simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 16, 2020 7:44:57 GMT
British Military Organisation, National Service and Reserve Errata 1966
- In order to minimise the political cost of National Service, conscripts aren't deployed to active warzones unless it is a declared war or national emergency. - At any one time, there are usually around 1.8 million young men engaged in National Service. - 1,200,000 in the Army; 400,000 in the RAF; 150,000 in the RN and Royal Marines; 40,000 in the Imperial Police; 10,000 in other forces - After 3 months basic training and 3 months advanced training, for their remaining 18 months, Army National Servicemen are then deployed to: A.) Regular Army support units (250,000) B.) Regular Reserve support, garrison and combat units (400,000) B.) Imperial Garrisons (75,000) C.) BAOR Support units (25,000) D.) Cadre Units for TA/Reserve Divisions (100,000)
- Typically, they will spend 6 months abroad and 12 months in Britain of their time in service, depending on their role
Regular Army: 1,136,429 Regular Reserve: 892,378 (National Service + Class A Reservists + Supplementary Reserve + command and support units for 4 Regular Reserve divisions)
Territorial Army: 1,029,745 (First-line TA divisions, brigades, battalions etc; AA Command; Coastal Artillery; Engineers, Transport, Support units) Army Reserve: ~2,500,000 men from 21-25 ( 4 Army Reserve divisions, 12 mobilisation divisions, 12 AR brigades, depot brigades, 24 cavalry reserve regiments, 24 training brigades, reinforcement pool) Territorial Army Reserve: 1,387,254 (Makes up second-line TA divisions, reinforcement pool, guards Home Guard: 2,626,873
Royal Navy: 629,528 Royal Marines: 162,254 Royal Naval Reserve: 524,561 Royal Marine Reserves: 87,238
Royal Air Force: 923,487 Royal Auxiliary Air Force: 427,549 RAF Reserve: 682,334
Merchant Navy: 256,480 Royal Constabulary: 329,525 (129,000 active and 200,000 reserve) Civil Defence Corps: 1,562,346
- Total manpower pool for 18-32 is ~16 million men with a further 8 million in the 32-40 bracket - In a major mobilisation, approximately 1.87 million additional men from Class A (21-25) and Class B (26-32) would be called up for the Army - The RAF would call up 500,000 reserves for ground crew, support units, training organisations, repair and maintenance, logistics and supplementary airfield defence - The Army aims to field an army group for European service (2 million), Home Forces capable of defence of the British Isles and support of active armies (2.3 million), field armies for the Middle East, India and Far East (750,000 men in total), expeditionary forces for Scandinavia and the Mediterranean (300,000), effective Imperial garrisons (200,000) and a strategic reserve force (300,000). The remaining troops would make up the training establishment at home, assorted support and staff units (400,000) - The Home Defence mission would be augmented by the Home Guard to provide for a very substantial capacity against any invaders - This mobilisation only gets to 7.7% of the population, not counting CD or the Home Guard
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 16, 2020 10:31:49 GMT
Ancient Lost Civilisations of Dark Earth1.) Elven and dwarven civilisations arose long before humans and fell/dissipated at some stage 30,000 years ago or more. Very, very little is known of this period for a variety of reasons and it exists as a mythical time of dim folk memory. There is even some thought that these civilisations went elsewhere, somehow, as there is no real history or evidence of their destruction or fall. 2.) Atlantis The fall of Atlantis around 12000 BC coincided with the beginning of a Green Sahara cycle and some magical reverberations on the climate and circumstances of the world. It was a legendary civilisation long thought of as semi-mythical until evidence started to be uncovered in the Age of Discovery and reason started to be applied to the old stories. Between the Fall of Atlantis in 12000BC and the rise of the "First Civilisations" in c.6000 BC in Egypt, Mesopotamia, India, China, Mesoamerica and Peru, there isn't a record of much that is known of at the moment. Lost Continents/Lost LandsMu (located in the Pacific) A former offshoot of Atlantis that fought against it in the Great War that came right before the Fall, where it sunk in the same. Lemuria (around the Maldives and Chagos archipelago) Sunk around the time of the Fall of Atlantis Surambaya (Sundaland stretching up to Angkor Wat) Sunk in the great inundation at the end of the last ice age
Interesting ideas. I've seen the suggestion before that there might have been a wave of civilisations such as Sundaland which would have been swamped when sea levels rose after the end of the last ice age. Most would have been in tropical and sub-tropical areas although I suppose you might have have some inland ones hit by other forms of climate change when the ice retreated.
Sounds like the fall of Atlantis was both quick and violent - which would fit in with your earlier suggestion of Tolkien's world being historical fantasy. That it would have been involved in a war with Mu means some very long ranged weapons as well, although that does raise the question of what happened to other colonies, unless the disaster was literally worldwide. Ugh!
With the elves while in Tolkien most died survivors took what later became the straight path but that could be interstellar in DE or even some form of dimensional travel. Less is known about the dwarves but could have been something similar.
Steve
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 16, 2020 11:16:21 GMT
Steve,
The sheer area flooded at the end of the last glacial maximum provides for plenty of room for development on Dark Earth. Sundaland and the coast of India have some of the most straightforward potential. Most of the earliest civilisations were close enough to rivers and coasts making them vulnerable.
Atlantis fell very quickly. The best modern explanation would be a meteorite impact in North America that triggered off some massive flooding and sea level rises. Something at the same time lead to disastrous earthquakes in Atlantis as part of a global level disaster. The survivors were the mythical god-like figures who lead to a rise of subsequent civilisations: Enki in Sumeria, Bochica in Colombia, Osirith/Osiris in Egypt, Con-Tiki/Viracocha in Peru, Quetzalcoatl/Kukulkan in Mesoamerica and 7 other figures who spread out across the world to survive and rebuild. In this, I’m going for a bit of a reference/feel like Donovan’s song Atlantis, as well as working with the myths of a great primordial connection.
I’ve toyed with the idea of a high tech/magitech war between Mu and Atlantis like the Mysterious Cities of Gold, but not sure if it will fit.
Whatever occurred also damaged the magical fields of the planet, adding another dimension to the disaster.
The idea of the elves and dwarves gradually fading/disappearing to another place or plane is what I’m going for here. The Straight Path involves both space and other dimensions; think of the ending sequence to 2001.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 17, 2020 9:26:45 GMT
Steve, The sheer area flooded at the end of the last glacial maximum provides for plenty of room for development on Dark Earth. Sundaland and the coast of India have some of the most straightforward potential. Most of the earliest civilisations were close enough to rivers and coasts making them vulnerable. Atlantis fell very quickly. The best modern explanation would be a meteorite impact in North America that triggered off some massive flooding and sea level rises. Something at the same time lead to disastrous earthquakes in Atlantis as part of a global level disaster. The survivors were the mythical god-like figures who lead to a rise of subsequent civilisations: Enki in Sumeria, Bochica in Colombia, Osirith/Osiris in Egypt, Con-Tiki/Viracocha in Peru, Quetzalcoatl/Kukulkan in Mesoamerica and 7 other figures who spread out across the world to survive and rebuild. In this, I’m going for a bit of a reference/feel like Donovan’s song Atlantis, as well as working with the myths of a great primordial connection. I’ve toyed with the idea of a high tech/magitech war between Mu and Atlantis like the Mysterious Cities of Gold, but not sure if it will fit. Whatever occurred also damaged the magical fields of the planet, adding another dimension to the disaster. The idea of the elves and dwarves gradually fading/disappearing to another place or plane is what I’m going for here. The Straight Path involves both space and other dimensions; think of the ending sequence to 2001.
I think a sudden natural disaster destroying Atlantis and Mu is probably better than a war as it would fit in with the mutual destruction and without more than a few survivors in colonies that help civilisation start to recover in other locations, some of which later being drowned themselves.
Have you read EE 'Doc' Smith's Lensman series? In the 1st novel there is the destruction of Atlantis in a nuclear exchange but what does the damage is a missile that is shot down by the defences IIRC but lands and detonates in the sea along a fault line that causes the rapid sinking of the continent. Might be that the meteorite has an effect link that, causing a land collapse as well as rising sea level. [Possibly even some planetary defence system - if you want them that advanced - intercepts a large meteorite but splits it into multiple bodies so that are a number of hits around the world? Just an idea if it might fit in with the background you want].
Not sure about damaging the magnetic field as that could be difficult but it might possibly have trigger a period of flux or ever one of the flips that seems to occur occasionally. That could cause further confusion and possibly also again if your got an advanced technology seriously damage any technology that survives the initial strike, say by some sort of EMP or the like.
Steve
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 17, 2020 10:30:40 GMT
Steve,
It is definitely easier to engineer a natural event or series of events than a huge war, although the latter can work into the former.
I haven’t read Lensman, but the idea of something hitting a fault line is quite logical. Something akin to the Cumbre Vieja debunked worst case scenario could be interesting.
I’m not sure on having a civilisation so advanced as to be vulnerable to EMP, but whatever advanced magical/supernatural capacity they had will get knocked back to the Stone Ages, leaving tantalising remnants around the world. Some sites are then built up by subsequent early civilisations, such as Giza; the Sphinx is older here.
Simon
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 17, 2020 11:49:47 GMT
Falklands Garrison 1966:
2nd Royal Scots Infantry Battalion 2 Field Artillery Batteries (16 x 25pdr) Royal Engineer Squadron Armoured Troop (8 Super Centurions) Air Defense Battery (8 PT.428) 695 Coast Regiment: 4 x 12”, 8 x 6”, 12 x 3.75” RFC Helicopter Flight (6 Westland Wessex)
1 RAF fighter squadron (detached from Fighter Command)
Naval Party 8902 (4 hovercraft) RNAS Flight (6 Fairey Rotodyne) Royal Marine Garrison Company
Falklands Islands Regiment (1 battalion)
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Post by lordroel on Sept 17, 2020 12:00:27 GMT
Falklands Garrison 1966: 2nd Royal Scots Infantry Battalion 2 Field Artillery Batteries (16 x 25pdr) Royal Engineer Squadron Armoured Troop (8 Super Centurions) Air Defense Battery (8 PT.428) 695 Coast Regiment: 4 x 12”, 8 x 6”, 12 x 3.75” RFC Helicopter Flight (6 Westland Wessex) 1 RAF fighter squadron (detached from Fighter Command) Naval Party 8902 (4 hovercraft) RNAS Flight (6 Fairey Rotodyne) Royal Marine Garrison Company Falklands Islands Regiment (1 battalion) Argentina still will be able to defeat this garrison if they wanted to, but still will loose the war in the end.
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 17, 2020 12:52:11 GMT
That isn't the only thing in the area, just the immediate forces on the Falkland Islands, as has been said in Never Had it So Good Part 20:
"Why on earth did they invade the Falklands of all places?"
"They regarded it as their rightful territory, based on the earlier Spanish claim. There had always been a nationalist undercurrent that demanded Argentine control of Las Malvinas, as they call the islands, but it became stronger as the Empire began to fade away during decolonisation. When the military junta finally invaded in '82, it was to distract from the terrible state of their economy."
"Righto. Very different from here then. The main part of Argie irredentism is directed towards Prydain, based on the similar grounds of the old Spanish claim. The Falklands are just too far away from their heartland around the River Plate for more than a handful of firebrands to think that they can claim them."
"How long has Prydain been around?"
"As an independent Dominion, 1905 or thereabouts. As a colony? I think our first settlements down in Patagonia stretch back to the 1820s, when they first found gold down there. Of course, we had been interested in control of Cape Horn and the Straits of Magellan for over a hundred years before then, along with France and Spain, naturally."
"I see. What are the chances of Buenos Aires trying something against Prydain?"
"Extremely small, Sam, for quite a few reasons, both political and military. On a purely practical level, the Argies have a decent military, no mistake about that, but it isn't even the strongest one in South America; that is Brazil. In terms of modern ships, they've got a pair of rebuilt wartime fleet carriers they bought from us, two decent second-rate battleships, three brand-new cruisers and eight good destroyers. Their air force has just over 700 frontline jets, though only a few have the range to cover the 1200 miles or so to the Falklands. The biggest factor, though, is that they're a sensible, close ally of ours, although the new nationalist government is making noises about Uruguay and playing up the border tensions in the south for domestic consumption. Even if they did do something silly beyond what the Prydainians could handle, the Imperial South Atlantic Command would sort it out quite quickly."
"What is that? Some sort of standing naval force?"
"That is what they were initially, back in 1920 when they were established after the Jellicoe Report. Since the end of the Second World War, they have grown into much more substantial integrated commands. There is one in the South Atlantic, one in the North Atlantic, one in the North Pacific and one down in Australasia. At nominal full strength, they each have a carrier task force, a battle squadron, several cruiser and destroyer squadrons, a brigade sized amphibious landing force, a maritime patrol group, a tactical air force, a bomber wing and a reinforced division of ground troops. The cornerstones of British Empire security, as Stanley Barton is want to say."
That translates, without British reinforcements, to:
Naval Task Force: 1 BB, 1 CV, 2 CLG, 6 DD, 8 FF (RSAN), 2 CL, 4 DD (RPN), 2 CL, 4 FF (RN) Amphibious Landing Force: 1st Royal South African Marine Brigade Tactical Air Force: (72 Prydain, 192 South Africa, 96 Rhodesia) Bomber Wing: 72 RSAF bombers (48 Vulcans, 24 Valiants) Maritime Patrol Group: 2 South African patrol squadrons, 1 Prydain patrol squadron, 1 British patrol squadron Reinforced Division: 2nd South African Brigade, 4th Prydain Brigade, 9th Rhodesian Brigade
So, yes, theoretically they could, should there not be an RN submarine anywhere nearby. However, they wouldn't and are under different management than @.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 17, 2020 14:38:22 GMT
Falklands Garrison 1966: 2nd Royal Scots Infantry Battalion 2 Field Artillery Batteries (16 x 25pdr) Royal Engineer Squadron Armoured Troop (8 Super Centurions) Air Defense Battery (8 PT.428) 695 Coast Regiment: 4 x 12”, 8 x 6”, 12 x 3.75” RFC Helicopter Flight (6 Westland Wessex) 1 RAF fighter squadron (detached from Fighter Command) Naval Party 8902 (4 hovercraft) RNAS Flight (6 Fairey Rotodyne) Royal Marine Garrison Company Falklands Islands Regiment (1 battalion) Argentina still will be able to defeat this garrison if they wanted to, but still will loose the war in the end.
That would be the issue. Despite being much larger than the OTL 1982 garrison its still basically a trip-wire/deterrent force as attacking that means war with the UK. Which isn't the declining 2nd-3rd rate power of OTL. Plus as Simon says there's an even larger British colony/dominion at Prydain which would need to be attack in any war else it would provide an idea base for operations against an hostile Argentina.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 17, 2020 15:17:52 GMT
Those are indeed two of the three major issues at play, with the third and greatest being that Argentina is still very, very close to Britain and on excellent terms. Things have changed since the 1930s where in @ Vice-President Roca said It can be said that Argentina is an integral economic part of the British Empire/By its economic importance, Argentina resembles just a large British dominion. but not fundamentally.
The British like the Argentines and generally, the Argentines like the British. There are idiots on both sides, but thus far, the apple cart hasn't been dramatically upturned.
Even as a thought exercise, just for the navies, it doesn't work out well: Aircraft Carriers: 15 RN, 2 Argentina Battleships: 27 RN, 2 Argentina Cruisers: 52 RN, 3 Argentina Destroyers: 136 RN, 8 Argentina Nuclear Attack Submarines: 40 RN, 0 Argentina British amphibious lift: 1.5 divisions out of a total of 4 Royal Marine Divisions
The Argies can do mathematics.
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 17, 2020 19:23:32 GMT
Barton Naval Programme:
Upon election in late 1964, the Labour Government of Stanley Barton ordered a review of naval requirements and production, with an aim of building up the fleet to strengthen British influence and capacity and also stimulate shipbuilding.
RN Fleet as of 1/1/1966
5 BBGN (Queen Elizabeth, Duke of Edinburgh, Victoria, Britannia, St George) 19 BBG 6 CVN (Ark Royal, Eagle, Invincible, Hermes, Victorious, Formidable) 9 CVA 2 CVSL 4 CGN (London, Kent, Suffolk, Norfolk) 26 CG 24 CAG 104 DDG 32 DD 36 FFG 102 FF (48 Whitby, 54 River) 94 FFL
16 SSBN 38 SSN 52 SSK
42 PC 72 PG 125 FAC
Under Construction in 1965: 4 CVSL, 2 CGN, 4 SSBN, 3 SSN, 8 DDG, 6 FF
1966: 2 CGN, 4 SSN, 6 CG, 8 DDG, 8 FFG, 6 FF 1967: 1CVN, 1 BBGN, 2 CGN, 5 SSN, 3 CVSL, 2 CGH, 4 DLG, 8 DDG, 8 FFG, 6 FF 1968: 1 CVN, 2 BBGN, 2 CGN, 4 SSN, 3 CVSL, 2 CGH, 4 DLG, 8 DDG, 8 FFG
- Whilst there have been discussions on reclassifying the Hunt class corvettes as frigates, this has been firmly slapped down, as the Admiralty has no desire to see construction slashed due to the RN fielding “more than enough frigates!” - The Reserve Fleet at this point consists 6 BBG, 14 CL, 48 DD and 70 FF - General RN requirements are still based on 460 escorts at a minimum.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 18, 2020 4:39:40 GMT
A bit of carry over from the timeline that deserves its own entry here to keep track of it:
British Aircraft Companies:
The aircraft industry is split up into 5 large conglomerates, with individual marques still being used for products.
Hawker-Siddeley: Hawker-Siddeley, HS Canada, HS Australia, Avro, Avro Canada, Blackburn, Sopwith Vickers: Vickers, Canadian Vickers, Australian Vickers, Vickers India, Vickers South Africa, Supermarine, Westland de Havilland: de Havilland, de Havilland Canada, de Havilland Australia, Handley-Page, Shorts, Bombardier, Percival, Martinsyde Armstrong-Whitworth: AW, AW Canada, Gloster, Fairey, Airspeed, Saunders-Roe Bristol: Bristol, Martin-Baker, Auster, Folland, Miles, Boulton-Paul, Beagle, Scottish Aviation, Hunting
As well as aircraft, each of the Big 5 are also involved in guided weapons, rocketry, engines, spacecraft, heavy engineering and general aerospace. Vickers and Armstrong-Whitworth are each part of much bigger armaments concerns that are diversified across a lot more industries.
Vickers and Armstrong Whitworth are the big players, with Hawker-Siddeley and Cammell Laird close behind them, partly by virtue of the latter's stake in the very large Coventry Ordnance Works. Beardmores, owned by Rolls Royce, are very much a lesser player, but have substantial civil and commercial orders. Rolls Royce is a major player and builds weapon systems, radars, sensors, rockets, missiles and space equipment.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 18, 2020 11:19:02 GMT
A bit of carry over from the timeline that deserves its own entry here to keep track of it: British Aircraft Companies: The aircraft industry is split up into 5 large conglomerates, with individual marques still being used for products. Hawker-Siddeley: Hawker-Siddeley, HS Canada, HS Australia, Avro, Avro Canada, Saunders-Roe, Blackburn, Sopwith Vickers: Vickers, Canadian Vickers, Australian Vickers, Vickers India, Vickers South Africa, Supermarine, Westland de Havilland: de Havilland, de Havilland Canada, de Havilland Australia, Handley-Page, Shorts, Bombardier, Percival, Martinsyde Armstrong-Whitworth: AW, AW Canada, Gloster, Fairey, Airspeed Bristol: Bristol, Martin-Baker, Auster, Folland, Miles, Boulton-Paul, Beagle, Scottish Aviation, Hunting As well as aircraft, each of the Big 5 are also involved in guided weapons, rocketry, engines, spacecraft, heavy engineering and general aerospace. Vickers and Armstrong-Whitworth are each part of much bigger armaments concerns that are diversified across a lot more industries. Vickers and Armstrong Whitworth are the big players, with Hawker-Siddeley and Cammell Laird close behind them, partly by virtue of the latter's stake in the very large Coventry Ordnance Works. Beardmores, owned by Rolls Royce, are very much a lesser player, but have substantial civil and commercial orders. Rolls Royce is a major player and builds weapon systems, radars, sensors, rockets, missiles and space equipment.
That's a good healthy combination which gives a good basis for competition between them. Much better than the present situation where you have a large bloated monopoly in BAe for virtually all the defence capacity. Did you mean Cammell Laird and Beardmores as they were historically largely shipbuilder? Wondering if you accidentally crossed lists here and meant to say more on de Havilland and Bristol?
Steve
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 18, 2020 12:10:57 GMT
Steve
The references to Cammell Laird and Beardmores were to the broader armaments players:
Vickers Armstrong-Whitworth Cammell-Laird Rolls Royce/Beardmores English Electric/BSA
As can be seen, there is crossover into aviation from Vickers and Armstrong-Whitworth. As of 1966, there is some talk of further consolidation in the form of a merger between Hawker-Siddeley and Cammell-Laird and English Electric merging with de Havilland, with Bristol already in talks with Rolls-Royce. This would reduce the number of independent engine manufacturers to Rolls-Royce, de Havilland, Metrovick and Armstrong-Siddeley, each of which have their own niche.
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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 29, 2020 20:56:09 GMT
Reading between the lines of the in universe “Lessons Learned” executive summary of Warhammer, a couple of significant trends or patterns start to emerge: - The BAOR will move towards a structure of heavy divisions of MBTs and AIFVs/MACVs + de facto Armoured Cavalry Regiments/Brigades in the frontline role; supporting mechanised infantry in FV-432 APCs attached at brigade, division and corps level + independent armoured battle groups as corps assets similar to an OMG; and some form of motorised/light infantry forces for rear area security, LOC, major urban regions and general reinforcements + light armour/wheeled vehicles for escort, patrol and flank security. - The latter will entail getting involved with the developments of wheeled armoured vehicles and APCs in Australia, Canada and South Africa. These represent different vehicles than the current British range:
25t FV430 series FV431 Armoured Load Carrier FV432 Saxon APC (25mm gun turret) FV433 Abbot 25pdr/125mm SPG FV434 "Carrier, Maintenance, Full Tracked" - REME Maintenance carrier and caran FV435 Wavell communications vehicle/FV436 C3I fitted with Cymbeline radar FV437 Pathfinder vehicle - based on an FV432 with integral buoyancy and other waterjets FV438 Swingfire Guided Missile Launcher FV439 Signals vehicle - Many variants
16t FV200 series FV201 FV201 Scimitar light reconnaissance armoured vehicle (42mm main gun) FV202 Spartan armoured personnel carrier, FV203 Samaritan ambulance, FV204 Sultan armoured command vehicle FV205 Samson armoured recovery vehicle.
12t FV300 series
FV301 Sabre armoured car 42mm FV302 Stag armoured personnel carrier FV303 Seneschal armoured cargo carrier FV304 Sceptre armoured communications vehicle FV 305 Sentinel heavy armoured car 90mm/25pdr
The new wheeled AFV/APC would be more in the 20-24t range. It isn’t replacing any armoured vehicle, wheeled or tracked, but rather getting infantry out of lorries and into faster, better protected vehicles.
- The Allied forces have a fair bit of teething problems yet to overcome.
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