Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 1, 2021 2:19:32 GMT
It killed, maimed, shocked, and shattered more than any war before. The moment Gavrilo Princip’s bullet connected with Archduke Ferdinand's body was the moment that locked Europe’s next four years on a path of grinding industrial war and the unprecedented cataclysm it entailed. The resulting war was not one of chivalrous bravery and decisive victory, but a bloodbath of earth-shattering artillery, flesh-ripping machine guns, and futile charges over the top that made the filthy, disease-ridden trenches the soldiers festered in look like a protective (if dirty) embrace. It ended multiple empires, started violent revolutions, traumatized victor and vanquished alike, and left somewhere around twenty-million dead (and tens of millions more wounded). And then, with the final armistice taking effect at 11:00 A.M. on November 11th, 1918, it was over. The First World War finally came to an end.
How unfortunate, then, that a Second World War—one bigger, badder, and two years longer than its not-to-distant predecessor—broke out only two decades later. To that end, what would people living in a world where World War II was never fought react to it? Exact reactions hinge on the specifics of the world itself, of course, such as whether it comes about via the Treaty of Versailles being more conciliatory or Britain and France drawing a firm line in the sand against Hitler’s Germany early (among other possibilities). It also depends on precisely how World War II as we fought it is presented to them, as they might find an in-universe AH book on the subject disturbing, but ultimately ASB compared to a literal portal to OTL 1940s, with its definitive proof of how humanity chose to double down rather than figure it out the first time inspiring far more frightened and appalled reactions on the part of people from the “Only-WW1” universe. (Those are my rather general and amorphous thoughts on the subject, anyway.)
Thank you in advance, Zyobot
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Nov 21, 2021 5:30:48 GMT
It killed, maimed, shocked, and shattered more than any war before. The moment Gavrilo Princip’s bullet connected with Archduke Ferdinand's body was the moment that locked Europe’s next four years on a path of grinding industrial war and the unprecedented cataclysm it entailed. The resulting war was not one of chivalrous bravery and decisive victory, but a bloodbath of earth-shattering artillery, flesh-ripping machine guns, and futile charges over the top that made the filthy, disease-ridden trenches the soldiers festered in look like a protective (if dirty) embrace. It ended multiple empires, started violent revolutions, traumatized victor and vanquished alike, and left somewhere around twenty-million dead (and tens of millions more wounded). And then, with the final armistice taking effect at 11:00 A.M. on November 11th, 1918, it was over. The First World War finally came to an end. How unfortunate, then, that a Second World War—one bigger, badder, and two years longer than its not-to-distant predecessor—broke out only two decades later. To that end, what would people living in a world where World War II was never fought react to it? Exact reactions hinge on the specifics of the world itself, of course, such as whether it comes about via the Treaty of Versailles being more conciliatory or Britain and France drawing a firm line in the sand against Hitler’s Germany early (among other possibilities). It also depends on precisely how World War II as we fought it is presented to them, as they might find an in-universe AH book on the subject disturbing, but ultimately ASB compared to a literal portal to OTL 1940s, with its definitive proof of how humanity chose to double down rather than figure it out the first time inspiring far more frightened and appalled reactions on the part of people from the “Only-WW1” universe. (Those are my rather general and amorphous thoughts on the subject, anyway.) Thank you in advance, Zyobot I would think the idea that a generation later you would essentially be back to where it was before. Only this time the loss of life is far higher and the reasons far darker. World War 1 wasn't something most people could understand. The idea that a war could be worse would be nearly unimaginable. The sheer thought of a bomb so powerful whole cities are removed would be viewed as pure nonsense unless one was to see it's aftereffects. Alot of the big names were in that war so seeing themselves some 20 odd years older would be a sight.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 21, 2021 5:41:51 GMT
It killed, maimed, shocked, and shattered more than any war before. The moment Gavrilo Princip’s bullet connected with Archduke Ferdinand's body was the moment that locked Europe’s next four years on a path of grinding industrial war and the unprecedented cataclysm it entailed. The resulting war was not one of chivalrous bravery and decisive victory, but a bloodbath of earth-shattering artillery, flesh-ripping machine guns, and futile charges over the top that made the filthy, disease-ridden trenches the soldiers festered in look like a protective (if dirty) embrace. It ended multiple empires, started violent revolutions, traumatized victor and vanquished alike, and left somewhere around twenty-million dead (and tens of millions more wounded). And then, with the final armistice taking effect at 11:00 A.M. on November 11th, 1918, it was over. The First World War finally came to an end. How unfortunate, then, that a Second World War—one bigger, badder, and two years longer than its not-to-distant predecessor—broke out only two decades later. To that end, what would people living in a world where World War II was never fought react to it? Exact reactions hinge on the specifics of the world itself, of course, such as whether it comes about via the Treaty of Versailles being more conciliatory or Britain and France drawing a firm line in the sand against Hitler’s Germany early (among other possibilities). It also depends on precisely how World War II as we fought it is presented to them, as they might find an in-universe AH book on the subject disturbing, but ultimately ASB compared to a literal portal to OTL 1940s, with its definitive proof of how humanity chose to double down rather than figure it out the first time inspiring far more frightened and appalled reactions on the part of people from the “Only-WW1” universe. (Those are my rather general and amorphous thoughts on the subject, anyway.) Thank you in advance, Zyobot I would think the idea that a generation later you would essentially be back to where it was before. Only this time the loss of life is far higher and the reasons far darker. World War 1 wasn't something most people could understand. The idea that a war could be worse would be nearly unimaginable. The sheer thought of a bomb so powerful whole cities are removed would be viewed as pure nonsense unless one was to see it's aftereffects. Alot of the big names were in that war so seeing themselves some 20 odd years older would be a sight. I’d ask if you think it’s possible for nukes to develop in different circumstances than World War II as we know it, but that strays a bit beyond the scope of this thread. Otherwise, I agree on the atom bomb having insane shock value; being destructive enough to make chemical and biological weapons look like children’s toys tends to do that. Depending on how their lives turn out, it’d also be an interesting case study in how luck and happenstance can propel obscure figures into positions of power, as had happened with both Hitler and Stalin. (This assumes their ATL counterparts remain unknown figures who contribute little to nothing in the grand scheme of things, admittedly.)
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Nov 29, 2021 0:35:43 GMT
I would think the idea that a generation later you would essentially be back to where it was before. Only this time the loss of life is far higher and the reasons far darker. World War 1 wasn't something most people could understand. The idea that a war could be worse would be nearly unimaginable. The sheer thought of a bomb so powerful whole cities are removed would be viewed as pure nonsense unless one was to see it's aftereffects. Alot of the big names were in that war so seeing themselves some 20 odd years older would be a sight. I’d ask if you think it’s possible for nukes to develop in different circumstances than World War II as we know it, but that strays a bit beyond the scope of this thread. Otherwise, I agree on the atom bomb having insane shock value; being destructive enough to make chemical and biological weapons look like children’s toys tends to do that. Depending on how their lives turn out, it’d also be an interesting case study in how luck and happenstance can propel obscure figures into positions of power, as had happened with both Hitler and Stalin. (This assumes their ATL counterparts remain unknown figures who contribute little to nothing in the grand scheme of things, admittedly.) I don't know what the scientific understanding on atoms was at the time of the first world war but war is a great thing to get people thinking on it. I fundamentally don't see a logical reason why we couldn't see the advent of nuclear weapons before 1936-1938. The Manhattan Project was started in 1942 and ended in 1946. So if you pick some of the best minds to the task of finding a way to split the atom and you should be able to see the advent of nuclear weapons, at least in the intermediate years after the war. If you're asking do I think we can see that in this war. The answer is no.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 29, 2021 16:23:10 GMT
I’d ask if you think it’s possible for nukes to develop in different circumstances than World War II as we know it, but that strays a bit beyond the scope of this thread. Otherwise, I agree on the atom bomb having insane shock value; being destructive enough to make chemical and biological weapons look like children’s toys tends to do that. Depending on how their lives turn out, it’d also be an interesting case study in how luck and happenstance can propel obscure figures into positions of power, as had happened with both Hitler and Stalin. (This assumes their ATL counterparts remain unknown figures who contribute little to nothing in the grand scheme of things, admittedly.) I don't know what the scientific understanding on atoms was at the time of the first world war but war is a great thing to get people thinking on it. I fundamentally don't see a logical reason why we couldn't see the advent of nuclear weapons before 1936-1938. The Manhattan Project was started in 1942 and ended in 1946. So if you pick some of the best minds to the task of finding a way to split the atom and you should be able to see the advent of nuclear weapons, at least in the intermediate years after the war. If you're asking do I think we can see that in this war. The answer is no.
Must admit I'm doubtful of this. WWI helped give experience of the huge technological and bureaucratic projects that would be needed for such research but also left a lot of very intelligent people dead, an antipathy to weapons among many and also a rejection of scientific advancement among others. It was the further demands of WWII - and especially the fears that the Nazis might get them 1st - that drove much of the massive project involved to complete their development by 1945.
As such I think without WWII nukes would come later. They might be more generally spread as also without WWII devastating so much of the world and also their use prompting demands for their control, you could see a fair number of powers developing them in the late 40's and early 50's onward. Of course what would matter in this world would be when and under what circumstances their 1st 'used' as weapons. Which could be very costly if assorted powers develop them with a measure of secrecy as there's the danger of more than one power thinking they had a monopoly. Plus with possible large numbers of weapons being detonated in the 1st time their used in warfare things could be a lot bloodier and possibly a very powerful reaction against them afterwards. Don't think this would result in many - probably none - of the existing powers ending their nuclear capacity as a large war would show how there's no clear counter to them other than deterrence.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 7, 2022 20:12:57 GMT
Since military history seems to be your specialty, miletus12, I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on this? As said in the OP, I know exact reactions depend on the details of how an only-WW1 develops, which may range from "WTF?!?" to "Oh, so that's how war with Mr. Hitler would've gone, had Britain and France appeased him."
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jan 7, 2022 21:31:44 GMT
I don't know what the scientific understanding on atoms was at the time of the first world war but war is a great thing to get people thinking on it. I fundamentally don't see a logical reason why we couldn't see the advent of nuclear weapons before 1936-1938. The Manhattan Project was started in 1942 and ended in 1946. So if you pick some of the best minds to the task of finding a way to split the atom and you should be able to see the advent of nuclear weapons, at least in the intermediate years after the war. But that is almost what happened. It was just a six-year slippage. Since military history seems to be your specialty, miletus12, I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on this? As said in the OP, I know exact reactions depend on the details of how an only-WW1 develops, which may range from "WTF?!?" to "Oh, so that's how war with Mr. Hitler would've gone, had Britain and France appeased him." For a WWII to be prevented, one has to suggest that the Allies win in Russia in 1919 and that somehow Woodrow Wilson does not muck it all up and the US joins the League of Nations. Also; WWI 1919 has to happen. No armistice. Fight to victory and that means one occupies Germany in a semblance of the four-power agreement post WWII with the zones being France, UK, US, and Italy. I leave it up to you to speculate about the additional 5-10 million dead in WWI (1919) and the subsequent US-Japanese war of 1930.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 9, 2022 12:52:22 GMT
I don't know what the scientific understanding on atoms was at the time of the first world war but war is a great thing to get people thinking on it. I fundamentally don't see a logical reason why we couldn't see the advent of nuclear weapons before 1936-1938. The Manhattan Project was started in 1942 and ended in 1946. So if you pick some of the best minds to the task of finding a way to split the atom and you should be able to see the advent of nuclear weapons, at least in the intermediate years after the war. But that is almost what happened. It was just a six-year slippage. Since military history seems to be your specialty, miletus12, I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on this? As said in the OP, I know exact reactions depend on the details of how an only-WW1 develops, which may range from "WTF?!?" to "Oh, so that's how war with Mr. Hitler would've gone, had Britain and France appeased him." For a WWII to be prevented, one has to suggest that the Allies win in Russia in 1919 and that somehow Woodrow Wilson does not muck it all up and the US joins the League of Nations. Also; WWI 1919 has to happen. No armistice. Fight to victory and that means one occupies Germany in a semblance of the four-power agreement post WWII with the zones being France, UK, US, and Italy. I leave it up to you to speculate about the additional 5-10 million dead in WWI (1919) and the subsequent US-Japanese war of 1930.
Interesting post but doubtful of this last bit. If the liberal powers win big time and there's less horror at the pointlessness of WWI then Japan is likely to stay liberal itself longer and also be more aware of the dangers of becoming an isolated militaristic state. Similarly if WWI goes into 1919 and its anything like as bloody as your suggesting then the US will have suffered markedly more casualties so it turn its probably unlikely to be aggressive enough to pick a war with Japan. As such I can't see the basis for a US-Japan war, especially in this time period as a likely event.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jan 9, 2022 20:04:45 GMT
Interesting post but doubtful of this last bit. If the liberal powers win big time and there's less horror at the pointlessness of WWI then Japan is likely to stay liberal itself longer and also be more aware of the dangers of becoming an isolated militaristic state. Similarly if WWI goes into 1919 and its anything like as bloody as your suggesting then the US will have suffered markedly more casualties so it turn its probably unlikely to be aggressive enough to pick a war with Japan. As such I can't see the basis for a US-Japan war, especially in this time period as a likely event. Plan Orange was inevitable. The Japanese were already down the slippery slope and well on their way by the time of the Tanaka administration. As for WWI (1919), I suspect I underestimate the horrors involved. The US reaction, presuming that Wilson dies and Thomas R. Marshall takes over; it is very likely that Pershing will run over him, even more than Pershing ran over Wilson. It could result in the very kind of militarization one sees happen after the Korean War. Especially if Pershing, who had a severe case of swelled head and inflated ego, runs for and wins the presidency in 1922. It is not unreasonable to see the same kind of propaganda apparatus, Wilson invented, being used to sell Pershingism the way it will be used in Europe to sell another kind of militarism, there in the 1920s and 1930s. I am afraid it is all too plausible that the Americans will become even more jingoistic.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 10, 2022 12:23:30 GMT
Interesting post but doubtful of this last bit. If the liberal powers win big time and there's less horror at the pointlessness of WWI then Japan is likely to stay liberal itself longer and also be more aware of the dangers of becoming an isolated militaristic state. Similarly if WWI goes into 1919 and its anything like as bloody as your suggesting then the US will have suffered markedly more casualties so it turn its probably unlikely to be aggressive enough to pick a war with Japan. As such I can't see the basis for a US-Japan war, especially in this time period as a likely event. Plan Orange was inevitable. The Japanese were already down the slippery slope and well on their way by the time of the Tanaka administration. As for WWI (1919), I suspect I underestimate the horrors involved. The US reaction, presuming that Wilson dies and Thomas R. Marshall takes over; it is very likely that Pershing will run over him, even more than Pershing ran over Wilson. It could result in the very kind of militarization one sees happen after the Korean War. Especially if Pershing, who had a severe case of swelled head and inflated ego, runs for and wins the presidency in 1922. It is not unreasonable to see the same kind of propaganda apparatus, Wilson invented, being used to sell Pershingism the way it will be used in Europe to sell another kind of militarism, there in the 1920s and 1930s. I am afraid it is all too plausible that the Americans will become even more jingoistic.
It a possibility but could a man under who's leadership the American army suffered probably 1-2 million causalities, even without the flu pandemic be a successful Presidential candidate? Also if the US goes off the rails that quickly its going to be seen as a threat by the allies as well as Japan. Not to mention that the sort of fascism that infected Germany and Japan would be a total disaster for the US. The lesser kind that hit Italy, Spain and a number of the smaller European states would be bad enough for them.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jan 10, 2022 18:57:54 GMT
It a possibility but could a man under who's leadership the American army suffered probably 1-2 million causalities, even without the flu pandemic be a successful Presidential candidate? Also if the US goes off the rails that quickly its going to be seen as a threat by the allies as well as Japan. Not to mention that the sort of fascism that infected Germany and Japan would be a total disaster for the US. The lesser kind that hit Italy, Spain and a number of the smaller European states would be bad enough for them. Let us look at Pershing.Now: here are a few other details not covered. His troops torpedoed his presidential run.This is the background on Pershing. He set the tone for American operational art in WWI (Inept.). There was none to be had from him. Insofar as there was any kind of actual thought in the upper level of command about TACTICS, (See Map.), it was mostly frontal assaults of the 1916 style against secondary sector fortified trench lines against Class II German formations. Foch made these arrangements to free up French and British concentrations further north and west, especially the French under Maistre. But notice that the Americans were supposed to be the right hook of a double movement aimed at the railroad near Sedan that supplied Gallwitz? If the Americans got to Sedan, they would split the front that Gallwitz held. That opens an exploit route (seam) for Maistre to the American left, to move on Mezieria, This would crack the whole front apart. Pershing, or rather Liggett bungled the Argonne part of the operation, and it was actually the French who took Sedan instead of American First Army as planned. If the British Tommy hated "Butcher" Haig, then imagine what the Americans thought of their "overglorified lawyer turned meatcutter". BTW; The Rainbow Division under the temporary command of one "Douglas Macarthur" finally broke through Gallwitz's defenses and opened a route through the Argonne. Insofar as Pershing had any politics at all, he was of the "progressive wing" of the democratic party. He was not supported by "big business" who were suspicious of his funny ideas about equity and social order. In whatever limited public statements he made, he sounded more like Wilson than anyone else as far as can be judged. Wilson was and is not a good model for what to expect from Pershing, because Wilson, himself, was a proto-fascist, if something like that existed in 1918. =========================================================================================== Could America have gone fascist? How much does one know about the Kingfisher? This man was so dangerous that even FDR was afraid of him. The background on Long was that he was a dictator. Yes, that is correct, in the United States, a politician was able to establish an authoritarian state, Louisiana, that only was released from his grip when he was assassinated. So, it was and is possible for the Americans to go fascist by 1930.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 11, 2022 14:06:35 GMT
It a possibility but could a man under who's leadership the American army suffered probably 1-2 million causalities, even without the flu pandemic be a successful Presidential candidate? Also if the US goes off the rails that quickly its going to be seen as a threat by the allies as well as Japan. Not to mention that the sort of fascism that infected Germany and Japan would be a total disaster for the US. The lesser kind that hit Italy, Spain and a number of the smaller European states would be bad enough for them. Let us look at Pershing.Now: here are a few other details not covered. His troops torpedoed his presidential run.This is the background on Pershing. He set the tone for American operational art in WWI (Inept.). There was none to be had from him. Insofar as there was any kind of actual thought in the upper level of command about TACTICS, (See Map.), it was mostly frontal assaults of the 1916 style against secondary sector fortified trench lines against Class II German formations. Foch made these arrangements to free up French and British concentrations further north and west, especially the French under Maistre. But notice that the Americans were supposed to be the right hook of a double movement aimed at the railroad near Sedan that supplied Gallwitz? If the Americans got to Sedan, they would split the front that Gallwitz held. That opens an exploit route (seam) for Maistre to the American left, to move on Mezieria, This would crack the whole front apart. Pershing, or rather Liggett bungled the Argonne part of the operation, and it was actually the French who took Sedan instead of American First Army as planned. If the British Tommy hated "Butcher" Haig, then imagine what the Americans thought of their "overglorified lawyer turned meatcutter". BTW; The Rainbow Division under the temporary command of one "Douglas Macarthur" finally broke through Gallwitz's defenses and opened a route through the Argonne. Insofar as Pershing had any politics at all, he was of the "progressive wing" of the democratic party. He was not supported by "big business" who were suspicious of his funny ideas about equity and social order. In whatever limited public statements he made, he sounded more like Wilson than anyone else as far as can be judged. Wilson was and is not a good model for what to expect from Pershing, because Wilson, himself, was a proto-fascist, if something like that existed in 1918. =========================================================================================== Could America have gone fascist? How much does one know about the Kingfisher? This man was so dangerous that even FDR was afraid of him. The background on Long was that he was a dictator. Yes, that is correct, in the United States, a politician was able to establish an authoritarian state, Louisiana, that only was released from his grip when he was assassinated. So, it was and is possible for the Americans to go fascist by 1930. Okay, interesting ATL scenario, but what does this all mean for ATL reactions to World War II as it unfolded IOTL? Even if further fighting is slated to take place and lots of people are destined to die in it, compared to an even bigger, bloodier, and more global war that would’ve killed maybe sixty million instead, well…
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 11, 2022 15:00:55 GMT
Let us look at Pershing.Now: here are a few other details not covered. His troops torpedoed his presidential run.This is the background on Pershing. He set the tone for American operational art in WWI (Inept.). There was none to be had from him. Insofar as there was any kind of actual thought in the upper level of command about TACTICS, (See Map.), it was mostly frontal assaults of the 1916 style against secondary sector fortified trench lines against Class II German formations. Foch made these arrangements to free up French and British concentrations further north and west, especially the French under Maistre. But notice that the Americans were supposed to be the right hook of a double movement aimed at the railroad near Sedan that supplied Gallwitz? If the Americans got to Sedan, they would split the front that Gallwitz held. That opens an exploit route (seam) for Maistre to the American left, to move on Mezieria, This would crack the whole front apart. Pershing, or rather Liggett bungled the Argonne part of the operation, and it was actually the French who took Sedan instead of American First Army as planned. If the British Tommy hated "Butcher" Haig, then imagine what the Americans thought of their "overglorified lawyer turned meatcutter". BTW; The Rainbow Division under the temporary command of one "Douglas Macarthur" finally broke through Gallwitz's defenses and opened a route through the Argonne. Insofar as Pershing had any politics at all, he was of the "progressive wing" of the democratic party. He was not supported by "big business" who were suspicious of his funny ideas about equity and social order. In whatever limited public statements he made, he sounded more like Wilson than anyone else as far as can be judged. Wilson was and is not a good model for what to expect from Pershing, because Wilson, himself, was a proto-fascist, if something like that existed in 1918. =========================================================================================== Could America have gone fascist? How much does one know about the Kingfisher? This man was so dangerous that even FDR was afraid of him. The background on Long was that he was a dictator. Yes, that is correct, in the United States, a politician was able to establish an authoritarian state, Louisiana, that only was released from his grip when he was assassinated. So, it was and is possible for the Americans to go fascist by 1930. Okay, interesting ATL scenario, but what does this all mean for ATL reactions to World War II as it unfolded IOTL? Even if further fighting is slated to take place and lots of people are destined to die in it, compared to an even bigger, bloodier, and more global war that would’ve killed maybe sixty million instead, well…
I think miletus12, was responding to my earlier post doubting that: a) General Pershing was a likely Presidential candidate in the scenario she proposed, that the war continues into 1919 with far more American deaths in battle. From the links she posted it sounds like he was distinctly ambivalent about actually standing as President OTL so not sure it would be that different in her proposed TL.
b) She also mention that the US would be jingoistic enough to attack Japan in ~1930. I raised doubts about that and think that prompted her arguing a case for Long as a potential fascist leader of the US although given his age I suspect while a possibility it wouldn't occur until the mid or late 30's. Given that I have seen reference that Long was an ardent isolationist who would have been highly unlikely to pick a fight with Japan. See Huey_Long_Chaco_War_and_foreign_policy where his isolationism is mentioned and he wanted immediate independent for the Philippines to avoid US possession of it possibly dragging the US into a war.
Steve
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 11, 2022 15:43:20 GMT
Okay, interesting ATL scenario, but what does this all mean for ATL reactions to World War II as it unfolded IOTL? Even if further fighting is slated to take place and lots of people are destined to die in it, compared to an even bigger, bloodier, and more global war that would’ve killed maybe sixty million instead, well…
I think miletus12 , was responding to my earlier post doubting that: a) General Pershing was a likely Presidential candidate in the scenario she proposed, that the war continues into 1919 with far more American deaths in battle. From the links she posted it sounds like he was distinctly ambivalent about actually standing as President OTL so not sure it would be that different in her proposed TL.
b) She also mention that the US would be jingoistic enough to attack Japan in ~1930. I raised doubts about that and think that prompted her arguing a case for Long as a potential fascist leader of the US although given his age I suspect while a possibility it wouldn't occur until the mid or late 30's. Given that I have seen reference that Long was an ardent isolationist who would have been highly unlikely to pick a fight with Japan. See Huey_Long_Chaco_War_and_foreign_policy where his isolationism is mentioned and he wanted immediate independent for the Philippines to avoid US possession of it possibly dragging the US into a war.
Steve
I know.
Was just wondering what Miletus predicts ATL reactions to World War II as it happened will be? Like I said, even if the Great War lasts into 1919 and war with Japan breaks out in the 1930s, that's still not as bad as the brief hiatus and even bigger firestorm we got IOTL.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jan 11, 2022 23:57:24 GMT
I think miletus12 , was responding to my earlier post doubting that: a) General Pershing was a likely Presidential candidate in the scenario she proposed, that the war continues into 1919 with far more American deaths in battle. From the links she posted it sounds like he was distinctly ambivalent about actually standing as President OTL so not sure it would be that different in her proposed TL. b) She also mention that the US would be jingoistic enough to attack Japan in ~1930. I raised doubts about that and think that prompted her arguing a case for Long as a potential fascist leader of the US although given his age I suspect while a possibility it wouldn't occur until the mid or late 30's. Given that I have seen reference that Long was an ardent isolationist who would have been highly unlikely to pick a fight with Japan. See Huey_Long_Chaco_War_and_foreign_policy where his isolationism is mentioned and he wanted immediate independent for the Philippines to avoid US possession of it possibly dragging the US into a war. Steve
I know. Was just wondering what Miletus predicts ATL reactions to World War II as it happened will be? Like I said, even if the Great War lasts into 1919 and war with Japan breaks out in the 1930s, that's still not as bad as the brief hiatus and even bigger firestorm we got IOTL.
I am not convinced that with a lunatic like Stalin in the offing that one avoids WWII. And I would point out further that Huey Long is a lot like Mussolini in his activities and opportunism. He might be "racist" as regards African Americans and Filipinos, but that does not mean he was "isolationist". His racism explains why he wanted to jettison the Philippine Islands and Puerto Rico. His claim to that isolationist label actually comes from his hatred of Standard Oil, who would not play ball with him as to his financial and political scheming in Louisiana. He was perfectly willing to say he was isolationist in opposition to FDR because he claimed "Standard Oil" dictated US foreign policy and they thus owned Roosevelt.
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