ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Feb 7, 2022 19:30:46 GMT
Thanks guys! I'll say this, there are PLENTY of examples of surface ships firing on friendly submarines under the belief that the only good submarine is a dead one. And those are from ships and boats in the same navy! With multiple foreign Navies involved, the problem gets much more acute. There's a bunch of issues to deal with though in the area and Indonesia is only one of them. Just some general background information, from what I can tell, there are 2 American Admirals in the combined task force, Rear Admiral Upper Half William Schoech, Commander Carrier Division Three (of which both Bon Homme Richard and Ticonderoga are a part of), and Rear Admiral Upper Half Edward Colestock, Commander Carrier Division Seventeen. As far as I can tell, Ticonderoga did not have a flag officer onboard (though it's possible the Deputy Commander of CARDIV 3 was embarked). From what I can tell, the two men are very close in date of rank, so I flipped a coin and said Schoech was promoted first. I assume the Royal Netherlands Navy has informed the United States Navy where and how HNLMS Zeeleeuw will operate so as to prevent unfortunately friendly fire mishaps. Not specifically, no. They told the Naval Attache in Amsterdam that they were deploying multiple naval forces, including a submarine, but no direct information. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,971 
Likes: 49,373
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 7, 2022 19:33:01 GMT
I assume the Royal Netherlands Navy has informed the United States Navy where and how HNLMS Zeeleeuw will operate so as to prevent unfortunately friendly fire mishaps. Not specifically, no. They told the Naval Attache in Amsterdam that they were deploying multiple naval forces, including a submarine, but no direct information. Well i assume the operation area of HNLMS Zeeleeuw will be of the coast of Netherlands New Guinea where it will patrol to find any Indonesian invasion fleet. |
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Feb 7, 2022 19:45:06 GMT
Not specifically, no. They told the Naval Attache in Amsterdam that they were deploying multiple naval forces, including a submarine, but no direct information. Well i assume the operation area of HNLMS Zeeleeuw will be of the coast of Netherlands New Guinea where it will patrol to find any Indonesian invasion fleet. That's a safe assumption, yes. Around New Guinea or other ports around Indonesia |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,971
Likes: 49,373
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 7, 2022 19:47:29 GMT
Well i assume the operation area of HNLMS Zeeleeuw will be of the coast of Netherlands New Guinea where it will patrol to find any Indonesian invasion fleet. That's a safe assumption, yes. Around New Guinea or other ports around Indonesia Places where at the moment neither the United States Navy ore the Royal Navy will venture. |
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Feb 7, 2022 21:04:27 GMT
That's a safe assumption, yes. Around New Guinea or other ports around Indonesia Places where at the moment neither the United States Navy ore the Royal Navy will venture. I wouldn't say places they "won't" go. The US just sent Yorktown into the Banda Sea a few days ago. More like they aren't there at the moment, but will go in if they have to. But yes, at the moment, the operational areas don't overlap |
|
|
|
Post by La Rouge Beret on Feb 8, 2022 9:52:05 GMT
A Balao class submarine with a Dutch crew is still a very potent weapon in the 1960s, while all eyes might be on their carrier the submarine might cause more damage to the Indonesian military.
|
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Feb 8, 2022 12:16:25 GMT
A Balao class submarine with a Dutch crew is still a very potent weapon in the 1960s, while all eyes might be on their carrier the submarine might cause more damage to the Indonesian military. Pretty much. And if you notice the dates, Zeeleeuw will be in the area the day before the planned invasion... |
|
oscssw
Senior chief petty officer
Posts: 967
Likes: 1,575
|
Post by oscssw on Feb 8, 2022 14:15:10 GMT
A Balao class submarine with a Dutch crew is still a very potent weapon in the 1960s, while all eyes might be on their carrier the submarine might cause more damage to the Indonesian military. Pretty much. And if you notice the dates, Zeeleeuw will be in the area the day before the planned invasion...  |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,971
Likes: 49,373
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 8, 2022 15:02:56 GMT
Pretty much. And if you notice the dates, Zeeleeuw will be in the area the day before the planned invasion... For Zeeleeuw yes, if she is lucky to score some hits, i wonder how good the Indonesian ASW is. |
|
oscssw
Senior chief petty officer
Posts: 967
Likes: 1,575
|
Post by oscssw on Feb 8, 2022 15:06:10 GMT
A Balao class submarine with a Dutch crew is still a very potent weapon in the 1960s, while all eyes might be on their carrier the submarine might cause more damage to the Indonesian military.
I had to do some research on these Guppy Conversion subs (been a very long time since I trained against them) and what I found tracks very well with your post.
If you are interested in this subject I recommend you look at the article in Naval Encyclopedia
HNLMS Zeeleeuw (S803)
Brought out of reserve in 1952, Hawkbill was given a GUPPY IB conversion and loaned to the Netherlands under the Military Assistance Program 21 April 1953. She was commissioned in the Royal Netherlands Navy as HNLMS Zeeleeuw (S803)
Guppy I (1946)
External changes:
These GUPPY I boats featured a brand new streamlined bridge and shears structures. New periscope and radar mast supports were also devised, and they ended as much taller. The fin was built basically with a distinctive step, starting in recess after the conning tower forward section. To further reduce hydrodynamic drag, one periscope was deleted. An SV radar aerial was also added to the top of the sail. No snorkel was fitted yet as this technology was still in development at that type, and moreover adaptation was proven more difficult than expected. The Deck gun and associated containers of course was removed, as well as the hull's ballast filler openings. Instead, newly design ones were fitted over the main ballast bulge. The rest of the hull was basically the same. Capstans, cleats, and rail stanchion supports were redesigned to be retracted or removed, for better streamling and the classic clipper bow "fleet boat bow" replaced by the trademark rounded "Guppy bow", showed to give better performances underwater.This new bow also housed sonar hydrophones in a "chin mount". From then on, the new the faired structure around the conning tower and mast supports became the "sail".
Internal Changes:
There was a complete rearrangement of the inner tube to accommodate larger battery wells, and fit much larger and batteries. The goal was to at least double the electrical power. These batteries were also brand new. They used many more and thinner plates, generating higher current, and for a longer time. but they also had a shorter life calculated at 18 months. Previous ones could last for five years but took also longer to charge. Former batteries also needed specific ventilation to remove hydrogen gas and cooling water, notably to cool down termination bars. These new four 126-cell batteries (in total 504 cells), which required a larger space, taking basically the former storage, ammunition, and refrigeration spaces on board. They were connected either in series or parallel to prove a variety of voltage and current intensity, modulated into various speeds. They were placed in the following fashion: Two in the after battery well, one-and-a-half at the lower level, forward battery well, and remaining half, forward end of the pump room.
The main engine room saw its 1930s high-speed motors and reduction gears replaced by slow-speed motors, connected to the batteries. Also, open-front switchboards gave way to enclosed splash-proof cabinets and electrical loads passed onto the 120 volt 60 hertz standard. Ship electronics on their side passed to the 120 volt 400 hertz AC standard. Air conditioning system was also completely modernized and was of greater capacity. On trials, USS Pomodon reached 18.2 knots (33.7 km/h) underwater (versus 8.75 knots or 16 kph), but a slightly less impressive surface speed of 18 knots versus 20.25 knots in 1945. Odax could do slighly less. Nevertheless, they were a brave leap forward for the USN, ready long before any other fleets had their own take on this new type, including USSR.
The GUPPY IB program was an upgrade made from 1953 to 1955. It was another interim conversion which only concerned four boats, intended for export. They were fitted with snorkels and were generally similar to the GUPPY IA but with no modern sonar or fire control systems or the ESM. So basically they were probably the most downgraded versions of the whole serie. Despite of this, two were acquired by Italy and two by the Netherlands. These were the USS Barb (Enrico Tazzoli), Dace (Leonardo da Vinci), Hawkbill (HNLMS Zeeleeuw) and Icefish (HNLMS Walrus).
I have no idea if the Dutch fitted their own more modern sonar, fire control and ESM systems and/or torpedoes.
Hope this, in some small way enhances, the enjoyability of thread. Let me know if this type of post detracts from your story ssgtc and I will stop doing them.
|
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Feb 8, 2022 15:42:51 GMT
A Balao class submarine with a Dutch crew is still a very potent weapon in the 1960s, while all eyes might be on their carrier the submarine might cause more damage to the Indonesian military.
I had to do some research on these Guppy Conversion subs (been a very long time since I trained against them) and what I found tracks very well with your post.
If you are interested in this subject I recommend you look at the article in Naval Encyclopedia
HNLMS Zeeleeuw (S803)
Brought out of reserve in 1952, Hawkbill was given a GUPPY IB conversion and loaned to the Netherlands under the Military Assistance Program 21 April 1953. She was commissioned in the Royal Netherlands Navy as HNLMS Zeeleeuw (S803)
Guppy I (1946)
External changes:
These GUPPY I boats featured a brand new streamlined bridge and shears structures. New periscope and radar mast supports were also devised, and they ended as much taller. The fin was built basically with a distinctive step, starting in recess after the conning tower forward section. To further reduce hydrodynamic drag, one periscope was deleted. An SV radar aerial was also added to the top of the sail. No snorkel was fitted yet as this technology was still in development at that type, and moreover adaptation was proven more difficult than expected. The Deck gun and associated containers of course was removed, as well as the hull's ballast filler openings. Instead, newly design ones were fitted over the main ballast bulge. The rest of the hull was basically the same. Capstans, cleats, and rail stanchion supports were redesigned to be retracted or removed, for better streamling and the classic clipper bow "fleet boat bow" replaced by the trademark rounded "Guppy bow", showed to give better performances underwater.This new bow also housed sonar hydrophones in a "chin mount". From then on, the new the faired structure around the conning tower and mast supports became the "sail".
Internal Changes:
There was a complete rearrangement of the inner tube to accommodate larger battery wells, and fit much larger and batteries. The goal was to at least double the electrical power. These batteries were also brand new. They used many more and thinner plates, generating higher current, and for a longer time. but they also had a shorter life calculated at 18 months. Previous ones could last for five years but took also longer to charge. Former batteries also needed specific ventilation to remove hydrogen gas and cooling water, notably to cool down termination bars. These new four 126-cell batteries (in total 504 cells), which required a larger space, taking basically the former storage, ammunition, and refrigeration spaces on board. They were connected either in series or parallel to prove a variety of voltage and current intensity, modulated into various speeds. They were placed in the following fashion: Two in the after battery well, one-and-a-half at the lower level, forward battery well, and remaining half, forward end of the pump room.
The main engine room saw its 1930s high-speed motors and reduction gears replaced by slow-speed motors, connected to the batteries. Also, open-front switchboards gave way to enclosed splash-proof cabinets and electrical loads passed onto the 120 volt 60 hertz standard. Ship electronics on their side passed to the 120 volt 400 hertz AC standard. Air conditioning system was also completely modernized and was of greater capacity. On trials, USS Pomodon reached 18.2 knots (33.7 km/h) underwater (versus 8.75 knots or 16 kph), but a slightly less impressive surface speed of 18 knots versus 20.25 knots in 1945. Odax could do slighly less. Nevertheless, they were a brave leap forward for the USN, ready long before any other fleets had their own take on this new type, including USSR.
The GUPPY IB program was an upgrade made from 1953 to 1955. It was another interim conversion which only concerned four boats, intended for export. They were fitted with snorkels and were generally similar to the GUPPY IA but with no modern sonar or fire control systems or the ESM. So basically they were probably the most downgraded versions of the whole serie. Despite of this, two were acquired by Italy and two by the Netherlands. These were the USS Barb (Enrico Tazzoli), Dace (Leonardo da Vinci), Hawkbill (HNLMS Zeeleeuw) and Icefish (HNLMS Walrus).
I have no idea if the Dutch fitted their own more modern sonar, fire control and ESM systems and/or torpedoes.
Hope this, in some small way enhances, the enjoyability of thread. Let me know if this type of post detracts from your story ssgtc and I will stop doing them.
You're fine! Most people probably don't quite understand what a GUPPY conversion was and the differences between the various models of it. I'm lucky in that I've actually been on a GUPPY III boat (USS Clamagore SS-343) and have a good understanding on what was done to these boats. With the GUPPY IB that the Dutch have, it's essentially a WWII Balao class with some streamlining, a snorkle and new batteries. Still a potent weapon against a second or third tier Naval power though. And Indonesia would certainly fall into that category, if not even lower. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,971
Likes: 49,373
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 8, 2022 15:47:54 GMT
Very good observation La Rouge Beret
I had to do some research on these Guppy Conversion subs (been a very long time since I trained against them) and what I found tracks very well with your post.
If you are interested in this subject I recommend you look at the article in Naval Encyclopedia
HNLMS Zeeleeuw (S803)
Brought out of reserve in 1952, Hawkbill was given a GUPPY IB conversion and loaned to the Netherlands under the Military Assistance Program 21 April 1953. She was commissioned in the Royal Netherlands Navy as HNLMS Zeeleeuw (S803)
Guppy I (1946)
External changes:
These GUPPY I boats featured a brand new streamlined bridge and shears structures. New periscope and radar mast supports were also devised, and they ended as much taller. The fin was built basically with a distinctive step, starting in recess after the conning tower forward section. To further reduce hydrodynamic drag, one periscope was deleted. An SV radar aerial was also added to the top of the sail. No snorkel was fitted yet as this technology was still in development at that type, and moreover adaptation was proven more difficult than expected. The Deck gun and associated containers of course was removed, as well as the hull's ballast filler openings. Instead, newly design ones were fitted over the main ballast bulge. The rest of the hull was basically the same. Capstans, cleats, and rail stanchion supports were redesigned to be retracted or removed, for better streamling and the classic clipper bow "fleet boat bow" replaced by the trademark rounded "Guppy bow", showed to give better performances underwater.This new bow also housed sonar hydrophones in a "chin mount". From then on, the new the faired structure around the conning tower and mast supports became the "sail".
Internal Changes:
There was a complete rearrangement of the inner tube to accommodate larger battery wells, and fit much larger and batteries. The goal was to at least double the electrical power. These batteries were also brand new. They used many more and thinner plates, generating higher current, and for a longer time. but they also had a shorter life calculated at 18 months. Previous ones could last for five years but took also longer to charge. Former batteries also needed specific ventilation to remove hydrogen gas and cooling water, notably to cool down termination bars. These new four 126-cell batteries (in total 504 cells), which required a larger space, taking basically the former storage, ammunition, and refrigeration spaces on board. They were connected either in series or parallel to prove a variety of voltage and current intensity, modulated into various speeds. They were placed in the following fashion: Two in the after battery well, one-and-a-half at the lower level, forward battery well, and remaining half, forward end of the pump room.
The main engine room saw its 1930s high-speed motors and reduction gears replaced by slow-speed motors, connected to the batteries. Also, open-front switchboards gave way to enclosed splash-proof cabinets and electrical loads passed onto the 120 volt 60 hertz standard. Ship electronics on their side passed to the 120 volt 400 hertz AC standard. Air conditioning system was also completely modernized and was of greater capacity. On trials, USS Pomodon reached 18.2 knots (33.7 km/h) underwater (versus 8.75 knots or 16 kph), but a slightly less impressive surface speed of 18 knots versus 20.25 knots in 1945. Odax could do slighly less. Nevertheless, they were a brave leap forward for the USN, ready long before any other fleets had their own take on this new type, including USSR.
The GUPPY IB program was an upgrade made from 1953 to 1955. It was another interim conversion which only concerned four boats, intended for export. They were fitted with snorkels and were generally similar to the GUPPY IA but with no modern sonar or fire control systems or the ESM. So basically they were probably the most downgraded versions of the whole serie. Despite of this, two were acquired by Italy and two by the Netherlands. These were the USS Barb (Enrico Tazzoli), Dace (Leonardo da Vinci), Hawkbill (HNLMS Zeeleeuw) and Icefish (HNLMS Walrus).
I have no idea if the Dutch fitted their own more modern sonar, fire control and ESM systems and/or torpedoes. Hope this, in some small way enhances, the enjoyability of thread. Let me know if this type of post detracts from your story ssgtc and I will stop doing them.
You're fine! Most people probably don't quite understand what a GUPPY conversion was and the differences between the various models of it. I'm lucky in that I've actually been on a GUPPY III boat (USS Clamagore SS-343) and have a good understanding on what was done to these boats. With the GUPPY IB that the Dutch have, it's essentially a WWII Balao class with some streamlining, a snorkle and new batteries. Still a potent weapon against a second or third tier Naval power though. And Indonesia would certainly fall into that category, if not even lower. , got onboard USS Pampanito (SS-383) when i was in San Francisco, if i remember right she is in original condition never having undergone the GUPPY conversion. |
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Feb 8, 2022 16:54:38 GMT
You're fine! Most people probably don't quite understand what a GUPPY conversion was and the differences between the various models of it. I'm lucky in that I've actually been on a GUPPY III boat (USS Clamagore SS-343) and have a good understanding on what was done to these boats. With the GUPPY IB that the Dutch have, it's essentially a WWII Balao class with some streamlining, a snorkle and new batteries. Still a potent weapon against a second or third tier Naval power though. And Indonesia would certainly fall into that category, if not even lower. , got onboard USS Pampanito (SS-383) when i was in San Francisco, if i remember right she is in original condition never having undergone the GUPPY conversion. Yeah, Clamagore is the only remaining GUPPY conversion is the world. The rest have all been scrapped. And Clamagore may not be long for this world either. Patriot's Point has been trying to get the okay to sink her as an artificial reef for years. She was supposed to be scuttled last year, but covid got in the way |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,971
Likes: 49,373
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 8, 2022 17:19:55 GMT
ssgtc , got onboard USS Pampanito (SS-383) when i was in San Francisco, if i remember right she is in original condition never having undergone the GUPPY conversion. Yeah, Clamagore is the only remaining GUPPY conversion is the world. The rest have all been scrapped. And Clamagore may not be long for this world either. Patriot's Point has been trying to get the okay to sink her as an artificial reef for years. She was supposed to be scuttled last year, but covid got in the way While i might drive this thread a bit of track, just say it and we go, there are still two active submarines who have undergone a GUPPY conversion, ROCS Hai Shih (SS-791) and ROCS Hai Bao (SS-792) of the ROC Navy. |
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Feb 8, 2022 19:42:31 GMT
Yeah, Clamagore is the only remaining GUPPY conversion is the world. The rest have all been scrapped. And Clamagore may not be long for this world either. Patriot's Point has been trying to get the okay to sink her as an artificial reef for years. She was supposed to be scuttled last year, but covid got in the way While i might drive this thread a bit of track, just say it and we go, there are still two active submarines who have undergone a GUPPY conversion, ROCS Hai Shih (SS-791) and ROCS Hai Bao (SS-792) of the ROC Navy. Jesus, I forgot Taiwan still had those. Last I heard they were only allowed to dive once a year and only to periscope depth. |
|
