lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 64,710 
Likes: 45,793
|
Post by lordroel on Sept 29, 2021 18:55:21 GMT
So i found this on my computer, it is a uncompleted TL i one made but it does provide some toughs on how a carrier fleet would look like if Colossus-class aircraft carrier HNLMS Karel Doorman remain in service for a few more years and when its replacement would arrive.
On April 26th 1968 a boiler fire ended the Colossus-class aircraft carrier HNLMS Karel Doorman career in the Royal Netherlands Navy, but what if the boiler fire never happened and a another event removed the decision off ending HNLMS Karel Doorman career in 1972, what would the Royal Netherlands Navy look like in the future, this is my attempt to create that future.
1968
On April 26th 1968 a sailor on board the Royal Netherlands Navy Colossus-class aircraft carrier HNLMS Karel Doorman prevents a boiler fire in the front boiler room from turning into a major disaster.
1969
On May 30th the commander of squadron 5 (aircraft carrier, HNLMS Karel Doorman, De Zeven Provinciën class cruiser, HNLMS De Ruyter, Holland class destroyers, HNLMS Groningen, HNLMS Utrecht, HNLMS Rotterdam and Dolfijn class submarine HNLMS Zeehond) is notified while conducting an anti-submarine exercise with the Colombian Navy, that a revolt in Willemstad, Curacao has broken out, and that the Governor of the Netherlands Antilles has requested the help of squadron 5.
After arriving of the coast of Curacao the commander of squadron 5, decides to use the 6 S-58 anti-submarine warfare helicopters onboard the carrier to transport Royal Netherlands Marines deployed at marine barracks in Savaneta, Aruba to Willemstad, Curacao while using the 8 Grumman S-2 Trackers to monitor the riots from the high above.
After two days of rioting the presence of the Royal Netherlands Marines in Willemstad, Curacao , the Grumman S-2 Trackers flying over the city, keeping an eye out for any large movement of groups and the fall of the Netherlands Antilles Government results that the riots end.
1970
Thanks to the successful deployment of HNLMS Karel Doorman in the Willemstad riots, the Netherlands government decides to keep HNLMS Karel Doorman in service for several more years.
1971
De Zeven Provinciën class cruiser, HNLMS De Zeven Provinciën takes over the role of flagship of the Royal Netherlands Navy for the period of one year that HNLMS Karel Doorman will be in dry-docks.
The Netherlands government orders 12 Westland Sea King anti-submarine warfare helicopters who will replace the S-58 anti-submarine warfare helicopters for use onboard the aircraft carrier, HNLMS Karel Doorman.
1972
Aircraft carrier, HNLMS Karel Doorman leaves dry-dock and take back its role as flagship of the Royal Netherlands Navy from De Zeven Provinciën class cruiser, HNLMS De Zeven Provinciën.
|
|
1bigrich
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 453
Likes: 567
|
Post by 1bigrich on Oct 22, 2021 7:07:00 GMT
I've been giving this one some thought. The care and feeding of aircraft carriers can be an expensive proposition for most nations, so perhaps the first ingredient in keeping the RNN flying is larger, more robust economy in the Netherlands.
That said, if we are going to keep the RNN in the carrier business, I think successor carriers need to be considered.
Having Karel Doorman avoids the boiler fire and is kept in service in the 1970s, she would likely be replaced early in the 1980s. In Europe, there are some concepts around, the RN's Invincible class, the MM's Garibaldi and the AE's Principe de Asturias adaptation of the USN's Sea Control Ship. Though I wouldn't discount a domestic design; the RNN has proven quite innovative with powerful, capable ships. But let's say the design is akin to the Sea Control ship, to keep costs down. With the Harrier operating from Hermes and haven been proven on USS Guam's "proof of concept" deployment, a small number are procured for the RNN for fleet defense and limited strike. The new ship has a modest 7 degree ski jump forward for the Harriers. The ASW mission is now completely taken over by helicopters. We'll call her Eendracht for the purposes of this hypothetical.
After the Falklsnds conflict, the RNN would likely procure something like the Royal Navy's helicopter-borne AEW radar to improve fleet defense. At her first large refit, Eendracht is modified with a 12 degree ski jump for her Harriers. and additional aircraft are procured. While ASW remains the primary mission, the navy is gaining capability to surge Harriers on board in case a fighter defense or strike mission is called for. Those extra VSTOL fighters are land based, used for training, with the fixed wing force rotating between sea and land deployments.
That situation happens in 1991, when the carrier deploys to the Persian Gulf, carrying mostly Harriers, a couple AEW and SAR helicopters. She successfully conducts operations off Kuwait and Iraq, and is later deployed to the Persian Gulf for invasion of Iraq.
By 2015, the RNN is looking for a replacement, and she is to replaced by a pair of large multipurpose ships with large flight decks to carry F-35Bs and helicopters in strike, ASW, assault or disaster relief roles.
My thoughts,
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 64,710
Likes: 45,793
|
Post by lordroel on Oct 22, 2021 7:25:10 GMT
By 2015, the RNN is looking for a replacement, and she is to replaced by a pair of large multipurpose ships with large flight decks to carry F-35Bs and helicopters in strike, ASW, assault or disaster relief roles. My thoughts, Well i do not know what would fit in the 1970 to 2000 cap but Damen did design the Enforcer 18000 LHD wich would be a good design for the RNN if they like to keep some airborne capability.  |
|
1bigrich
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 453
Likes: 567
|
Post by 1bigrich on Oct 22, 2021 22:33:07 GMT
Well i do not know what would fit in the 1970 to 2000 cap but Damen did design the Enforcer 18000 LHD wich would be a good design for the RNN if they like to keep some airborne capability.
That's a good example of an innovative design, but I'm thinking of something larger. Something like the Trieste, or maybe even a little bigger, say 30,000 tons. Capable of underway replenishment of escorts, flight operations for strike or ASW, assault functions via helicopter or disaster relief.
My thoughts,
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 64,710
Likes: 45,793
|
Post by lordroel on Oct 23, 2021 12:38:27 GMT
Well i do not know what would fit in the 1970 to 2000 cap but Damen did design the Enforcer 18000 LHD wich would be a good design for the RNN if they like to keep some airborne capability. That's a good example of an innovative design, but I'm thinking of something larger. Something like the Trieste, or maybe even a little bigger, say 30,000 tons. Capable of underway replenishment of escorts, flight operations for strike or ASW, assault functions via helicopter or disaster relief.
My thoughts,
What about this.  |
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Oct 23, 2021 15:45:47 GMT
As ever, we seem to be going around it in the wrong way, looking for the justification to allow the ship. Rather, what are the specific needs and roles of the RNN?
There is not a blue water role as of the 1970s and 1980s when the key decisions are to be made. There might, might be a window for a Spanish type CVH configured for the North Sea ASW role in support of Dutch operations in Norway, but this would be darned costly. There would also need to be a proper escort fleet to go with it, not the cut price version of @.
I can't see the putative Eendracht lasting to 2015 in @, nor being replaced by multiple decks. The size of the defence budget and role simply isn't there. Forget strike or major fixed wing operations - this would need to be an LPH with a dual ASW role.
Extending the life of Karel Doorman is exactly the wrong thing to do, as it pushes the replacement decision down the line to a period where carriers were supposedly on the way out + Dutch defence spending contracted.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 64,710
Likes: 45,793
|
Post by lordroel on Oct 23, 2021 16:44:24 GMT
As ever, we seem to be going around it in the wrong way, looking for the justification to allow the ship. Rather, what are the specific needs and roles of the RNN? Something like the Juan Carlos I. |
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Oct 23, 2021 16:58:01 GMT
Perhaps. Rather than simply putting forward a ship, what are the specific missions that would need to be filled in the 1960s-80s. In the modern context, 2 Rotterdam’s are better than one LHD
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 64,710
Likes: 45,793
|
Post by lordroel on Oct 23, 2021 18:28:06 GMT
Perhaps. Rather than simply putting forward a ship, what are the specific missions that would need to be filled in the 1960s-80s. In the modern context, 2 Rotterdam’s are better than one LHD Think ASW warfare and also limit capability to ferry marines by helicopter would be a mission. |
|
1bigrich
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 453
Likes: 567
|
Post by 1bigrich on Oct 23, 2021 23:32:36 GMT
As ever, we seem to be going around it in the wrong way, looking for the justification to allow the ship. Rather, what are the specific needs and roles of the RNN? There is not a blue water role as of the 1970s and 1980s when the key decisions are to be made. There might, might be a window for a Spanish type CVH configured for the North Sea ASW role in support of Dutch operations in Norway, but this would be darned costly. There would also need to be a proper escort fleet to go with it, not the cut price version of @. I can't see the putative Eendracht lasting to 2015 in @, nor being replaced by multiple decks. The size of the defence budget and role simply isn't there. Forget strike or major fixed wing operations - this would need to be an LPH with a dual ASW role. Extending the life of Karel Doorman is exactly the wrong thing to do, as it pushes the replacement decision down the line to a period where carriers were supposedly on the way out + Dutch defence spending contracted. I'm thinking Eendracht will be a major part of NATOs Standing Naval Force Channel, and leading ASW formations will be her primary role.
To your point on budgets, that why I said the first ingredient might be a larger economy in the Netherlands to make keeping a carrier affordable.
Regards,
|
|
1bigrich
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 453
Likes: 567
|
Post by 1bigrich on Oct 23, 2021 23:33:23 GMT
What about this.
No image showing for me, lordroel.
Regards,
|
|
1bigrich
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 453
Likes: 567
|
Post by 1bigrich on Oct 23, 2021 23:36:59 GMT
Think ASW warfare and also limit capability to ferry marines by helicopter would be a mission. I'm thinking ASW in the North Sea and Channel as the main mission.
But also with the size, range and stores to support a small RNN task force on distant operations, with or without allied assistance. And I think disaster relief would be one of those missions.
My thoughts,
|
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Oct 24, 2021 3:02:49 GMT
The issue is that ASW in the English Channel doesn’t require a carrier.
There might be a role for an Ocean-esque LPH during the Cold War for Norwegian deployment, but the Dutch only have a battalion to go there; an LPD will do. Unless there is a role for blue water ASW or amphibious ops, a carrier is overkill.
|
|
