miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jan 3, 2022 19:24:01 GMT
That would depend on their propaganda aims. It was Britain that protected China from partition for much of the 19thC. More recently the US was the power that supporter the KMT and has protected Taiwan and is the power that China has to overcome to become the desired top dog.
Actually, I agree, but I was thinking of the "Century of Shame" The Chinese really have a mad on about that one. Not just the PRC, either.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jan 4, 2022 6:29:27 GMT
This is countered...
That is more than about submarines? When one talks information warfare, that means attacks on command, control, communications and information collection. IOW, AUKUS is about disrupting Chinese *(and Russian) operations through the global communications systems.
Incidentally, PM Morrison has a big mouth. One should not have revealed an Indian Ocean sonar tracking network to the PLAN.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 4, 2022 12:42:28 GMT
This is countered... That is more than about submarines? When one talks information warfare, that means attacks on command, control, communications and information collection. IOW, AUKUS is about disrupting Chinese *(and Russian) operations through the global communications systems. Incidentally, PM Morrison has a big mouth. One should not have revealed an Indian Ocean sonar tracking network to the PLAN.
Watching the 1st one - most of it anyway - it does seem that things are falling apart quickly. Both an apparent lack of interest in the US in the programme and chaotic and irresponsible statements in Australia.
The 2nd video isn't loading for me but even if he thinks the Chinese already know about he I would agree that its bloody stupid to reveal such details. Edit - it worked on a 2nd attempt. Most of those two minutes were waffle. The only bit I noticed he mentioned that might have hinted about such a capacity was a line about "joint undersea capability" when he was talking about information gathering and exchange. Was that what you meant?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 4, 2022 15:55:49 GMT
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jan 4, 2022 20:18:46 GMT
This is countered... That is more than about submarines? When one talks information warfare, that means attacks on command, control, communications and information collection. IOW, AUKUS is about disrupting Chinese *(and Russian) operations through the global communications systems. Incidentally, PM Morrison has a big mouth. One should not have revealed an Indian Ocean sonar tracking network to the PLAN. Watching the 1st one - most of it anyway - it does seem that things are falling apart quickly. Both an apparent lack of interest in the US in the programme and chaotic and irresponsible statements in Australia.
The 2nd video isn't loading for me but even if he thinks the Chinese already know about he I would agree that its bloody stupid to reveal such details. Edit - it worked on a 2nd attempt. Most of those two minutes were waffle. The only bit I noticed he mentioned that might have hinted about such a capacity was a line about "joint undersea capability" when he was talking about information gathering and exchange. Was that what you meant?
1. I am not on the ground in Australia, so I cannot speak to the specific politics and personalities behind the Australian side of the issue. From this remote distance, Labor party politicians seem to be for "building" the boats in Adelaide as a mere jobs program as mentioned upthread. Some of them may be clueless about how building the boats is actually a two phase buy of foreign first tranche and domestic second tranche or why the jobs program they want is not going to happen overnight. Or rather they are trying to pin the current government down for the blame, when the next Labor government voted in, decides to cancel the deal because it is too expensive and will never "arrive in time". 2. On the American side, I have more local information. The USN has a vested interest in the program. Article.Another article which has slipped notice... UK nuclear-powered submarine visit to Perth (AUS) Correct interpretation: "Here you go, mates. Take a look at what we want to sell you." In context, why the Indian Ocean and other "strategic seas" surveillance system is part of the submarine program. That means: the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy have gone to their army warlords and plutocrat rulers and told them that the denial of access strategy they, the PLAN possess, will not work against a submarine force they cannot fight. The enemy can move into the adjacent seas and prevent blue water sorties by the PLAN. I agree that grand strategy belongs in that thread. The submarine Australia picks, will depend on what slice of coverage the RAN is allotted in an alliance war. If they buy Astutes, then it is blue water operations. If it is Virginia, it is inshore or brown or shallow seas areas. The submarine, if it is British, is anti-ship and anti-submarine in the Indian Ocean and other deep waters in mission. If it is a Virginia or something like it, the sea denial will be coastal. According to the Taiwanese source, the PLAN is frightened that the Australian choice may be an American designed weapon platform. As to whether the AUKUS program is in trouble in the US, that depends on how one looks at the news globally. The American president has been adjudged by some of the American ruling elites as a placeholder who may be a one term folly. He is likely going to be replaced in 2024. This may affect the near-term news coverage of the AUKUS deal in America for this reason. In the specific terms of AUKUS, this is, from the American point of view, one piece in a vast political jigsaw puzzle of where the Americans want to go and do with China. Strictly in terms of AUKUS, therefore, one will see that submarine deal drowned out in a lot of "noise" as the Americans debate what their next president and his administration will decide, because this Elmer Fudd is not cutting margarine with a razor knife, he is so incompetent or at least many of the American people think he is. #1 The things to remember and consider are: a. The Morrison government announced a 90 day review of options with recommendations to be sifted. This means a news blackout of sorts as far as American vendors are concerned. b. The extant news about AUKUS has been recycled stale information with occasional recent blurbs such as the Taiwan story above. Or the news has been speculations, which I identify as bleating by such personages as Paul Keating in Australia and our idiot secretary of defense, Lloyd Austin, who are subject clueless. c. Americans specifically involved have largely kept their mouths shut. They either want the program to succeed or they want to sell a submarine. Either way, the best way to jinx the deal is to say something wrong. Better, it is, to say nothing and work quietly. If that goes for the Americans, it goes TRIPLE for the UK HMG which have their own troubles trying to keep the AUKUS deal afloat.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jan 7, 2022 0:12:04 GMT
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jan 7, 2022 8:24:33 GMT
It is a rumor.
The upfront rumor "here" is that the Americans will chop over a nuclear boat to be reflagged with an Australian flag. Why? The Americans are ten boats short themselves and would have to crew the boat until Australians were trained to take it over.
The "defense expert" seems like he thinks the rumor is a joke. I think he might be correct.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 7, 2022 8:27:43 GMT
It is a rumor. The upfront rumor "here" is that the Americans will chop over a nuclear boat to be reflagged with an Australian flag. Why? The Americans are ten boats short themselves and would have to crew the boat until Australians were trained to take it over. The "defense expert" seems like he thinks the rumor is a joke. I think he might be correct. Well India does with with Russian boats, so why not Australia.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jan 7, 2022 8:39:37 GMT
It is a rumor. The upfront rumor "here" is that the Americans will chop over a nuclear boat to be reflagged with an Australian flag. Why? The Americans are ten boats short themselves and would have to crew the boat until Australians were trained to take it over. The "defense expert" seems like he thinks the rumor is a joke. I think he might be correct. Well India does with with Russian boats, so why not Australia. There is no technical reason to prevent the attempt. I think it has to be a difference in attitudes, politics and in finances. The Russians were looking for three things when they leased their obsolete Charlie: a. an ally against China. b. a "mark" who could be pumped for cash and access to western tech which the Russians sorely needed. c. a relationship which allowed the Russians to spread political influence and infiltrate a foreign navy with their agents. This is not to suggest that these same ideas have not occurred to the Americans, but the blowback; if the con were discovered (It would be discovered.), is too great. The lease option is not going to happen. A purchase would be different. The question is which Los Angeles boat might it be?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 7, 2022 10:04:51 GMT
Well India does with with Russian boats, so why not Australia. There is no technical reason to prevent the attempt. I think it has to be a difference in attitudes, politics and in finances. The Russians were looking for three things when they leased their obsolete Charlie: a. an ally against China. b. a "mark" who could be pumped for cash and access to western tech which the Russians sorely needed. c. a relationship which allowed the Russians to spread political influence and infiltrate a foreign navy with their agents. This is not to suggest that these same ideas have not occurred to the Americans, but the blowback; if the con were discovered (It would be discovered.), is too great. The lease option is not going to happen. A purchase would be different. The question is which Los Angeles boat might it be? Looking at this list: List of Los Angeles-class submarinesUSS Providence and USS Oklahoma City might be good candidates, also both are Flight II with VLS.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jan 7, 2022 10:27:20 GMT
There is no technical reason to prevent the attempt. I think it has to be a difference in attitudes, politics and in finances. The Russians were looking for three things when they leased their obsolete Charlie: a. an ally against China. b. a "mark" who could be pumped for cash and access to western tech which the Russians sorely needed. c. a relationship which allowed the Russians to spread political influence and infiltrate a foreign navy with their agents. This is not to suggest that these same ideas have not occurred to the Americans, but the blowback; if the con were discovered (It would be discovered.), is too great. The lease option is not going to happen. A purchase would be different. The question is which Los Angeles boat might it be? Looking at this list: List of Los Angeles-class submarinesUSS Providence and USS Oklahoma City might be good candidates, also both are Flight II with VLS. 37 years and 34 years service, respectively. How many dive cycles are left in those hulls?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 7, 2022 10:35:12 GMT
37 years and 34 years service, respectively. How many dive cycles are left in those hulls? Think we also might to add some years before a Australian crew can manned them as they need to be nuclear trained, the subs might be 40 + years old by then.
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ukron
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Post by ukron on Jan 7, 2022 15:18:30 GMT
I just think it's more likely that the US Navy will decide to welcome Australian Navy officers aboard its submarines (I believe the US Navy and Royal Navy did the same during the Cold War). And conversely, American-manned "nuclear submarines" could be loaned to Australia (of course with the establishment of a joint command structure).
Roughly speaking, a fusion of the manpower and the material of the two nations, leaving the advantage to Washington in this region of the world and allowing it to "control" an ally sometimes too impetuous (see the deterioration of the relations between Australia and China ).
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jan 7, 2022 20:43:35 GMT
I just think it's more likely that the US Navy will decide to welcome Australian Navy officers aboard its submarines (I believe the US Navy and Royal Navy did the same during the Cold War). And conversely, American-manned "nuclear submarines" could be loaned to Australia (of course with the establishment of a joint command structure). Roughly speaking, a fusion of the manpower and the material of the two nations, leaving the advantage to Washington in this region of the world and allowing it to "control" an ally sometimes too impetuous ( see the deterioration of the relations between Australia and China ). The "slot manning" is currently ridealong. It would have to become a full-on Perisher or the Prospective Submariner Courses of the Royal Navy and the USN respectively. I do not know if there are enough school boats and slots to create that first teaching crew for the Australians, yet. The RAN candidates could be run through USN shore simulators and schools and assigned to a serving boat. One could even jackstaff an Australian ensign on the boat and slap an RANS designation on it. It just depends on what the 18 month pathway review is like.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jan 8, 2022 22:52:59 GMT
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