Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 23, 2022 17:57:13 GMT
Krushev is succeeded not by Breznev but by someone that will start the Soviet cultural revolution and by the end of the 80's it's basically North Korea on steroids Who's the most likely candidate, though?
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jan 24, 2022 4:18:54 GMT
Krushev is succeeded not by Breznev but by someone that will start the Soviet cultural revolution and by the end of the 80's it's basically North Korea on steroids Who's the most likely candidate, though?
What about Beria? |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 24, 2022 4:23:25 GMT
Who's the most likely candidate, though?
What about Beria? As abhorrent as he was on a personal level, I was under the impression he was more pragmatic and liberal than his peers? Which surprised me when I first heard it, though I haven’t had the chance to verify, so I could be wrong. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 24, 2022 11:54:17 GMT
Your initial scenario is probable and would present a terrible fate on the ordinary citizens of the USSR. We might see a refugee crisis of Soviet citizens. At this point, the UN can't do anything because the USSR is part of the Security Council. What’s the process of expelling a UN Security Council member, then? If they’re sane, the others won’t let the Soviets have any say in determining global policy, especially since they’re apparently fine kickstarting nuclear war, either way.
I don't think you can if its a permanent member as they have a veto. Only option might be if for some reason the Soviets make the same mistake as in the Korean War when they were boycotting the UN for some reason and hence the western powers were able to get a formal UN motion in support of opposing the NK invasion. If they did something similar here its possibly that a quick resolution removing them from the security council could pass but a fair number of the non-aligned nations may be cautious about removing the only non 'western' permanent member of the council, or simply intimidated by the Soviets. Plus do you establish a new permanent member and if so who? Possibly India which might mollify the non-aligned and non-western powers?
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jan 24, 2022 14:23:37 GMT
It sounds like that USSR of this world would be far closer to being called a Hyperpower. If the United States doesn't exist in 1986 and the USSR has that much land nobody could match them in anything. The POD is the the UN is kicked out of the Korean peninsula in 1950, followed by Soviet, Chinese, and North Korean invasions of Japan, the Philippines, and American-administered islands in the Pacific. It is then followed by a Soviet invasion of Alaska and British Columbia culminating in the nuclear detonation of Anchorage. Facing fears of a *implausible* Soviet invasion of the United States, Truman decided to surrender to the Soviet-led bloc even if the U.S. has a bigger navy, a much superior air force, and more nuclear weapons. The Soviets gain Alaska and British Columbia and rename both as the Alaskan SSR and the Canadian Pacific SSR. What follows is a period of instability across the United States as people demand to be more isolationist while another side wants revenge against the Soviet Union. But it also culminates in disastrous wars leading to U.S. military defeats in Cuba in 1962 and Nicaragua in the 1980s. Walter Mondale is elected to the presidency in 1984 to start bowing demands to the Soviet Union. Mondale also enacts the States' Rights Act, meaning if a state wanted to secede from the union, the federal government would not do anything about it. However, the Soviets then stage nuclear weapons in Cuba and the Canadian Pacific SSR to keep the United States from rising up against the Soviet hegemony. Mondale was about to declare war against the Soviet Union. By then, the American people were already tired of fighting and losing against the Soviet Union, choosing to accept the status quo instead. Mondale is assassinated by the pro-peace faction aligned to Al Haig, Secretary of State. Washington State then secedes from the union, followed by Texas, California, and New York. The South reforms the Confederate States of America. On September 4, 1986, Congress met one last-time in the U.S. Capitol and declared the union no longer exists. With that, the Soviet Union reigns supreme. *** A pure dystopic timeline. It kept me up a couple of nights when I first read it and made me realize how freedom should never be taken for granted. gillan1220, you really deserve a "Like" from me for the Evil genius of this post.
But you won't get it from me. This, my friend, is what real nightmares are made of.
All kidding aside; very well done.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 24, 2022 14:40:04 GMT
The POD is the the UN is kicked out of the Korean peninsula in 1950, followed by Soviet, Chinese, and North Korean invasions of Japan, the Philippines, and American-administered islands in the Pacific. It is then followed by a Soviet invasion of Alaska and British Columbia culminating in the nuclear detonation of Anchorage. Facing fears of a *implausible* Soviet invasion of the United States, Truman decided to surrender to the Soviet-led bloc even if the U.S. has a bigger navy, a much superior air force, and more nuclear weapons. The Soviets gain Alaska and British Columbia and rename both as the Alaskan SSR and the Canadian Pacific SSR. What follows is a period of instability across the United States as people demand to be more isolationist while another side wants revenge against the Soviet Union. But it also culminates in disastrous wars leading to U.S. military defeats in Cuba in 1962 and Nicaragua in the 1980s. Walter Mondale is elected to the presidency in 1984 to start bowing demands to the Soviet Union. Mondale also enacts the States' Rights Act, meaning if a state wanted to secede from the union, the federal government would not do anything about it. However, the Soviets then stage nuclear weapons in Cuba and the Canadian Pacific SSR to keep the United States from rising up against the Soviet hegemony. Mondale was about to declare war against the Soviet Union. By then, the American people were already tired of fighting and losing against the Soviet Union, choosing to accept the status quo instead. Mondale is assassinated by the pro-peace faction aligned to Al Haig, Secretary of State. Washington State then secedes from the union, followed by Texas, California, and New York. The South reforms the Confederate States of America. On September 4, 1986, Congress met one last-time in the U.S. Capitol and declared the union no longer exists. With that, the Soviet Union reigns supreme. *** A pure dystopic timeline. It kept me up a couple of nights when I first read it and made me realize how freedom should never be taken for granted. gillan1220, you really deserve a "Like" from me for the Evil genius of this post.
But you won't get it from me. This, my friend, is what real nightmares are made of.
All kidding aside; very well done.
Well, what about a world in which the USSR devolves into a beastly terror-regime run by Red Hitler or the Soviet Pol Pot? Because that’s what I’m looking for here, and if it has a nuclear arsenal approaching the size of OTL Soviet Russia at its prime, then whatever version prevailed in spanishspy’s TL will look like Heaven on Earth compared to what I’m looking for. |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jan 24, 2022 16:48:14 GMT
gillan1220, you really deserve a "Like" from me for the Evil genius of this post.
But you won't get it from me. This, my friend, is what real nightmares are made of.
All kidding aside; very well done. This is spanishspy 's scenario, not mine. I just summarized it. Well, what about a world in which the USSR devolves into a beastly terror-regime run by Red Hitler or the Soviet Pol Pot? Because that’s what I’m looking for here, and if it has a nuclear arsenal approaching the size of OTL Soviet Russia at its prime, then whatever version prevailed in spanishspy’s TL will look like Heaven on Earth compared to what I’m looking for. It does get hopeful towards the 21st century as Gennady Zyuganov advocated for reconciliatory policies with the defeated West. Even giving a Marshall Plan aid to the CSA and Western Europe after the Fourth World War in 2010. Unfortunately, Alexander Lukashenko becomes the next Premier of the USSR in 2014 and continues harsh treatment of the defeated West. Now back to your question, your scenario is also a stuff of nightmares. A terror-regime run by someone worse than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao would have death toll worse than the Chinese Cultural Revolution. The genocide of the highest level. I really hope the perpetuator gets the noose. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 24, 2022 18:58:15 GMT
Well, what about a world in which the USSR devolves into a beastly terror-regime run by Red Hitler or the Soviet Pol Pot? Because that’s what I’m looking for here, and if it has a nuclear arsenal approaching the size of OTL Soviet Russia at its prime, then whatever version prevailed in spanishspy’s TL will look like Heaven on Earth compared to what I’m looking for. It does get hopeful towards the 21st century as Gennady Zyuganov advocated for reconciliatory policies with the defeated West. Even giving a Marshall Plan aid to the CSA and Western Europe after the Fourth World War in 2010. Unfortunately, Alexander Lukashenko becomes the next Premier of the USSR in 2014 and continues harsh treatment of the defeated West. Now back to your question, your scenario is also a stuff of nightmares. A terror-regime run by someone worse than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao would have death toll worse than the Chinese Cultural Revolution. The genocide of the highest level. I really hope the perpetuator gets the noose. Thanks. I assume you're still referring to my "Mad Stalin" example, even if Stalin himself is unlikely to go even that far?
Because at that point, the Soviets may as well be carrying out Generalplan Ost on themselves and their neighbors, not to mention consigning as much of the world as their arsenal allows to thermonuclear oblivion.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jan 24, 2022 19:00:13 GMT
It does get hopeful towards the 21st century as Gennady Zyuganov advocated for reconciliatory policies with the defeated West. Even giving a Marshall Plan aid to the CSA and Western Europe after the Fourth World War in 2010. Unfortunately, Alexander Lukashenko becomes the next Premier of the USSR in 2014 and continues harsh treatment of the defeated West. Now back to your question, your scenario is also a stuff of nightmares. A terror-regime run by someone worse than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao would have death toll worse than the Chinese Cultural Revolution. The genocide of the highest level. I really hope the perpetuator gets the noose. Thanks. I assume you're still referring to my "Mad Stalin" example, even if Stalin himself is unlikely to go even that far?
Because at that point, the Soviets may as well be carrying out Generalplan Ost on themselves and their neighbors, not to mention consigning as much of the world as their arsenal allows to thermonuclear oblivion.
Were the Soviets doing ethnic genocide? Especially to the non-Russian populations? Or maybe we can have a worse Stalin or another Pol-Pot to get rid of the Turkmen populations in Central Asia. Praying to God that person won't use nuclear weapons. I do think that would be a red flag and the world won't just standby anymore. It will culminate into World War III. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 24, 2022 19:05:25 GMT
Thanks. I assume you're still referring to my "Mad Stalin" example, even if Stalin himself is unlikely to go even that far?
Because at that point, the Soviets may as well be carrying out Generalplan Ost on themselves and their neighbors, not to mention consigning as much of the world as their arsenal allows to thermonuclear oblivion.
Were the Soviets doing ethnic genocide? Especially to the non-Russian populations? Or maybe we can have a worse Stalin or another Pol-Pot to get rid of the Turkmen populations in Central Asia. Praying to God that person won't use nuclear weapons. I do think that would be a red flag and the world won't just standby anymore. It will culminate into World War III. In my scenario? Yes, basically in a genocidal effort to completely annihilate "troublesome" ethnic groups and pave way for Greater Russia.
In real life? Well, I assume their OTL mass-deportations were either borderline genocide or technically qualified by UN definition, though they still lacked the intent of wholesale extermination that characterized the Holocaust. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 25, 2022 21:31:24 GMT
Were the Soviets doing ethnic genocide? Especially to the non-Russian populations? Or maybe we can have a worse Stalin or another Pol-Pot to get rid of the Turkmen populations in Central Asia. Praying to God that person won't use nuclear weapons. I do think that would be a red flag and the world won't just standby anymore. It will culminate into World War III. In my scenario? Yes, basically in a genocidal effort to completely annihilate "troublesome" ethnic groups and pave way for Greater Russia.
In real life? Well, I assume their OTL mass-deportations were either borderline genocide or technically qualified by UN definition, though they still lacked the intent of wholesale extermination that characterized the Holocaust. I should also note that my scenario deliberately included parallels to Nazi Germany, albeit of a more "Stalinist" flavor that achieved more or less the same things in a more crudely savage, but less coldly methodical way. For example, beating and culling children in training centers is meant to weed out defective recruits who are "never seen of" again after falling short, rather like the child-euthanasia programs practiced by their German adversaries. Similarly, Stalin perpetrates his own version of Generalplan Ost in the ethnic republics and newly invaded territories in Finland and Poland. Of course, rather than an elaborate network of concentration camps and extermination camps, the Soviets just engineer more Holodomors and shoot the survivors on the spot, before demolishing native landmarks and relocating ethnic Russians to those lands. Scarcely anyone with non-Russian ancestry is spared death by famine, forced labor, or simple execution, save for Stalin's Georgia and a handful of "exceptions" deemed too important to destroy now. The death camps that are built, though, are erected in Siberia to "permanent deal with" Soviet Jewry, which is eerily akin to the "Final Solution" being carried out in the west... |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jan 26, 2022 4:13:39 GMT
In my scenario? Yes, basically in a genocidal effort to completely annihilate "troublesome" ethnic groups and pave way for Greater Russia.
In real life? Well, I assume their OTL mass-deportations were either borderline genocide or technically qualified by UN definition, though they still lacked the intent of wholesale extermination that characterized the Holocaust. I should also note that my scenario deliberately included parallels to Nazi Germany, albeit of a more "Stalinist" flavor that achieved more or less the same things in a more crudely savage, but less coldly methodical way. For example, beating and culling children in training centers is meant to weed out defective recruits who are "never seen of" again after falling short, rather like the child-euthanasia programs practiced by their German adversaries. Similarly, Stalin perpetrates his own version of Generalplan Ost in the ethnic republics and newly invaded territories in Finland and Poland. Of course, rather than an elaborate network of concentration camps and extermination camps, the Soviets just engineer more Holodomors and shoot the survivors on the spot, before demolishing native landmarks and relocating ethnic Russians to those lands. Scarcely anyone with non-Russian ancestry is spared death by famine, forced labor, or simple execution, save for Stalin's Georgia and a handful of "exceptions" deemed too important to destroy now. The death camps that are built, though, are erected in Siberia to "permanent deal with" Soviet Jewry, which is eerily akin to the "Final Solution" being carried out in the west... Since Stalin cracked down on religion, he would have commit genocide on the Chechens (in OTL, he deported them to Central Asia) and the the Muslim Turkmen. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 26, 2022 10:01:03 GMT
I should also note that my scenario deliberately included parallels to Nazi Germany, albeit of a more "Stalinist" flavor that achieved more or less the same things in a more crudely savage, but less coldly methodical way. For example, beating and culling children in training centers is meant to weed out defective recruits who are "never seen of" again after falling short, rather like the child-euthanasia programs practiced by their German adversaries. Similarly, Stalin perpetrates his own version of Generalplan Ost in the ethnic republics and newly invaded territories in Finland and Poland. Of course, rather than an elaborate network of concentration camps and extermination camps, the Soviets just engineer more Holodomors and shoot the survivors on the spot, before demolishing native landmarks and relocating ethnic Russians to those lands. Scarcely anyone with non-Russian ancestry is spared death by famine, forced labor, or simple execution, save for Stalin's Georgia and a handful of "exceptions" deemed too important to destroy now. The death camps that are built, though, are erected in Siberia to "permanent deal with" Soviet Jewry, which is eerily akin to the "Final Solution" being carried out in the west... Since Stalin cracked down on religion, he would have commit genocide on the Chechens (in OTL, he deported them to Central Asia) and the the Muslim Turkmen. Forgot to include those, but yeah. Not to mention sending minorities and political prisoners deep within Soviet borders (rather than on the hinterlands) to the Siberian death camps alongside their Jewish peers. That, and as previously mentioned, Mad Joe is still hellbent on an apocalyptic (i.e. thermonuclear) war to annihilate capitalism forever, which may involve Hitlerian dehumanization of the Western nations and singling out those of “non-Soviet stock” for destruction, as well. Again, deliberate parallels with Nazism happening here, though of a more “brazenly savage” variety that involves less “over-engineered”, methodically executed methods. |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jan 26, 2022 12:01:24 GMT
Since Stalin cracked down on religion, he would have commit genocide on the Chechens (in OTL, he deported them to Central Asia) and the the Muslim Turkmen. Forgot to include those, but yeah. Not to mention sending minorities and political prisoners deep within Soviet borders (rather than on the hinterlands) to the Siberian death camps alongside their Jewish peers. That, and as previously mentioned, Mad Joe is still hellbent on an apocalyptic (i.e. thermonuclear) war to annihilate capitalism forever, which may involve Hitlerian dehumanization of the Western nations and singling out those of “non-Soviet stock” for destruction, as well. Again, deliberate parallels with Nazism happening here, though of a more “brazenly savage” variety that involves less “over-engineered”, methodically executed methods. Just like in Harry Turtledove's Bombs Away. Mad Joe would lose badly. He may give the U.S. and Europe the black eye, but American superiority in the air, sea, nuclear development, economy, and technological edge would ultimately prevail. Expect to see 200+ instant sunshines on the Rodina. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 26, 2022 12:22:33 GMT
Forgot to include those, but yeah. Not to mention sending minorities and political prisoners deep within Soviet borders (rather than on the hinterlands) to the Siberian death camps alongside their Jewish peers. That, and as previously mentioned, Mad Joe is still hellbent on an apocalyptic (i.e. thermonuclear) war to annihilate capitalism forever, which may involve Hitlerian dehumanization of the Western nations and singling out those of “non-Soviet stock” for destruction, as well. Again, deliberate parallels with Nazism happening here, though of a more “brazenly savage” variety that involves less “over-engineered”, methodically executed methods. Just like in Harry Turtledove's Bombs Away. Mad Joe would lose badly. He may give the U.S. and Europe the black eye, but American superiority in the air, sea, nuclear development, economy, and technological edge would ultimately prevail. Expect to see 200+ instant sunshines on the Rodina. That’d sure suck, though I think he’ll keep enough of his wits intact not to initiate nuclear conflict immediately. Upon further reflection, I suspect Stalin will—again, much like the Nazis—gradually ramp up dehumanization and persecution of “non-Soviet stock”, while also investing heavily in overseas espionage and nuclear technology. Problem is, I don’t think it was until OTL Sixties that the Soviets had a comparable nuclear arsenal to the US, and assuming his OTL lifespan is any indication, Stalin is unlikely to live that long. Although, I also wonder if total Soviet militarization would lead to him pouring everything into nukes ahead of time? Or, if not that, chemical and biological weapons that can be deployed as a huge “Fuck you!” to the West, should the USSR lose in a contest of who has more canned sunshine. Granted, butterflies may throw off the course charted above, depending on whether Stalin goes crazy before or after World War II. However, even if it’s after and he still reached a “mutual understanding” with the W/Allies after carving up Europe, I suppose an ultra-monstrous, increasingly demented Uncle Joe in his twilight years—having perpetrated a Soviet Holocaust, quadrupled the blood purges, mass-kidnapping and culling of Soviet children, and an inverted Generalplan Ost in the ethnic republics and the Eastern Bloc as “payback”—may decide to go out with a bang when death is near. In which case, the final showdown with the West—while one-sided and doomsday for the Soviet Union—will still make Western Europe glow and consign hundreds of millions to death, all because Stalin was even more of a bloodthirsty and spiteful maniac than IOTL. |
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