oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Apr 3, 2022 16:41:40 GMT
I just realized I contributed some technical posts to this thread before. Now FWIW, I'd like to comment on the "artistic merits of this film. " I am very, very disappointed at the ending of this movie. No great sea battle/slaughter of the 1st Air Fleet, AKA the Kidō Butai, wrecks this for me. My blood is up by the end of the movie and I want the kill which ends the war and saves millions of lives.
That said, I love a time travel movies. I even read not so good Time travel movies. I even find reread value in R. Ron Hubbard's "A Very Strange Trip". 
The "Cross-Time Engineer (Adventures of Conrad Stargard)" series by Leo Frankowski, is the Gold Standard of this genre for me. No doubt Leo was inspired by Twain's Yankee—who ultimately failed and saw all his efforts come to nought—Conrad Stargard is eminently successful in creating a new timeline in which a technologically advanced Poland becomes the dominant power in thirteenth-century Europe and Stargard himself is the most powerful man in Poland (though he chooses not to dethrone the King).
IMO the crucial difference is for the atheist Twain, the Catholic Church is dead-set against the time traveler and all his works, and it is the clergy which ultimately plays a major role in his downfall. Conversely, immediately upon his arrival in the past, Conrad Stargard meets and befriends a sympathetic Franciscan—who later on rises fast in the Church hierarchy, parallel to Stargard's own climb to eminence, and who ensures that the Church would welcome the time-traveler's New Order (and gain some considerable advantages to itself in the process). However, their official inquisition regarding Conrad (to decide if he is an agent of God or an agent of the Devil) never gets anywhere, due to the Church's excruciatingly slow bureaucracy.
I also like the Casca series created by Barry Sadler. The stories revolve around the exploits of Casca Rufio Longinus, the Roman legionary who drove the Holy Lance into the side of Jesus Christ on Golgotha. Jesus cursed him to wander the Earth aimlessly, always as a soldier from one battle to the next until the Second Coming. If he is "killed" in battle, he just regenerates and walks off the battlefield, looking for another war.
A lot of good light reading for me.
1. Casca #01: Eternal Mercenary Book
2. Casca #02: God of Death Book
3. Casca: The Warlord Book
4. Casca, Panzer Soldier - The Eternal Mercenary, Book 4 Book
5. Casca #05: Barbarian Book
6. Casca #06: Persian Book
7. Casca #07: The Damned Book
8. Casca #08: Soldier of for Book
9. Casca #09: Sentinel Book
10. Casca #10 Conquistador (R) Book
11. The Legionnaire Book
12. African Mercenary Book
13. Casca #13: Assassin Book
14. The Phoenix Book
15. Casca: The Pirate Book
16. Desert Mercenary Book
18. The Cursed (Casca, No. 18) Book
21. The Trench Soldier (Casca, No. 21) Book
22. The Mongol (Casca, No. 22) Book
29. Immortal Dragon Book |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 3, 2022 16:42:53 GMT
The Nimitz intervening at Pearl Harbor causes more damage to the Japanese Navy than what Midway did in OTL. US Pacific Fleet and Airforce suffer no casualties. Allies start mass-producing Mustangs, Corsairs and Thunderbolts to massacre the Axis Airforce and Navy. Improved Shermans with Bigger Guns are made to decimate Axis tanks. AK-47s give Allied Infantry a big advantage. More Axis cities are firebombed until they surrender much earlier. More Axis cities are nuked if they don't surrender that fast. WW2 is over by 1943. NATO is much larger while the Warsaw Pact is much smaller. The Nationalist control most of China. All of Korea is under Rhee's control. Both sides massively reduce nuclear weapons production in favor of more investments in other fronts like the Space Race The Nimitz would intimidate South Africa into letting go of Aparthied in the late-1940s US does not overthrow Honduras' democratic government. Cuba's dictator Bautista is replaced with someone much less cruel and more competent. US never gets involved in Vietnam. Nixon never becomes president. Watergate ruins him. Democratic Party is much more Progressive and controls the Presidency and Congress much longer. Eisenhower is horrified at what the Republican Party becomes. Do not think that in less than 2 years, even with the help of the Nimitz, the Allies can produce their own nukes. In the Axis of Time Series by John Birmingham it took the Allies and Uptimers a full 3 years to build their own bomb and this was with a fleet from 2030. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 3, 2022 17:24:42 GMT
The Nimitz intervening at Pearl Harbor causes more damage to the Japanese Navy than what Midway did in OTL. US Pacific Fleet and Airforce suffer no casualties. Allies start mass-producing Mustangs, Corsairs and Thunderbolts to massacre the Axis Airforce and Navy. Improved Shermans with Bigger Guns are made to decimate Axis tanks. AK-47s give Allied Infantry a big advantage. More Axis cities are firebombed until they surrender much earlier. More Axis cities are nuked if they don't surrender that fast. WW2 is over by 1943. NATO is much larger while the Warsaw Pact is much smaller. The Nationalist control most of China. All of Korea is under Rhee's control. Both sides massively reduce nuclear weapons production in favor of more investments in other fronts like the Space Race The Nimitz would intimidate South Africa into letting go of Aparthied in the late-1940s US does not overthrow Honduras' democratic government. Cuba's dictator Bautista is replaced with someone much less cruel and more competent. US never gets involved in Vietnam. Nixon never becomes president. Watergate ruins him. Democratic Party is much more Progressive and controls the Presidency and Congress much longer. Eisenhower is horrified at what the Republican Party becomes. Do not think that in less than 2 years, even with the help of the Nimitz, the Allies can produce their own nukes. In the Axis of Time Series by John Birmingham it took the Allies and Uptimers a full 3 years to build their own bomb and this was with a fleet from 2030.
I would agree. The up-timers can point them in the right direction and give some background details but I doubt if they have massive technological databases with detailed designs for a lot of stuff - although at least some of those a/c were being developed by Dec 1941. If any nukes available on the Nimitz don't do the job then the war is going to end earlier because of the damage they inflict and also what the modern forces can supply before spares and the like render them largely useless but if its not over quickly there is probably going to be a lot of bitter fighting ahead.
Similarly I'm not sure that the US would seek to intimidate S Africa into giving up apartheid given the state of US race relations in 1941. The up-timers might speed things up or news of the success of the 1960's civil rights movement could prompt a conservative backlash. Remember at this time the [white] old south is one of the Democrats strongholds. Ditto with replacing 'friendly' dictatorships with more liberal ones. That might be more likely but you could simply see a desire for more repressive strongmen to look after US interests in its indirect empire. Also if anyone mentions that a US President had moved to transfer the Panama Canal Zone back to Panamanian control.
In 1985, which IIRC is when the film was made and probably about the time its set Reagan is President and may look to be doing a good job to the down-timers. Yes he has a lot of flaws and [IMHO] set the US on a downward path but that probably won't be realised at the time. Therefore I'm not sure that his record as known by the up-timers would shock that many people and his conservatism in the face of the social changes that have occurred in the preceding decades could make his policies popular with the people from 1941.
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razor007
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Post by razor007 on Apr 3, 2022 21:06:17 GMT
I was talking about Eisenhower's reaction to Republican Party electing Nixon and catering to Racist Southern Politicians after LBJ kicked them out of the Democrat Party. Watergate's stink would hurt the GOP much more even if it is prevented.
The relevations the Uptimers would bring would be a huge shock to the Downtimer politicians. Racism and Racist policies seen as toxic by future generations.
Imagine your kids, grandkids and descendants hating you for the decisions you've made. There's a good chance the Democrats change their policies much earlier.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Apr 4, 2022 8:44:26 GMT
The Nimitz intervening at Pearl Harbor causes more damage to the Japanese Navy than what Midway did in OTL. US Pacific Fleet and Airforce suffer no casualties. Allies start mass-producing Mustangs, Corsairs and Thunderbolts to massacre the Axis Airforce and Navy. Improved Shermans with Bigger Guns are made to decimate Axis tanks. AK-47s give Allied Infantry a big advantage. More Axis cities are firebombed until they surrender much earlier. More Axis cities are nuked if they don't surrender that fast. WW2 is over by 1943. NATO is much larger while the Warsaw Pact is much smaller. The Nationalist control most of China. All of Korea is under Rhee's control. Both sides massively reduce nuclear weapons production in favor of more investments in other fronts like the Space Race The Nimitz would intimidate South Africa into letting go of Aparthied in the late-1940s US does not overthrow Honduras' democratic government. Cuba's dictator Bautista is replaced with someone much less cruel and more competent. US never gets involved in Vietnam. Nixon never becomes president. Watergate ruins him. Democratic Party is much more Progressive and controls the Presidency and Congress much longer. Eisenhower is horrified at what the Republican Party becomes. Lots of butterflies for sure. Irony is that AK-47s would come from the U.S. this time instead of the USSR. Although I'd see the U.S. produce more of other guns cheaper than the M-16. In one Philippines of 2011 ISOT to 1941 timeline, Grease Guns take the place of the AK-47 as the symbol of anti-colonialism since the Greasers are cheaper to produce. All Axis cities are vulnerable to the B-52s, B-2, and B-1. No AA gun can reach them. The uptime U.S. would ensure Mao Zedong and Joseph Stalin are overthrown, sparing communism from taking traction. The uptime U.S. would learn from its mistakes in OTL so it pressures Britain and France to decolonize faster. More butterflies would occur by the time of the downtime 1950s onwards. The TL becomes unrecognizable. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 4, 2022 12:32:53 GMT
The Nimitz intervening at Pearl Harbor causes more damage to the Japanese Navy than what Midway did in OTL. US Pacific Fleet and Airforce suffer no casualties. Allies start mass-producing Mustangs, Corsairs and Thunderbolts to massacre the Axis Airforce and Navy. Improved Shermans with Bigger Guns are made to decimate Axis tanks. AK-47s give Allied Infantry a big advantage. More Axis cities are firebombed until they surrender much earlier. More Axis cities are nuked if they don't surrender that fast. WW2 is over by 1943. NATO is much larger while the Warsaw Pact is much smaller. The Nationalist control most of China. All of Korea is under Rhee's control. Both sides massively reduce nuclear weapons production in favor of more investments in other fronts like the Space Race The Nimitz would intimidate South Africa into letting go of Aparthied in the late-1940s US does not overthrow Honduras' democratic government. Cuba's dictator Bautista is replaced with someone much less cruel and more competent. US never gets involved in Vietnam. Nixon never becomes president. Watergate ruins him. Democratic Party is much more Progressive and controls the Presidency and Congress much longer. Eisenhower is horrified at what the Republican Party becomes. Lots of butterflies for sure. Irony is that AK-47s would come from the U.S. this time instead of the USSR. Although I'd see the U.S. produce more of other guns cheaper than the M-16. In one Philippines of 2011 ISOT to 1941 timeline, Grease Guns take the place of the AK-47 as the symbol of anti-colonialism since the Greasers are cheaper to produce. All Axis cities are vulnerable to the B-52s, B-2, and B-1. No AA gun can reach them. The uptime U.S. would ensure Mao Zedong and Joseph Stalin are overthrown, sparing communism from taking traction. The uptime U.S. would learn from its mistakes in OTL so it pressures Britain and France to decolonize faster. More butterflies would occur by the time of the downtime 1950s onwards. The TL becomes unrecognizable.
Even if nukes don't end it quickly I would say the war will be ended long before any B-52s can be produced. Probably before the B-29 unless lessons learnt can cut a year or so off its development.
I can see Mao not gaining power, although the Us leaders and possibly population will be unhappy with how 1985 sees Chiang and the KMT as corrupt and incompetent. I doubt there will be the political will to go to war with the USSR to remove Stalin, especially since its technically an ally and a lot of propaganda work is being doing to make it a more palatable one. Although the latter could well be cut short.
Pressurizing Britain and France to decolonize faster is likely to lead to bigger disasters than OTL. There needs to be some time to prepare them for self-government which apart from a few such as India hasn't really happened yet. Not to mention it would be politically explosive for those colonies which significant population of whites are present, let alone Algeria, which is technically a full part of France electing MPs to the Paris Parliament - albeit with a very limited franchise.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 4, 2022 14:45:22 GMT
Irony is that AK-47s would come from the U.S. this time instead of the USSR. Although I'd see the U.S. produce more of other guns cheaper than the M-16. In one Philippines of 2011 ISOT to 1941 timeline, Grease Guns take the place of the AK-47 as the symbol of anti-colonialism since the Greasers are cheaper to produce. Why AK-47, the Nimitz has a lot of American made weapons that could be reproduced by the down timers. |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Apr 4, 2022 16:39:21 GMT
Irony is that AK-47s would come from the U.S. this time instead of the USSR. Although I'd see the U.S. produce more of other guns cheaper than the M-16. In one Philippines of 2011 ISOT to 1941 timeline, Grease Guns take the place of the AK-47 as the symbol of anti-colonialism since the Greasers are cheaper to produce. Why AK-47, the Nimitz has a lot of American made weapons that could be reproduced by the down timers. I think what razor007 meant is that AK-47s are cheaper. Unfortunately, AKs are not used by the U.S. military aside from different weapons checks. That's why in the other Philippine ISOT scenario, Grease Guns were produced more since the AFP has tons of it storage. Grease Guns are cheaper than the Tommy and definitely the M16. I'm not sure if 1941 gun companies can easily create the M4/M16 along with the 5.56 x 45 mm NATO round that quickly, though the technical expertise from the uptimers would definitely speed it up. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Apr 4, 2022 18:44:15 GMT
Not sure if you folks have seen this. If so, please disregard. If not, I hope you find it worth 20 minutes of your valuable time. As you folks know I'm retired and aside from finishing off my damn taxes, have nothing but time at present.
Could a US supercarrier defeat the whole Japanese WWII navy?
by Binkov's Battlegrounds
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melanie
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Post by melanie on Apr 5, 2022 2:02:43 GMT
For the stick Trump gets, he is actually right that the swift decolonisation of Africa was a mistake. Kleptocracy, strong man rule, authoritanism etc.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 5, 2022 2:45:02 GMT
For the stick Trump gets, he is actually right that the swift decolonisation of Africa was a mistake. Kleptocracy, strong man rule, authoritanism etc. Question, what has this to do with the Nimitz. |
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razor007
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Post by razor007 on Apr 5, 2022 3:06:20 GMT
Problem is good luck picking out ideal leaders for every colony going independence and giving them necessary funds/support for the next few years after Independence
Might be ideal to combined some former colonies when they become Independent
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 5, 2022 3:12:27 GMT
Problem is good luck picking out ideal leaders for every colony going independence and giving them necessary funds/support for the next few years after Independence Might be ideal to combined some former colonies when they become Independent That is something that will most likely be decided after the war ends. |
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razor007
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Post by razor007 on Apr 5, 2022 3:28:05 GMT
At least with Hindsight the US won't be dumb enough get involved in Vietnam AGAIN
No Korean War. Bautista is replaced by the US in Cuba.
More fuel-efficient cars is better both environmentally and for the US auto industry.
There is a good chance that LA doesn't scrap its Train network but instead upgrade it this time around
The Republican Party's reputation is ruined 30 years earlier thanks to Watergate. So are Nixon and Kissinger's lives, both pariahs.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 5, 2022 3:46:52 GMT
The Republican Party's reputation is ruined 30 years earlier thanks to Watergate. So are Nixon and Kissinger's lives, both pariahs. Do not think we need to go to far, Nimitz arrival has so huge butterfly effect if changes everything. |
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