stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 11, 2020 10:43:25 GMT
Considering that the First World War took place IRL and that the United States envisages a war with France, I think that England has no reason to support the United States, but no intention to take part in the conflict. What do you think?
The devil would be in the detail of course in terms of who was seen as responsible for causing the conflict but I would expect the most likely British approach would be an armed neutrality to protect our trade, as we're still the world's largest trading nation at that time IIRC. Along with shock and repeated offers of mediation to try and end the conflict as soon as possible. We're only really likely to get involved if one or the other side got far end off the rails to be seen as a common threat to all and then with some reluctance.
Steve
PS Thinking about it the reason' given for adding France to the list of potential enemies was an extreme group taking over in Paris. Since we're talking about immediately post WWI I suspect they were probably thinking more of a communist take over rather than a right wing one. Not sure that's at all likely but there was a reaction against the Soviet take over of Russia and assorted communists uprisings in parts of Europe, including Bavaria and Hungary.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 11, 2020 14:29:47 GMT
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 13, 2020 15:32:21 GMT
I posted some thoughts on the Avalanche Press War at Sea system in this
thread.
As a n aside, I called the torpedoes on the US Four-Piper destroyers Mark 8s; they were actually Mark10s....
Regards,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 13, 2020 15:41:47 GMT
I posted some thoughts on the Avalanche Press War at Sea system in this thread. As a n aside, I called the torpedoes on the US Four-Piper destroyers Mark 8s; they were actually Mark10s....
Regards,
So who has the most battleships in the 1920s, the United States ore France. |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 13, 2020 16:15:50 GMT
So who has the most battleships in the 1920s, the United States ore France.
In a Washington Treaty environment, the US would have
3 Colorados
2 Calfornias 3 New Mexicos 2 Pennsylvanias 2 Nevadas 2 New Yorks 2 Wyomings 2 Floridas
France would have
3 Bretagnes 4 Courbets 3 Dantons
If there is no treaty, we might assume the US completes the South Dakota and Lexington classes, and France adds four or five Normanide's suspended by World War I (four were actually launched IIRC)
Neither side's battleships are perfect. For example, the US 14in/50 on the five California/New Mexico classes had some dispersion problems. See
and this post by Bill Jurens as well
Also, see this post where I quoted Mr Jurens
Regards,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 13, 2020 18:13:10 GMT
So who has the most battleships in the 1920s, the United States ore France. In a Washington Treaty environment, the US would have
3 Colorados
2 Calfornias 3 New Mexicos 2 Pennsylvanias 2 Nevadas 2 New Yorks 2 Wyomings 2 Floridas France would have 3 Bretagnes 4 Courbets 3 Dantons If there is no treaty, we might assume the US completes the South Dakota and Lexington classes, and France adds four or five Normanide's suspended by World War I (four were actually launched IIRC)
Neither side's battleships are perfect. For example, the US 14in/50 on the five California/New Mexico classes had some dispersion problems. See and this post by Bill Jurens as well Also, see this post where I quoted Mr Jurens
Regards, The french are not in a good posistion in numbers of battleships, but then again the United States has its fleet divided on the West and east Coast, the United States Pacific Fleet will have to use the Panama Canal to link up with the Atlantic Fleet, and i do not think the French are in any position to attack the Panama Canal. Also this link is interesting: Notes on U.S. Fleet Organisation and Disposition, 1898-1941When Wilson and Daniels left office, the Navy was able to reestablish a unified battle fleet, based in the Pacific, where the main threat--Japan--lay. In 1921-1922 it gradually effected a major reorganization, which was formalized in a General Order of 6 December 1922. This put most of the major fighting forces of the Navy under a new organization, the United States Fleet. This would consist of: 1) the Battle Fleet, based in the Pacific and encompassing most of the battleships, including all of the more modern ones; 2) the Scouting Fleet, consisting of older battleships and other units, based in the Atlantic; 3) the Control Force, based in the Atlantic, consisting of light forces assigned to protection of the sealanes and defence against amphibious attack; and 4) Fleet Base Force. Not included in the United States Fleet, and remaining independent, were the Asiatic Fleet; Naval Forces, Europe; 3) the Special Service Squadron in the Caribbean; and 4) the submarines.
And this is a good link as well: THE TWO OCEAN NAVY 1919-1922 |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 13, 2020 19:22:20 GMT
The french are not in a good posistion in numbers of battleships, but then again the United States has its fleet divided on the West and east Coast, the United States Pacific Fleet will have to use the Panama Canal to link up with the Atlantic Fleet, and i do not think the French are in any position to attack the Panama Canal. Also this link is interesting: Notes on U.S. Fleet Organisation and Disposition, 1898-1941When Wilson and Daniels left office, the Navy was able to reestablish a unified battle fleet, based in the Pacific, where the main threat--Japan--lay. In 1921-1922 it gradually effected a major reorganization, which was formalized in a General Order of 6 December 1922. This put most of the major fighting forces of the Navy under a new organization, the United States Fleet. This would consist of: 1) the Battle Fleet, based in the Pacific and encompassing most of the battleships, including all of the more modern ones; 2) the Scouting Fleet, consisting of older battleships and other units, based in the Atlantic; 3) the Control Force, based in the Atlantic, consisting of light forces assigned to protection of the sealanes and defence against amphibious attack; and 4) Fleet Base Force. Not included in the United States Fleet, and remaining independent, were the Asiatic Fleet; Naval Forces, Europe; 3) the Special Service Squadron in the Caribbean; and 4) the submarines.
And this is a good link as well: THE TWO OCEAN NAVY 1919-1922
Good sites, thanks.
Based on the US Atlantic fleet, and with the Pre-Dreadnoughts being withdrawn, I could see this for US dispositions:
South Carolina
Michigan
Utah
Florida
Delaware
North Dakota
Pennsylvania [FF]
Oklahoma
Arizona
Nevada
Frederick
Huntington
Pueblo
St. Louis
Maybe a couple more armored cruisers and New York and Texas come to the Atlantic to give the US an advantage in numbers....
I could see the US Pacific Fleet going after Fiji, New Caledonia and Espiritu Santo
Still leaves 10 battleships in the Pacific...
What do the French do about a split between the Med and Atlantic? Abandon the Med? Abandon the Atlantic, pull everything to Toulon to try to preserve the fleet for post-war?
My thoughts,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 13, 2020 19:38:05 GMT
The french are not in a good posistion in numbers of battleships, but then again the United States has its fleet divided on the West and east Coast, the United States Pacific Fleet will have to use the Panama Canal to link up with the Atlantic Fleet, and i do not think the French are in any position to attack the Panama Canal. Also this link is interesting: Notes on U.S. Fleet Organisation and Disposition, 1898-1941When Wilson and Daniels left office, the Navy was able to reestablish a unified battle fleet, based in the Pacific, where the main threat--Japan--lay. In 1921-1922 it gradually effected a major reorganization, which was formalized in a General Order of 6 December 1922. This put most of the major fighting forces of the Navy under a new organization, the United States Fleet. This would consist of: 1) the Battle Fleet, based in the Pacific and encompassing most of the battleships, including all of the more modern ones; 2) the Scouting Fleet, consisting of older battleships and other units, based in the Atlantic; 3) the Control Force, based in the Atlantic, consisting of light forces assigned to protection of the sealanes and defence against amphibious attack; and 4) Fleet Base Force. Not included in the United States Fleet, and remaining independent, were the Asiatic Fleet; Naval Forces, Europe; 3) the Special Service Squadron in the Caribbean; and 4) the submarines.
And this is a good link as well: THE TWO OCEAN NAVY 1919-1922Good sites, thanks.
Based on the US Atlantic fleet, and with the Pre-Dreadnoughts being withdrawn, I could see this for US dispositions:
South Carolina
Michigan
Utah
Florida
Delaware
North Dakota
Pennsylvania [FF]
Oklahoma
Arizona
Nevada
Frederick
Huntington
Pueblo
St. Louis
Maybe a couple more armored cruisers and New York and Texas come to the Atlantic to give the US an advantage in numbers.... I could see the US Pacific Fleet going after Fiji, New Caledonia and Espiritu Santo
Still leaves 10 battleships in the Pacific... What do the French do about a split between the Med and Atlantic? Abandon the Med? Abandon the Atlantic, pull everything to Toulon to try to preserve the fleet for post-war?
My thoughts,
Well here is the DISTRIBUTION OF FRENCH NAVAL FORCES January 1922, do not think it is much different in the 1920 to 1925 period. So in 1922 the French Navy had:Battleships1st Division, Mediterranean: Bretagne,Lorraine and Provence. 2nd Division, North: Condorcet, Diderot and Voltaire. 3rd Division, Mediterranean: Courbet [refit],France, Jean Bart and Paris [refit]. Assume the 2nd Division, North is based out in Cherbourg Naval Base, with the Channel Division of the French Navy. |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 14, 2020 11:48:17 GMT
Well here is the DISTRIBUTION OF FRENCH NAVAL FORCES January 1922, do not think it is much different in the 1920 to 1925 period. So in 1922 the French Navy had:Battleships1st Division, Mediterranean: Bretagne,Lorraine and Provence. 2nd Division, North: Condorcet, Diderot and Voltaire. 3rd Division, Mediterranean: Courbet [refit],France, Jean Bart and Paris [refit]. Assume the 2nd Division, North is based out in Cherbourg Naval Base, with the Channel Division of the French Navy.
Thanks for that, lordroel.
As an aside, you should post that link over on the BC Board in our 'Useful Links' thread (sticky, at the top of the board)
We've been trying to create an archive of helpful links. Some sites have passed on since we started, but since the links are there, those sites can also be accessed via webarchive. But I digress....
That's very interesting and useful information. Several years ago, on Warship Projects 3.0 and on Bob Henneman's forum when it was on phpbb boards, I posted a hypothetical about a French incursion into the Baltic, and the Wiemar Marine trying to stop them. Whitley mention in his German Capital Ships book that WM wargames revolved around stopping the French, specifically the surviving Dantons, in the Baltic. That deployment, with the dreadnoughts in the Mediterranean, would explain in part why the WM looked at the last pre-dreadnoughts. They also felt the MN would not want to risk dreadnoughts in the Baltic...
Both forums have long since been hacked and destroyed, but WD Martin brought the subject up, and it has been re-posted on the Yuku/tapatalk BC board here:
Regards,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 14, 2020 11:51:47 GMT
Well here is the DISTRIBUTION OF FRENCH NAVAL FORCES January 1922, do not think it is much different in the 1920 to 1925 period. So in 1922 the French Navy had:Battleships1st Division, Mediterranean: Bretagne,Lorraine and Provence. 2nd Division, North: Condorcet, Diderot and Voltaire. 3rd Division, Mediterranean: Courbet [refit],France, Jean Bart and Paris [refit]. Assume the 2nd Division, North is based out in Cherbourg Naval Base, with the Channel Division of the French Navy. Thanks for that, lordroel. As an aside, you should post that link over on the BC Board in our 'Useful Links' thread (sticky, at the top of the board) We've been trying to create an archive of helpful links. Some sites have passed on since we started, but since the links are there, those sites can also be accessed via webarch9ve. But I digress.... That's very interesting and useful information. Several years ago, on Warship Projects 3.0 and on Bob Henneman's forum when it was on phpbb boards, I posted a hypothetical about a French incursion into the Baltic, and the Wiemar Marine trying to stop them. Whitley mention in his German Capital Ships book that WM wargames revolved around stopping the French, specifically the surviving Dantons, in the Baltic. That deployment, with the dreadnoughts in the Mediterranean, would explain in part why the WM looked at the last pre-dreadnoughts. They also felt the MN would not want to risk dreadnoughts in the Baltic...
Both forums have long since been hacked and destroyed, but WD Martin brought the subject up, and it has been re-posted on the Yuku/tapatalk BC board here: Regards, No problem, then i also should post this 1bigrich, if you ever heard of it: THE UNITED STATES NAVY JULY 1, 1923
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 14, 2020 11:59:06 GMT
Definitely post that as well. Another good one.
That's the whole point of the thread to share and preserve links that are useful in the discussion of naval, war and historical discussions!
Regards,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 14, 2020 12:01:07 GMT
Definitely post that as well. Another good one.
That's the whole point of the thread to share and preserve links that are useful in the discussion of naval, war and historical discussions! Regards,
Already done. But the French are in no position to challenge the United States Navy in what ever year the conflict brakes out in the 1920s, the best option for them, is not to fight at all. |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 14, 2020 12:17:44 GMT
Already done. But the French are in no position to challenge the United States Navy in what ever year the conflict brakes out in the 1920s, the best option for them, is not to fight at all.
Thanks. Please post anything else you would like to share.
That was the British position going into the Washington treaty. War with the US would be too costly. Going forward, the US would be dealt with diplomatically...
Regards,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 14, 2020 12:23:06 GMT
Already done. But the French are in no position to challenge the United States Navy in what ever year the conflict brakes out in the 1920s, the best option for them, is not to fight at all. Thanks. Please post anything else you would like to share. That was the British position going into the Washington treaty. War with the US would be too costly. Going forward, the US would be dealt with diplomatically... Regards, The British would try to mediate between the United States and France, a war is not in their best interest, it is not good for global trade if the French and United States decide to send out merchant raiders and so forth. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 14, 2020 13:50:38 GMT
The french are not in a good posistion in numbers of battleships, but then again the United States has its fleet divided on the West and east Coast, the United States Pacific Fleet will have to use the Panama Canal to link up with the Atlantic Fleet, and i do not think the French are in any position to attack the Panama Canal. Also this link is interesting: Notes on U.S. Fleet Organisation and Disposition, 1898-1941When Wilson and Daniels left office, the Navy was able to reestablish a unified battle fleet, based in the Pacific, where the main threat--Japan--lay. In 1921-1922 it gradually effected a major reorganization, which was formalized in a General Order of 6 December 1922. This put most of the major fighting forces of the Navy under a new organization, the United States Fleet. This would consist of: 1) the Battle Fleet, based in the Pacific and encompassing most of the battleships, including all of the more modern ones; 2) the Scouting Fleet, consisting of older battleships and other units, based in the Atlantic; 3) the Control Force, based in the Atlantic, consisting of light forces assigned to protection of the sealanes and defence against amphibious attack; and 4) Fleet Base Force. Not included in the United States Fleet, and remaining independent, were the Asiatic Fleet; Naval Forces, Europe; 3) the Special Service Squadron in the Caribbean; and 4) the submarines.
And this is a good link as well: THE TWO OCEAN NAVY 1919-1922
Good sites, thanks.
Based on the US Atlantic fleet, and with the Pre-Dreadnoughts being withdrawn, I could see this for US dispositions:
South Carolina
Michigan
Utah
Florida
Delaware
North Dakota
Pennsylvania [FF]
Oklahoma
Arizona
Nevada
Frederick
Huntington
Pueblo
St. Louis
Maybe a couple more armored cruisers and New York and Texas come to the Atlantic to give the US an advantage in numbers....
I could see the US Pacific Fleet going after Fiji, New Caledonia and Espiritu Santo
Still leaves 10 battleships in the Pacific...
What do the French do about a split between the Med and Atlantic? Abandon the Med? Abandon the Atlantic, pull everything to Toulon to try to preserve the fleet for post-war?
My thoughts,
Not Fiji as that's a British protectorate. 
Not sure the French can actually do anything than fight with what forces they have in the theatre they have already there, as the Spanish did. Their way to weak to have a stand up fight with the US in the Caribbean, and probably not in the Pacific either although logistics might limit the US as well as the French there. Defending against US attacks into Europe or possibly their colonies in W Africa or FIC would be a different matter possibly but they lack the forces to go head to head with the USN anywhere it can deploy its full strength.
Steve
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