|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Jan 14, 2022 16:38:58 GMT
Tank Forces of the World 1968
1.) USSR: 159,451
(73,895 active {16,377 T-64, 39,456 T-62, 2824 T-10, 3656 T-68, 11,582 PT-85} + 76,556 reserve {51,960 T-54/T-55, 24,596 T-34-100, 5932 IS-3, 4528 T-10 })
2.) USA: 49,495
(25,688 active {18,420 US Army + 960 USMC M64 + 800 USMC M-60, 4580 M-96 Custers, 862 M-92, 56 M-105} + 23,807 reserves {2987 M-96 Custers, 1524 M-60 USMCR, 10,642 M-60 USANG, 5174 M60 + 3480 M-48 USAR})
3.) China: 38,427
(10,124 Yu-Lung LT, 24,078 Ch'ing Lung MT, 3589 Huang Lung HT, 760 Hong Lung SHT)
4.) Britain: 26,216
(14,192 active {9860 Chieftains, 640 Valiants, 1284 Royal Marine Valiants, 1892 Royalists, 1236 Super Conquerors} + 12,024 reserve {8649 TA Chieftains, 756 RMR Super Centurions, 1644 Royalist TA, 975 Super Conquerors})
5.) Germany: 20,892
(13,393 active {4977 Leopard, 4578 Panther II, 1525 Tiger III, 1843 Gepard} + 7499 reserve {6532 Panther II, 967 Gepard})
6.) France: 20,626
(13,362 active {8325 AMX-30, 2480 AMX-13, 1062 AMX-20 LBT, 370 AMX ELC, 1124 AMX-50} + 7264 reserve {5279 AMX-25 + 1985 AMX-13}
7.) India: 12,617
(8645 active {7120 Centurions, 1525 Royalists} + 3972 reserve {5972 Centurions}
8.) Austria-Hungary: 10,930
(8737 active {2487 Leopard, 5510 Panzer 60, 760 Royalists} + 2193 reserve {2193 Panzer 56/Centurion})
9.) Italy: 10,861
(7766 active {6324 Leone, 1442 Spada LT} + 3095 reserve {2495 M-48, 600 M-47})
10.) Canada: 9655
(6395 active {5325 Chieftains, 1070 Royalists, 625 Royal Canadian Marine Super Centurions} + 3260 reserve {3260 Centurions}
11.) Sweden: Sweden: 8034
6394 active {4825 Strv. 125, 769 Strv. 120, 800 Strv. 100} + 1640 reserves {1640 Strv. 100})
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,007 
Likes: 49,410
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 14, 2022 16:42:49 GMT
Tank Forces of the World 1968 1.) USSR: 159,451 (73,895 active {16,377 T-64, 39,456 T-62, 2824 T-10, 3656 T-68, 11,582 PT-85} + 76,556 reserve {51,960 T-54/T-55, 24,596 T-34-100, 5932 IS-3, 4528 T-10 }) 2.) USA: 49,495 (25,688 active {18,420 US Army + 960 USMC M64 + 800 USMC M-60, 4580 M-96 Custers, 862 M-92, 56 M-105} + 23,807 reserves {2987 M-96 Custers, 1524 M-60 USMCR, 10,642 M-60 USANG, 5174 M60 + 3480 M-48 USAR}) 3.) China: 38,427 (10,124 Yu-Lung LT, 24,078 Ch'ing Lung MT, 3589 Huang Lung HT, 760 Hong Lung SHT) 4.) Britain: 26,216 (14,192 active {9860 Chieftains, 640 Valiants, 1284 Royal Marine Valiants, 1892 Royalists, 1236 Super Conquerors} + 12,024 reserve {8649 TA Chieftains, 756 RMR Super Centurions, 1644 Royalist TA, 975 Super Conquerors}) 5.) Germany: 20,892 (13,393 active {4977 Leopard, 4578 Panther II, 1525 Tiger III, 1843 Gepard} + 7499 reserve {6532 Panther II, 967 Gepard}) 6.) France: 20,626 (13,362 active {8325 AMX-30, 2480 AMX-13, 1062 AMX-20 LBT, 370 AMX ELC, 1124 AMX-50} + 7264 reserve {5279 AMX-25 + 1985 AMX-13} 7.) India: 12,617 (8645 active {7120 Centurions, 1525 Royalists} + 3972 reserve {5972 Centurions} 8.) Austria-Hungary: 10,930 (8737 active {2487 Leopard, 5510 Panzer 60, 760 Royalists} + 2193 reserve {2193 Panzer 56/Centurion}) 9.) Italy: 10,861 (7766 active {6324 Leone, 1442 Spada LT} + 3095 reserve {2495 M-48, 600 M-47}) 10.) Canada: 9655 (6395 active {5325 Chieftains, 1070 Royalists, 625 Royal Canadian Marine Super Centurions} + 3260 reserve {3260 Centurions} 11.) Sweden: Sweden: 8034 6394 active {4825 Strv. 125, 769 Strv. 120, 800 Strv. 100} + 1640 reserves {1640 Strv. 100}) So will China one day be number 1 on the list. |
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Jan 14, 2022 16:51:58 GMT
I’m curious: What exactly would lead someone to that conclusion? I wrote it, so I know what I think, but of all that could be drawn from this data, that would not be one I’d come up with.
They have a large force, but a significant part of it is a fairly stock standard early 1950s light tank. They have under a quarter of the Soviet force and, here’s the kicker, are going to have to start over and replace much of the current fleet with their Jilong MBT now under development.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,007
Likes: 49,410
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 14, 2022 16:53:23 GMT
I’m curious: What exactly would lead someone to that conclusion? I wrote it, so I know what I think, but of all that could be drawn from this data, that would not be one I’d come up with. They have a large force, but a significant part of it is a fairly stock standard early 1950s light tank. They have under a quarter of the Soviet force and, here’s the kicker, are going to have to start over and replace much of the current fleet with their Jilong MBT now under development. Well China has a large population then the Soviet Union, so i assume they can field more tanks, even if they are not of the same capability of what the Soviet field. |
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Jan 14, 2022 17:14:13 GMT
Ok. Tank forces are not proportional to population in any universe. They may have a relationship to the size of military forces, but here is where your logic falls down:
- The Soviets have a larger army than Imperial China; and in that army, they have twice as many tank divisions alone, in addition to almost three times as many motor rifle divisions.
- Soviet tank production is more than double that of China
- The USSR has a great deal more heavily industry and military industrial capacity than China
- How does China make up the gap in modern tanks that stands at ~126,000 to 38,000 given those factors?
China has over 150 leg infantry divisions, whereas the Soviets are reintroducing light infantry divisions and currently have 12
|
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Jan 14, 2022 17:39:50 GMT
Some of the points that stick out for me:
- Soviet production is shifting into more powerful types, creating some real headaches. There are indications that what will replace the T-64 as a frontline MBT will be a worry, driving the M70, Crusader and Leopard.
- US replacement of the M-48 frees up a lot for cheap exports to Korea, South Vietnam, Thailand, Taiwan and the Philippines, with the Germans also having a lot of Panther IIs that will be sold as widely as @ Leopards.
- I can see Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Turkey buying up on German surplus tanks.
- The USA is going to try and take a lot of South America as a market. Britain has lost Sweden as a tank customer, but still has Norway and Denmark, the Benelux and the Commonwealth (+ newly self governing countries in Africa) but will fight to keep South America
- France wants to tie up North Africa and West Africa, as well as the Congo, with AMX-25s and lighter tanks. The AMX-20 is a 24t light tank with a 105mm gun designed to replace the AMX-13 in French service and beyond.
- There are therefore quite a few states closing in on the Middle East with intent to sell.
- The Big 4 are going to end up hanging on to thousands of T-55s, M-48s, Centurions and Ch'ing Lungs deep into the 1970s, just in case.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,007
Likes: 49,410
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 14, 2022 17:41:31 GMT
China has over 150 leg infantry divisions, whereas the Soviets are reintroducing light infantry divisions and currently have 12 You mean mass infantry charging at a position and hope to overrun it mentality. |
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Jan 14, 2022 18:18:24 GMT
No, that died in Korea.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,007
Likes: 49,410
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 14, 2022 18:25:32 GMT
Even for a country like China wich seems to have more than 150 foot infantry division’s. |
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Jan 14, 2022 18:39:01 GMT
Infantry is not limited to mass human wave attacks. The US operated infantry in Korea and Vietnam, two radically different wars, without needing those tactics. The Chinese will move towards infantry transported in wheeled vehicles/lorries, but that takes time and money; their target TOE is closer to the US in WW2 than the Res Army. They also use infantry for border defence, coastal defence, garrisons and internal security.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,843
Likes: 13,229
|
Post by stevep on Jan 15, 2022 14:56:50 GMT
I think Lordroel might be influenced by OTL and the fact that by 2022 China is a huge technological and industrial powers so its something we tend to expect to happen in DE as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Jan 16, 2022 3:36:51 GMT
It wasn’t that in 1968, regardless of the Cultural Revolution. It’s contemporary industrial rise was driven by post Cold War macroeconomic trends and globalisation; expecting that particular set of circumstances to occur in Dark Earth is a bit simplistic. It is also wrong, given the @ rankings that have Russia having over double the number of China (22000 vs 9000).
|
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Jan 19, 2022 16:01:12 GMT
British Rearmament 1968
As mentioned, the pace of armament construction is definitely gathering by 1968, but on the flipside, it needs to - replacing older planes and vehicles is very difficult to do whilst major export programmes are underway. This will shift in 1969 most artillery, missile and mortar construction going to export and a lot of aircraft production shifting to overseas markets; 1968 Chieftain production was largely for the Benelux contract.
Tanks: 2995
(313 Royalists, 1908 Chieftains, 256 Super Conquerors, 518 Vickers Valiant MBT)
IFVs: 3084
(1964 FV-525 Warriors, 1120 FV-432 Saxons)
APCs: 4288
(936 Sentinel LAV, 1285 Centaur IMV, 792 MAV, 1275 Saracen AMC)
Artillery: 2456
(96 3.75" Vickers Whirlwind SPAAGs, 160 42mm Marksman SPAAGs, 320 25mm Sharpshooter SPAAGs
480 42mm AA
550 L24 125mm Light Guns (450 Britain, 300 Benelux)
275 L121 6" Gun-Howitzers (100 Britain, 100 Israel, 75 Benelux)
250 FV236 Archbishops, 125 FV254 Lionhearts, 50 FV287 Excalibur
150 Catapult MRLS)
Missiles: 248
(20 Black Arrow MRBM, 20 Blue Streak ICBM; 16 White Knight, 32 Gold Crown, 56 Black Prince, 104 Blue Water)
SAMs: 2400
(390 Blue Envoy (240 export), 250 Bloodhound (export); 760 PT.428 Rapier SAMs, 1000 EG.324 Sabre SAMs)
MANPADs: 2200
2200 Vickers Skyflash
ATGMs: 9400
2400 Hawker-Siddeley Javelins, 3000 Fairey Swingfires, 4,000 Shorts Green Apples
Vehicles: 32,500
(6,000 Bedford MK 5t lorry, 4,000 Leyland Ranger 5t 6x6 lorry, 1200 Alvis Stalwart 10t 8x8 lorry, 100 Scammell Commander, 15,000 Land Rovers, 1200 Humber Pigs, 5000 Austin Champions)
Mortars: 2318
(664 L13 2.5", 437 L16 3.5", 280 L18 3.75" Automatic, 216 L12 4.5", 152 L35 6.5", 78 L52 10")
Small Arms
(294,987 L1A2 battle rifles, 185,432 L2A4 assault rifles, 96,264 L10 pistols, 87,382 L10A1 submachine guns, 48,524 L4 LMGs, 25,493 L6 GPMGs, 12,549 L12 HMGs, 2478 Maxim Guns)
Aircraft: 2987
Vickers (562)
84 Vickers Thunderbolts
25 Supermarine Excaliburs
36 Supermarine Victorys
80 Supermarine Eagle TSR-2s (24 Sweden, 24 Australia, 32 India)
76 Norman Islander
100 Westland Tigers
85 Westland Sea King
72 Westland Westminsters
de Havilland (464)
175 de Havilland Tornadoes (125 Britain, 55 Benelux)
50 de Havilland Vanguards
43 de Havilland DH.125 Jet Dragons
30 Shorts Valentine (Chile)
36 Handley-Page Hawthorn (Argentina)
74 Percival Lynx
56 Percival Prefect
Armstrong-Whitworth (685)
36 Armstrong-Whitworth Warspite
68 Armstrong-Whitworth AW.249 AEW
108 Gloster Lions
32 Gloster P.462 Reaper
165 Fairey Rotodynes
80 Fairey Delta II
48 Fairey Swordfish ASW
72 Fairey Rainbow supersonic trainers
24 Saunders Roe SR.A/6 Calypso
52 Saunders Roe SR.187 (Germany)
Hawker Siddeley (695)
200 Hawker-Siddeley Phantoms
50 Hawker-Siddeley Merlins
138 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers
24 Hawker Siddeley HS.681 Skyblazers
140 Blackburn Buccaneers (50 UK, 50 India, 40 Netherlands)
95 Avro Vulcans
30 Avro 780 Andover
18 Avro Vindicators
Bristol (581)
59 Bristol Buckinghams
160 Bristol Bulldogs
138 Bristol Strikemaster
240 English Electric Lightnings (100 RAF, 50 Israel, 50 India, 40 Benelux)
124 Folland-Miles Wasps
32 Boulton Paul Darings
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,007
Likes: 49,410
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2022 16:05:59 GMT
British RearmamentAs mentioned, the pace of armament construction is definitely gathering by 1968, but on the flipside, it needs to - replacing older planes and vehicles is very difficult to do whilst major export programmes are underway. This will shift in 1969 most artillery, missile and mortar construction going to export and a lot of aircraft production shifting to overseas markets; 1968 Chieftain production was largely for the Benelux contract. Tanks: 2995 (313 Royalists, 1908 Chieftains, 256 Super Conquerors, 518 Vickers Valiant MBT) APCs: 6697 (1720 FV-432 Saxon, 1964 FV-525 Warrior, 936 Sentinel LAV, 1785 Centaur IMV, 792 MAV, 1275 Saladin AMC) Artillery: 2456 (96 3.75" Vickers Whirlwind SPAAGs, 160 42mm Marksman SPAAGs, 320 25mm Sharpshooter SPAAGs 480 42mm AA 550 L24 125mm Light Guns (450 Britain, 300 Benelux) 275 L121 6" Gun-Howitzers (100 Britain, 100 Israel, 75 Benelux) 250 FV236 Archbishops, 125 FV254 Lionhearts, 50 FV287 Excalibur 150 Catapult MRLS) Missiles: 248 (20 Black Arrow MRBM, 20 Blue Streak ICBM; 16 White Knight, 32 Gold Crown, 56 Black Prince, 104 Blue Water) SAMs: 2900 (390 Blue Envoy (240 export), 250 Bloodhound (export); 760 PT.428 Rapier SAMs, 1500 EG.324 Sabre SAMs) MANPADs: 4200 4200 Vickers Skyflash ATGMs: 14400 2400 Hawker-Siddeley Javelins, 4000 Fairey Swingfires, 8,000 Shorts Green Apples Vehicles: 32,500 (6,000 Bedford MK 5t lorry, 4,000 Leyland Ranger 5t 6x6 lorry, 1200 Alvis Stalwart 10t 8x8 lorry, 100 Scammell Commander, 15,000 Land Rovers, 1200 Humber Pigs, 5000 Austin Champions) Mortars: 2318 (664 L13 2.5", 437 L16 3.5", 280 L18 3.75" Automatic, 216 L12 4.5", 152 L35 6.5", 78 L52 10") Small Arms (294,987 L1A2 battle rifles, 185,432 L2A4 assault rifles, 96,264 L10 pistols, 87,382 L10A1 submachine guns, 48,524 L4 LMGs, 25,493 L6 GPMGs, 12,549 L12 HMGs, 2478 Maxim Guns) Aircraft: 2987 Vickers (562) 84 Vickers Thunderbolts 25 Supermarine Excaliburs 36 Supermarine Victorys 80 Supermarine Eagle TSR-2s (24 Sweden, 24 Australia, 32 India) 76 Norman Islander 100 Westland Tigers 85 Westland Sea King 72 Westland Westminsters de Havilland (464) 175 de Havilland Tornadoes (125 Britain, 55 Benelux) 50 de Havilland Vanguards 43 de Havilland DH.125 Jet Dragons 30 Shorts Valentine (Chile) 36 Handley-Page Hawthorn (Argentina) 74 Percival Lynx 56 Percival Prefect Armstrong-Whitworth (685) 36 Armstrong-Whitworth Warspite 68 Armstrong-Whitworth AW.249 AEW 108 Gloster Lions 32 Gloster P.462 Reaper 165 Fairey Rotodynes 80 Fairey Delta II 48 Fairey Swordfish ASW 72 Fairey Rainbow supersonic trainers 24 Saunders Roe SR.A/6 Calypso 52 Saunders Roe SR.187 (Germany) Hawker Siddeley (695) 200 Hawker-Siddeley Phantoms 50 Hawker-Siddeley Merlins 138 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers 24 Hawker Siddeley HS.681 Skyblazers 140 Blackburn Buccaneers (50 UK, 50 India, 40 Netherlands) 95 Avro Vulcans 30 Avro 780 Andover 18 Avro Vindicators Bristol (581) 59 Bristol Buckinghams 160 Bristol Bulldogs 138 Bristol Strikemaster 240 English Electric Lightnings (100 RAF, 50 Israel, 50 India, 40 Benelux) 124 Folland-Miles Wasps 32 Boulton Paul Darings So this is all the new hardware the British are getting, ore have i it wrong. |
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Jan 19, 2022 16:21:13 GMT
The aircraft for export are indicated by the country name in brackets, as are the missiles and artillery. The AFVs/APCs, small arms, ATGMs and vehicles are all for British use, but the large part of the tanks are for Belgium and the Netherlands, as stated. For the aircraft, some are going towards spares or replacements for planes damaged over Vietnam.
Some of it is new, whilst others, like the lorries and Land Rovers, go back to wartime designs.
There are some new aircraft I slipped in there, though…
|
|
