stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 5, 2021 10:49:59 GMT
New Zealand - how come AH'ers and Military knows the right answer while politicians always think of the next vote and how to get through to it obscuring their mind from the things that really matters! Very interesting and always the dilemma of the small democratic state..
Because their politicians and as such have to think of that next vote. Also to be honest its often that AHers and military think we know the right answer. In enough debates now and in the past on the sites I spend time on to know that AHers often disagree. Similarly if you think of say Ludendorf in 1917-18 and the Japanese military from ~1937 onward its hard to say that the military know the right answers.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 5, 2021 10:58:42 GMT
February 13, 1959
Amahai and Letfuan, IndonesiaRight behind the eight light bombers, the Shenyang F-5s of Air Squadrons 11 and 12 roared down the runway to escort the cumbersome bombers all the way to their targets. This mission, like it was for the bombers, was stretching their endurance to the limit. Every fighter carried two 400L drop tanks to extend their range as much as possible. Even so, they would have only enough fuel for five minutes of combat. That would have to be enough. For the first time, every pilot flying the mission would be Indonesian. Air Chief Marshal Soerjadi Soerjadarma had asked the Soviets and Chinese if they would allow some of their "advisors" to fly the mission as well, but they had refused due to the amount of time the aircraft would spend in Dutch airspace. They couldn't risk any of their pilots being captured if they were shot down. While that was entirely reasonable and he understood why they had refused, he would still feel better about their odds of success if they had some more experienced pilots to leaven their ranks. While he had full confidence in Colonel Roesmin Noerjadin, the Commanding Officer of Air Squadron 11 and commander of the fighter screen, the majority of his pilots were still green. They had been highly trained by their Soviet and Chinese trainers, and a few had even flown real combat missions against the Permesta rebels. But they still didn't have anything close to the hours and hours of training that the Dutch had. His pilots were flying the better aircraft, but he himself knew that a better plane wasn't an automatic win against a better pilot. Of the several dozen young men that were taking to the air this morning to carry out their country's orders, not all would be returning.
Well this could be interesting. If something spooked the escorts into dropping their tanks earlier, because they think their going into combat, then they might be unable to cover the bombers over the actual target, or ditch on the way back. Also if the bombers are that near their range limit anything that increases consumption, especially with green crews, could mean a lot of them being lost. The Dutch are definitely up against it but there are prospects that Sukarno may have made a mistake that could blow up in his face. 
The other thing with largely green crews operating at long range is how successful are they going to be in simply finding the target or do they have some guidance system to help them? A long way over sea and their likely to find western New Guinea but could be some way off course, which would mean problems finding the target before they turn back.
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 5, 2021 11:34:58 GMT
It might be difficult for the Meteors to conduct a successful interception. The F-5 is over 100 MPH faster. It also has a higher service ceiling, so the Indonesians can stay high and dive on the Dutch, using their superior aircraft to stay out of a dogfight until the bombers are over the target. Even the Beagle is only 20 MPH slower than the Meteor. So if the Dutch don't attack head on, they probably can't attack at all. Quite but in the present situation the real hope of the Dutch is attrition - get the Indonesians to use their precious fuel and if possible due to superior piloting take out an F-5 or two. One would be great as the Indonesians would feel really vulnerable. The gap of the F-5 and Meteor is less than the one of the MiG-15 and Hawker Sea Fury in Korea.
Really they should try forcing the Indonesians to run dry and ditch the aircraft worth much more than an aerial kill in the situation. Forget about the bombers - when the Indonesians get supplies of new fighters the Dutch hopefully have their Hunters in theatre.
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575
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Post by 575 on Apr 5, 2021 11:37:10 GMT
New Zealand - how come AH'ers and Military knows the right answer while politicians always think of the next vote and how to get through to it obscuring their mind from the things that really matters! Very interesting and always the dilemma of the small democratic state..
Because their politicians and as such have to think of that next vote. Also to be honest its often that AHers and military think we know the right answer. In enough debates now and in the past on the sites I spend time on to know that AHers often disagree. Similarly if you think of say Ludendorf in 1917-18 and the Japanese military from ~1937 onward its hard to say that the military know the right answers.
He-he - well if not right then ready to act and not just think of your seat (though some of them may do just that in the modern environment)!  |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 5, 2021 11:39:56 GMT
It might be difficult for the Meteors to conduct a successful interception. The F-5 is over 100 MPH faster. It also has a higher service ceiling, so the Indonesians can stay high and dive on the Dutch, using their superior aircraft to stay out of a dogfight until the bombers are over the target. Even the Beagle is only 20 MPH slower than the Meteor. So if the Dutch don't attack head on, they probably can't attack at all. Quite but in the present situation the real hope of the Dutch is attrition - get the Indonesians to use their precious fuel and if possible due to superior piloting take out an F-5 or two. One would be great as the Indonesians would feel really vulnerable. The gap of the F-5 and Meteor is less than the one of the MiG-15 and Hawker Sea Fury in Korea.
Really they should try forcing the Indonesians to run dry and ditch the aircraft worth much more than an aerial kill in the situation. Forget about the bombers - when the Indonesians get supplies of new fighters the Dutch hopefully have their Hunters in theatre.
Good point. If they can take the hit then removing the enemy fighters, depending on how many more the Indonesians have, makes more raids a lot more risky.
Of course if this ended badly for Indonesia then their probably going to turn to Moscow to send the Soviet piloted a/c in. Do the Soviets decide their backed their lackeys enough or do they risk escalating? If some Soviet advisors are captured that could change things politically as it would show Washington especially how deep the commitment of their enemies is.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Apr 5, 2021 13:04:21 GMT
It might be difficult for the Meteors to conduct a successful interception. The F-5 is over 100 MPH faster. It also has a higher service ceiling, so the Indonesians can stay high and dive on the Dutch, using their superior aircraft to stay out of a dogfight until the bombers are over the target. Even the Beagle is only 20 MPH slower than the Meteor. So if the Dutch don't attack head on, they probably can't attack at all. But they do have the advantage of knowing where the strike is coming from due the Biak radar. Also Biak is a big naval airfield to hit.  That is true, it's a big target. And radar gives the Dutch a huge edge in being able to vector their fighters onto the strike. The Dutch can still give a very account of themselves, but the pilots in the Meteors also know just how badly they're outclassed by the MiG and they know that they're likely to take horrific losses in any dogfight. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Apr 5, 2021 13:09:09 GMT
February 13, 1959
Amahai and Letfuan, IndonesiaRight behind the eight light bombers, the Shenyang F-5s of Air Squadrons 11 and 12 roared down the runway to escort the cumbersome bombers all the way to their targets. This mission, like it was for the bombers, was stretching their endurance to the limit. Every fighter carried two 400L drop tanks to extend their range as much as possible. Even so, they would have only enough fuel for five minutes of combat. That would have to be enough. For the first time, every pilot flying the mission would be Indonesian. Air Chief Marshal Soerjadi Soerjadarma had asked the Soviets and Chinese if they would allow some of their "advisors" to fly the mission as well, but they had refused due to the amount of time the aircraft would spend in Dutch airspace. They couldn't risk any of their pilots being captured if they were shot down. While that was entirely reasonable and he understood why they had refused, he would still feel better about their odds of success if they had some more experienced pilots to leaven their ranks. While he had full confidence in Colonel Roesmin Noerjadin, the Commanding Officer of Air Squadron 11 and commander of the fighter screen, the majority of his pilots were still green. They had been highly trained by their Soviet and Chinese trainers, and a few had even flown real combat missions against the Permesta rebels. But they still didn't have anything close to the hours and hours of training that the Dutch had. His pilots were flying the better aircraft, but he himself knew that a better plane wasn't an automatic win against a better pilot. Of the several dozen young men that were taking to the air this morning to carry out their country's orders, not all would be returning.
Well this could be interesting. If something spooked the escorts into dropping their tanks earlier, because they think their going into combat, then they might be unable to cover the bombers over the actual target, or ditch on the way back. Also if the bombers are that near their range limit anything that increases consumption, especially with green crews, could mean a lot of them being lost. The Dutch are definitely up against it but there are prospects that Sukarno may have made a mistake that could blow up in his face.
The other thing with largely green crews operating at long range is how successful are they going to be in simply finding the target or do they have some guidance system to help them? A long way over sea and their likely to find western New Guinea but could be some way off course, which would mean problems finding the target before they turn back.
Yup, those are all huge problems. For the range limits, I'm partially basing it on where the Indonesians actually put their fighters and bombers IOTL. So I know that they are within their range envelope. But both planes only have about 1,200-1,300 nautical miles of range total and from Ambon to Biak is about 500nm. So it's doable, but they can't hang out over the target for very long. Less if they don't nail the navigation. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 5, 2021 13:14:37 GMT
But they do have the advantage of knowing where the strike is coming from due the Biak radar. Also Biak is a big naval airfield to hit. That is true, it's a big target. And radar gives the Dutch a huge edge in being able to vector their fighters onto the strike. The Dutch can still give a very account of themselves, but the pilots in the Meteors also know just how badly they're outclassed by the MiG and they know that they're likely to take horrific losses in any dogfight. Would this also apply to 1959: METEORS VS MIGsIt became clear to the command of the UN air forces, that the heavy Meteor was not a match to the MIG in battle qualities. The only thing in what Meteors had succeeded, was their ability to sustain a significant damage |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Apr 5, 2021 13:20:08 GMT
Quite but in the present situation the real hope of the Dutch is attrition - get the Indonesians to use their precious fuel and if possible due to superior piloting take out an F-5 or two. One would be great as the Indonesians would feel really vulnerable. The gap of the F-5 and Meteor is less than the one of the MiG-15 and Hawker Sea Fury in Korea.
Really they should try forcing the Indonesians to run dry and ditch the aircraft worth much more than an aerial kill in the situation. Forget about the bombers - when the Indonesians get supplies of new fighters the Dutch hopefully have their Hunters in theatre.
Good point. If they can take the hit then removing the enemy fighters, depending on how many more the Indonesians have, makes more raids a lot more risky.
Of course if this ended badly for Indonesia then their probably going to turn to Moscow to send the Soviet piloted a/c in. Do the Soviets decide their backed their lackeys enough or do they risk escalating? If some Soviet advisors are captured that could change things politically as it would show Washington especially how deep the commitment of their enemies is.
All great points. If anything, the Chinese might be more willing to allow their pilots to fly combat, since it would be easier to pass a Chinese pilot off as Indonesian than it would be to try and pass off a Russian as Indonesian. As for numbers, Indonesia ordered 60 Shenyang F-5s (MiG-17F) in June, 1957 and has been receiving them since August of that same year. By this point, they should have received most, if not all, of them. In my notes, I have them deploying three squadrons of F-5s and one squadron of MiG-19s to bases near West Irian. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Apr 5, 2021 13:30:59 GMT
That is true, it's a big target. And radar gives the Dutch a huge edge in being able to vector their fighters onto the strike. The Dutch can still give a very account of themselves, but the pilots in the Meteors also know just how badly they're outclassed by the MiG and they know that they're likely to take horrific losses in any dogfight. Would this also apply to 1959: METEORS VS MIGsIt became clear to the command of the UN air forces, that the heavy Meteor was not a match to the MIG in battle qualities. The only thing in what Meteors had succeeded, was their ability to sustain a significant damageYes, that's a pretty fair assesment. Except that the MiG-17 is even more of a problem for the Meteor to deal with than the -15 was. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 5, 2021 17:07:07 GMT
Would this also apply to 1959: METEORS VS MIGsIt became clear to the command of the UN air forces, that the heavy Meteor was not a match to the MIG in battle qualities. The only thing in what Meteors had succeeded, was their ability to sustain a significant damageYes, that's a pretty fair assesment. Except that the MiG-17 is even more of a problem for the Meteor to deal with than the -15 was. So it will be up to the pilots who fly both type of planes to decides who who will win. |
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sandyman
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Post by sandyman on Apr 5, 2021 17:26:11 GMT
Some of my favourite story’s |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 5, 2021 17:32:25 GMT
Some of my favourite story’s He is a great writer. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Apr 5, 2021 17:42:03 GMT
Yes, that's a pretty fair assesment. Except that the MiG-17 is even more of a problem for the Meteor to deal with than the -15 was. So it will be up to the pilots who fly both type of planes to decides who who will win. In the main, yes. Though the Meteor is almost purely defensive against the Fresco. So any mistake made by the Dutch is likely to be fatal, while the superior performance of the MiG will help the Indonesian pilots escape, at least some of the time, when they fuck up. |
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Post by lordroel on Apr 5, 2021 17:52:54 GMT
So it will be up to the pilots who fly both type of planes to decides who who will win. In the main, yes. Though the Meteor is almost purely defensive against the Fresco. So any mistake made by the Dutch is likely to be fatal, while the superior performance of the MiG will help the Indonesian pilots escape, at least some of the time, when they fuck up. Ore run out of fuel. |
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