ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Dec 12, 2021 17:49:02 GMT
Based on what I could find, they don't have any A-26s or Tu-2s.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 12, 2021 17:51:47 GMT
Based on what I could find, they don't have any A-26s or Tu-2s. So we can scarp this nice OTL plane from the list.  |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 12, 2021 21:08:07 GMT
Well that was interesting. I wonder if the Indonesians have made a mistake however. Their shown their willing to make an 'attack run' on a US carrier force and also that the interceptors are limited by their speed. In which case and not knowing whether they might have missiles next time what will the USN do if a similar incident occurs, especially if there has been more tension. Also be interested to see Moscow's reaction to this incident. They could well be having kittens even through it didn't result in a shoot-out. Not really. This is the kind of thing Soviet Naval Aviation did all the time to American carrier battle groups. This is really just emphasizing that the CVS fleet needs better fighter cover than what they have. To a CVA force, this wouldn't have been more than a nuisance (Demons would have locked them up so long range and either Crusaders or Tigers would just sit on their six until they got the message)
True but that's the Soviets who are a nuclear and military superpower not an 'ally' of their who is starting to look very erratic and could drag the USSR into a conflict. This could have been an attack or the US could have thought of it as such and fired on the Indonesian bombers. I wonder whether Moscow would be worried by that and seek to calm things down?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 14, 2021 4:43:45 GMT
This a heck of a improvement i see now: Before and After! USS Yorktown (CV-10) immediately after her 1953 SCB-27A modernization (left) and immediately after her 1956 SCB-125 modernization (right).  |
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miletus12
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To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Dec 14, 2021 15:32:09 GMT
This a heck of a improvement i see now: Before and After! USS Yorktown (CV-10) immediately after her 1953 SCB-27A modernization (left) and immediately after her 1956 SCB-125 modernization (right). The things of note in the rebuilds. When the flight deck was modified, the old cantilevered frame superstructure with the wooden plamking was replaced with a lightweight STS steel cross beam arched bridge beam construction superstructure raised from the armored flight deck. It was over-laid with fire-resistant cladding. That flight deck was not going to be able to stop existent Russian or even Swedish anti-ship missiles coming into service. It would be necessary to accept holes blasted in the flight deck in order to keep the ships from being driven down by any added top weight a true 75 mm armored flight deck might add. What do I mean? The armored flight deck of the Midways was expanded to accommodate jets. This is what happened.   What one should note is the massive over-hang of the sponsoned flight deck that gave the USS Midway, already notorious for a beam roll of significant proportion in sea state 6, a dangerous beam roll that caused her to duck waddle in sea state 4. She was not allowed to launch or recover aircraft in sea states greater than 6-8 after the 1970 refit was botched. Even adding hull blisters after to improve the float reserve proved ineffective. She acquired a port five degree list that could not be corrected. And that topweight drove her down two meters deeper than her fully loaded WWII draft. This made her a flat-iron as far as aircraft carrier characteristics were concerned. So no armored flight decks for you!One presumes the super-carriers of the Forrestal and later classes have been built with these lessons learned. Enough reserve buoyancy must be provided to handle a sponsoned armored flight deck to keep it above 10 meter waves and beam to length ratios should be factored to minimize beam roll and flight deck pitch in the worst Atlantic weather. It was sheer accident that the Essex class met those requirements for angle deck refits with considerable bulging; but only without the heavy armored angled flight deck initially planned. They retained the lighter 3.7 cm flight deck splinter and decap bomb protection of their WWII configuration. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Dec 27, 2021 18:02:55 GMT
February 16, 1959
Over the Banda Sea
Viktor Pavlovich Potapov was very pleased with the performance of his aircraft and crew this day. His Tu-16 had blown past the American fighter screen with ease. The old straight wing jets were no match for his sleek, swept wing bomber. The Americans must be mad, or grossly incompetent, to think that such an ancient design could seriously threaten the most advanced bomber deployed by Soviet Naval Aviation. He wouldn't lie, he had felt his ass tighten when his co-pilot called out that he saw missiles hanging from the wings of the American fighters. No matter how fast his bomber was, it couldn't outrun a missile. But the Americans never launched and he and his comrades had long since left them behind.
Speaking of comrades, Viktor glanced to his right at the man in the seat next to him. The man was an Indonesian, one of the pilots being trained by the detachment he was part of. Having the man in the right seat served two purposes. It gave the Indonesians some much needed experience in tracking and targeting a carrier group, it allowed the Indonesians to claim that it was there men who had made the simulated attack run (and indeed, half the crews on each of the bombers was an Indonesian) and it allowed his government to deny any involvement in the "demonstration" being flown.
For this mission, the planes in the formation were being flown unarmed. They wanted to send a message, not start a war. They had received their orders from Moscow once it became apparent that the Americans were taking a more active interest in the Indonesian-Dutch conflict than they expected. It was hoped that the American Navy would get the message and back off. If not, well, they could always fly the next mission with missiles on the wings.
But that was a discussion for another time and likely, another crew. He would be leaving Indonesia in just a handful of weeks. He finally received his orders to attend the Leningrad Naval Academy, Aviation Faculty. He would leave the Indonesians to their own devices then.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Dec 27, 2021 18:05:19 GMT
February 17, 1959
Den Helder Naval Base, Netherland
A dozen Hawker Hunter aircraft from 323 Squadron are flown to the Naval Air Station and prepared for shipment to West New Guinea. The aircraft are to be loaded onto the Karel Doorman for a rapid redeployment to the air base on Biak in West New Guinea. Along with the fighters, spare parts for the fighters are crammed onto the overloaded carrier in every nook and cranny that can be found. Everyone was nervous about this arrangement. While the planes of 323 Squadron were embarked, the carrier would be unable to conduct any flight operations of it's own. The Americans and British had agreed to try and provide some air cover for the battle group during their transit, but promises between nations were rarely worth the paper they were written on.
With the Air Force squadron embarked, the carrier and her her crew found themselves overcrowded. What that meant for the pilots and ground crew of 323 Squadron was that they will have to hot bunk with the Doorman's own personnel. Though no one is happy with the berthing arrangements, they are only temporary. As part of the deployment to the Southwest Pacific, a port visit is hastily arranged for Freemantle, Western Australia. While in port, the Hunters and their air crew will be offloaded and flown to New Guinea to augment what remained of the Gloster Meteors of 322 Squadron. The spare parts and ground staff will be delivered directly to Biak by the Doorman once the remains of 322 squadron combined with the freshly arrived 323 Squadron establish air superiority over Biak. It is hoped that the carrier will only need to be in port for twelve hours to unload the equipment needed by the squadron. Getting caught in port by a hostile enemy force was not a situation any Navy wanted to find itself in.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 27, 2021 19:01:32 GMT
February 17, 1959
Den Helder Naval Base, NetherlandA dozen Hawker Hunter aircraft from 323 Squadron are flown to the Naval Air Station and prepared for shipment to West New Guinea. The aircraft are to be loaded onto the Karel Doorman for a rapid redeployment to the air base on Biak in West New Guinea. A Would it look like this.  |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Dec 27, 2021 22:46:23 GMT
February 17, 1959
Den Helder Naval Base, NetherlandA dozen Hawker Hunter aircraft from 323 Squadron are flown to the Naval Air Station and prepared for shipment to West New Guinea. The aircraft are to be loaded onto the Karel Doorman for a rapid redeployment to the air base on Biak in West New Guinea. A Would it look like this. Essentially, yes. |
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Dec 27, 2021 23:44:23 GMT
Hmmmm the Dutch are in a bind here, use their carrier as a fast transport, but in doing so denude her of organic air power.
The alternative is that the Hunters fly out to Netherlands New Guinea, but that would have to be flown with a guide aircraft for navigation over the Pacific. Since I can't see the Indonesians giving permission for the Dutch to directly overfly their territorial air space.
No easy answers either way.
What was the USN BARCAP were they F 9Fs?
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Dec 28, 2021 3:13:44 GMT
Hmmmm the Dutch are in a bind here, use their carrier as a fast transport, but in doing so denude her of organic air power. The alternative is that the Hunters fly out to Netherlands New Guinea, but that would have to be flown with a guide aircraft for navigation over the Pacific. Since I can't see the Indonesians giving permission for the Dutch to directly overfly their territorial air space. No easy answers either way. What was the USN BARCAP were they F 9Fs? The Doorman will still have her own air group on board, but with the additional squadron of jets on board, they carrier is essentially deck locked and unable to conduct flight operations until they can offload the Air Force jets. And the Yorktown BARCAP was not quite that bad. They were F2H-3 Banshees. The Panther had been retired in 1958. Though the Banshee was also being retired at the time and in fact, this was the last cruise by VF-92 with the type. The Banshee would be fully retired by 1962. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 28, 2021 4:02:41 GMT
Hmmmm the Dutch are in a bind here, use their carrier as a fast transport, but in doing so denude her of organic air power. Also might depend what naval escort the carrier gets. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 28, 2021 5:45:39 GMT
It isn’t really a problem, as Fremantle is far out of range of…anything…the Indonesians have. It is 1871 miles away from Jakarta, whereas the Badgers have a combat range of 1100 miles. It would take something like a Vulcan to put it in range and the Reds don’t have them.
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Dec 28, 2021 9:39:01 GMT
Are the Dutch also liasing with the Australians, as tying in RAAF P 2 Neptune patrols along their route would go a long way to dissuading any Indonesian submarines and improve the task force's surface picture.
Part of me wonders whether another Dutch task force sailing through Indonesian waters, might conjure up some ill omens from their experience fighting thevIJN 20 years earlier?
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Dec 28, 2021 13:42:22 GMT
Are the Dutch also liasing with the Australians, as tying in RAAF P 2 Neptune patrols along their route would go a long way to dissuading any Indonesian submarines and improve the task force's surface picture. Part of me wonders whether another Dutch task force sailing through Indonesian waters, might conjure up some ill omens from their experience fighting thevIJN 20 years earlier? To a point they are. The FAA and RAAF have agreed to fly patrols over the area in an attempt to discourage Indonesian aggression, but there really isn't much they can do short of escalating the conflict themselves and attacking any sub they detect. And given that the USSR is also operating Whiskey class boats, that's a huge risk on their part (really don't want to attack a Red Navy boat by mistake). The RAAF has also agreed to try and distract the IAF by flying "training" stories out of Papua New Guinea with their F-86s while the carrier makes her run into Hollandia. |
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