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Post by American hist on Dec 14, 2021 1:16:19 GMT
Could the Confederates have for a very short time revive the Transatlantic slave trade?
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belushitd
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Post by belushitd on Dec 14, 2021 13:31:59 GMT
Not in any meaningful manner. And certainly not in an official capacity.
The UK had been actively suppressing the slave trade for something like 45 years by the time the ACW broke out. The confederates were trying to get diplomatic recognition from the UK. Resuming the slave trade would have not only prevented any sort of diplomatic recognition, it could have easily led to the UK offering to assist the US in suppressing the rebellion.
Belushi TD
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 14, 2021 14:40:04 GMT
Not in any meaningful manner. And certainly not in an official capacity. The UK had been actively suppressing the slave trade for something like 45 years by the time the ACW broke out. The confederates were trying to get diplomatic recognition from the UK. Resuming the slave trade would have not only prevented any sort of diplomatic recognition, it could have easily led to the UK offering to assist the US in suppressing the rebellion. Belushi TD
Would agree. It would depend on the circumstances of confederate independence but Britain and very likely the rump union would be hostile to such a move. In this scenario Washington, even if its not removed slavery in its own states would quite possibly have removed its objections to the anti-slaver patrols searching union flagged suspected slavers so it would remove the chance of any southern slaver hiding behind the union flag and cause a big diplomatic storm if they tried. The south itself, especially after a probably bitter and draining war to win independence would have a limited merchant marine as its been blockaded for quite a while and Britain might simply ignore any southern objection to ships flying its flag being stopped and searched.
It would also unite the rest of the European world along with I suspect a lot of the Americas against them.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Dec 14, 2021 15:52:39 GMT
Not in any meaningful manner. And certainly not in an official capacity. The UK had been actively suppressing the slave trade for something like 45 years by the time the ACW broke out. The confederates were trying to get diplomatic recognition from the UK. Resuming the slave trade would have not only prevented any sort of diplomatic recognition, it could have easily led to the UK offering to assist the US in suppressing the rebellion. Belushi TD
Would agree. It would depend on the circumstances of confederate independence but Britain and very likely the rump union would be hostile to such a move. In this scenario Washington, even if its not removed slavery in its own states would quite possibly have removed its objections to the anti-slaver patrols searching union flagged suspected slavers so it would remove the chance of any southern slaver hiding behind the union flag and cause a big diplomatic storm if they tried. The south itself, especially after a probably bitter and draining war to win independence would have a limited merchant marine as its been blockaded for quite a while and Britain might simply ignore any southern objection to ships flying its flag being stopped and searched.
It would also unite the rest of the European world along with I suspect a lot of the Americas against them.
In other words, the Confederacy becomes an international pariah and they’re forced to do damage control after trying (and failing miserably) to revive the overseas slave trade? I also assume the internal fallout would be considerable, e.g. blaming the leadership dumb enough to green light this and calling for them to be sacked. |
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Dec 30, 2021 7:39:23 GMT
Could the Confederates have for a very short time revive the Transatlantic slave trade? What would be the gain in doing something as stupid as that when you're trying to gain international recognition from other nations? The south wanted to be free from the United States. Trying to revive the transatlantic slave trade would be the dumbest idea in the long history of dumb ideas. Slavery was on the way out by 1861 and would be even more so by 1865. Could I see somebody wishing for that to happen? Yes. Could I see that idea being pushed by anybody in power? No and anybody in power who pushed for it wouldn't be in power much longer. |
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jjohnson
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Post by jjohnson on Jan 28, 2022 18:02:04 GMT
Could the Confederates have for a very short time revive the Transatlantic slave trade? No. It was unconstitutional for them to do it. |
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Jan 28, 2022 22:26:00 GMT
Could the Confederates have for a very short time revive the Transatlantic slave trade? No. It was unconstitutional for them to do it. It also wouldn't help them win their war as doing so would cause any help that they could get to stop. If the war lasted into 1866 troops may have landed to aid them in their war but the war ended before they could ship over. Still reviving the transatlantic slave trade would be a very bad idea and the person who tried it would be out of a job soon thereafter. There is nothing to be gained by doing this besides being viewed as the most backwards nation/people. Slavery was being killed off. Any nation still using slave labor would be viewed as backwards and unworthy of being a nation. The south needed the aid from the old world nations. The very last thing anybody in power would want is to kill off any hope of ever getting that aid. |
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Post by American hist on Feb 7, 2023 19:50:33 GMT
ell, Jefferson Davis's veto was so he could provide a loophole to bring slaves from Africa I’m not saying this is a very likely question or scenario, as it probably belongs in a space bat material. However, the illegal transatlantic African slave trade did exist. www.nytimes.com/1861/12/13/archives/yancey-and-the-revival-of-the-slavetrade.htmlThese camels were used as a covering for slaves on board the shipThe Ottoman empire, the Spanish empire along with Portugal and Brazil both were operating the transatlantic slave trade so the fireater republic could have a slave trading coalition thinkafrica.net/african-nations-involved-in-the-slave-trade/amp/It would be interesting which African slaving tribes would sell to this slaveholder's Republic. www.nybooks.com/articles/2021/04/08/why-did-the-slave-trade-survive-so-long/However, it would be significantly easier if the CSA bought slaves legally under International law from those powers instead of Africa. The CSA constitution actually was more hard-core against the slave trade than us one and headband, a provision purchasing slaves from other countries, except in the United States www.thenation.com/article/society/john-harris-last-slave-ships/It is interesting to note before the confederate attack fort Sumter, New York City did have a secessionist movement. There were so many people who favored letting the south go before the attack on fort Sumter I am almost opening up an extremely unlikely scenario with neither likely scenario that, arguably or not would require space Space bats, depending on what others believe. |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Feb 8, 2023 7:48:29 GMT
It being illegal is the easiest thing to change. You just have to not include that bit of the constitution. The much harder part is actually doing the trade in any sort of scale. Not only are there patrols to bypass which lead to a percentage of ships being lost, there also isn't any kind of African infrastructure left in the sense of slave fortresses and the like. So they'd have to build those up. And, of course, that gives various colonial powers a great reason to roll them up and to just take over more of the coastal regions. So even discounting the obvious issue of the ongoing war, I don't see any way for it to work.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 8, 2023 16:20:08 GMT
It being illegal is the easiest thing to change. You just have to not include that bit of the constitution. The much harder part is actually doing the trade in any sort of scale. Not only are there patrols to bypass which lead to a percentage of ships being lost, there also isn't any kind of African infrastructure left in the sense of slave fortresses and the like. So they'd have to build those up. And, of course, that gives various colonial powers a great reason to roll them up and to just take over more of the coastal regions. So even discounting the obvious issue of the ongoing war, I don't see any way for it to work.
The question here is how far would Britain, which was the leader of the fight against both slavery and the slave trade go? It was unwilling to go to war with the US over their continued allowance of the slave trade by US flagged ships - since they insisted that only USN ships of which there were few if any on the anti-slavery patrols would be allowed to stop slave ships carrying a US flag - would they be willing to go to war with an independent south? As such its not certain that Britain would be willing to stop CSA slave ships operating off Africa. More likely probably as you suggest faster European involvement in direct intervention to stop slavery at source in W Africa although there was political reluctance to do that in at least some countries as well as the costs of such, in human, fiscal and diplomatic terns.
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Post by American hist on Feb 12, 2023 20:37:01 GMT
I think that the confederates could only have the transatlantic slave trade opened for a short period of time until the British navy would suspect and then find evidence.
It is to be remembered that all of Britains prime ministers were pro confederate, from Palmerston-Gladstone including many of its cabinet members. However, letting them use the African slave trade is quite a different matter. If Napoleon the third and the Confederates had an agreement where France would look the other way, that seems more possible rather than the British tolerant the slave trade. Keep in mind if British captured slaver ships the Confederates would its use its means to fight back, but I think they would rather have the people hanged if they wouldn’t be allowed to continue the slave operations. The slave trade could never last anymore than 10 years and it might actually led the scramble for Africa faster
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Post by Carolus Orlandus on Feb 25, 2023 22:47:40 GMT
It would be complete political suicide for the CSA to reinstate the Transatlantic Slave Trade, especially if it tries to persuade Britain and France to recognize its sovereignty as an independent Nation–State.
Britain abolished slavery within its empire in the 1830s, and the Royal Navy began actively suppressing any slave ships. If the Confederates stupidly wanted to re-establish the Transatlantic Slave Trade, the British government would likely tell the CSA to immediately shut down the idea or ultimately end diplomatic relations with the CSA.
A move like that would be a major propaganda boost / shift for the Lincoln Administration, in which it would easily frame the total abolishment of Slavery as the primary objective of the Civil War much earlier than IOTL.
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Post by raharris1973 on Feb 25, 2023 22:50:21 GMT
There would be domestic pressures against the trade from domestic Confederate slave exporting states like Virginia, North Carolina, and Tennessee, that don't want foreign imports of slaves to undercut the fat profits they are used to getting from the interstate commerce of selling slaves to Florida, Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Texas. Virginia and North Carolina are two of the military and industrial centers of the south, so their negative opinions have some weight.
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Mar 2, 2023 2:21:54 GMT
It would be complete political suicide for the CSA to reinstate the Transatlantic Slave Trade, especially if it tries to persuade Britain and France to recognize its sovereignty as an independent Nation–State. Britain abolished slavery within its empire in the 1830s, and the Royal Navy began actively suppressing any slave ships. If the Confederates stupidly wanted to re-establish the Transatlantic Slave Trade, the British government would likely tell the CSA to immediately shut down the idea or ultimately end diplomatic relations with the CSA. A move like that would be a major propaganda boost / shift for the Lincoln Administration, in which it would easily frame the total abolishment of Slavery as the primary objective of the Civil War much earlier than IOTL. I agree with this view. Nobody in power would want the Transatlantic Slave Trade reopened because that would doom any hope of getting the aid they needed from the old-world powers. Plus such a move from the CSA would only allow Lincoln to frame the war as the end of slavery which it only really become after the win at Gettysburg. Lincoln was clear on his view on slaves. If he could win the war without any slave being freed, he would have been more than happy to do so. The freeing of the slaves was a PR move. It was a great PR move to be sure but that's what it was then and should be the view now. Anybody in power who pushed the idea of reopening this would be out of office by the end of that week if it even took that long. As far as bad ideas go it is easily one of the worst and would be the dearth to whoever put the idea forward. There is no up side with it. No nation worthy of being viewed as one would've allowed for such a trade. |
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Post by American hist on Jun 7, 2023 0:28:03 GMT
For the South to have an African transatlantic slave trade would possibly be more akin to space bats, but let's try to play around with it. Brazil, Spain, and Portugal ended the slave trade after the civil war, and it is essential to mention that these powers were both friendly to the Confederacy. The ottoman empire also persisted in its African slave trade. While friendly to the Union during the civil war due to its cotton imports, the pro-slavery Ottomans could at least find comfort in a pro-slavery nation that theoretically traded with the Ottomans. The South consumed silk, camels, and rugs. In exchange, the CSA could produce weapons for the Ottomans without high protectionist tariffs with the possibility of no tariff charge as there is traditionally light trade traffic. While the North had superior industrial output, the South achieved more than small miracles through its wartime ingenuity. While the South suffered from transportation issues, the CSA congestion, while it forbids governments subsidies and transportation spending, a possible loophole allowed for these taxes to be used for the war effort, so a weapons export shouldn't be thought of as unfeasible, mainly when the South could copy much of the north firearms after the civil war, there were indeed civil war veterans who acted as advisors to Egypt, so it would not be far-fetched to think of a scenario of the South sending Confederates to assisting the ottoman empire It would be interesting if the confederates or an alternative slave trading republic wished to ally with African slave trading tribes to whom those kingdoms would be. While the British empire is not to be messed with, it is still uncomfortable as the British almost acted as defacto allies to the CSA. The french, while they would be hotly agianst a slave trade revival Napoleon the 3rd seems to be more likely to look the other way given his concerns in Mexico and future confederate joint cooperation in the western hemisphere. It was napolean the 3rd who deemed spain is to be a great country again. The slave trade in east Africa didnt stop till 1873The British government could possibly be reluctant to immediately stop the slave trade as they could become preoccupied with the current geo-political situation that has evolved with prussia,Russia,Mexico,and the union. The race for colonisation in africa was in part to stop the slave trade and slavery with some nations showing up late to the game such as Germany granting room for a confederate colony or slave trade activity |
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