empire (in Purple) would look like. ![]()  They have the change to take over much of the Persian Empire and create the 2nd Byzantine Empire. |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 23, 2022 12:39:47 GMT
We now have a part of Greece filled with Greeks who dress oddly, speak an odd barely intelligible dialect and profess a strange religion. The rest of Greece is not going to like them.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 23, 2022 12:43:10 GMT
Ok. I added Morea. We now have Greece without Sparta... Great, isnt it?  We now have a part of Greece filled with Greeks who dress oddly, speak an odd barely intelligible dialect and profess a strange religion. The rest of Greece is not going to like them. I said before and say it again, do not add something ore change a date, it is not nice, i made this map on the basis of you first post, changing it is not a good thing to do. |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 23, 2022 12:45:10 GMT
Ok. I added Morea. We now have Greece without Sparta... Great, isnt it? We now have a part of Greece filled with Greeks who dress oddly, speak an odd barely intelligible dialect and profess a strange religion. The rest of Greece is not going to like them. I said before and say it again, do not add something ore change a date, it is not nice, i made this map on the basis of you first post, changing it is not a good thing to do. I removed it then. Your map is now fine |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 23, 2022 12:48:00 GMT
The Byzantines are much more removed from the rest of Greece than Macedonianians are. They are so far that Athenians and others might not even consider them Greek.
Even Byzantines call themselves Romans, not Hellenes as the rest of the Greek world does.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 23, 2022 12:51:35 GMT
I said before and say it again, do not add something ore change a date, it is not nice, i made this map on the basis of you first post, changing it is not a good thing to do. I removed it then. Your map is now fine Besides, having the Greek states react to a Constantinople and a Byzantine Empire is much better. Looking at the size of the Byzantine Army in 1453, it is 7,000 men, 2,000 of whom are foreigners, not a large army. |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 23, 2022 12:54:39 GMT
I removed it then. Your map is now fine Besides, having the Greek states react to a Constantinople and a Byzantine Empire is much better. Looking at the size of the Byzantine Army in 1453, it is 7,000 men, 2,000 of whom are foreigners, not a large army. Now it's not an empire but just another city state except with better tech. It's main strength is in naval tech. The Greek fire and cannons do make a huge difference |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 23, 2022 12:56:18 GMT
Besides, having the Greek states react to a Constantinople and a Byzantine Empire is much better. Looking at the size of the Byzantine Army in 1453, it is 7,000 men, 2,000 of whom are foreigners, not a large army. Now it's not an empire but just another city state except with better tech. Well at least this ISOT has given Constantinople some breathing room. |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 23, 2022 12:57:35 GMT
Now it's not an empire but just another city state except with better tech. Well at least this ISOT has given Constantinople some breathing room. Were the 20-something ships already in the city before the siege? |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 23, 2022 13:01:11 GMT
Well at least this ISOT has given Constantinople some breathing room. Were the 20-something ships already in the city before the siege? You mean the Fall of Constantinople |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 23, 2022 13:03:11 GMT
Yes. If they are already present, they make up for a decent naval force BTW there is a thread about ISOT of Constantinopole to Japan, a quite popular one |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 23, 2022 15:37:51 GMT
Tried to make a map of how a Constantinople and a Byzantine Empire (in Purple) would look like. ![]() They have the change to take over much of the Persian Empire and create the 2nd Byzantine Empire.
Good map and reminded me that the Persians basically crossed over into Europe at the Dardanelles rather than Bosporus. As such depending on the timing and what assorted people know the Persians might not even know about the arrival of Byzantium until some time after their started marching out of Thrace into Macedonia and Greece.
Steve
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Assuming they can maintain it and not lose too much technology leaking to the down-timers their navy can be a big advantage over the down-timers but its small size probably means that a single disaster or some defections - especially since I believe a significant proportion were from western nations - could totally undermine it.
