Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Apr 10, 2020 15:27:17 GMT
On January 1st, 2012, the various American states that would've voted for GOP candidate Mitt Romney on November 6th get sent forty years back in time to January 1st, 1972. With the Vietnam War, the counterculture in full swing, and Richard Nixon vying for a second term, the sudden arrival of twenty-four states from the twenty-first century will surely exacerbate this zany election year. With that said, what happens next? For those who are more visual, here's a map from Wikipedia showing which states voted for Obama and Romney respectively, with the red Republican-leaning ones being the ones that get sent back in time.  Thank you in advance, Zyobot |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 10, 2020 15:38:25 GMT
On January 1st, 2012, the various American states that would've voted for GOP candidate Mitt Romney on November 6th get sent forty years back in time to January 1st, 1972. With the Vietnam War, the counterculture in full swing, and Richard Nixon vying for a second term, the sudden arrival of twenty-four states from the twenty-first century will surely exacerbate this zany election year. With that said, what happens next? For those who are more visual, here's a map from Wikipedia showing which states voted for Obama and Romney respectively, with the red Republican-leaning ones being the ones that get sent back in time. Thank you in advance, Zyobot So who would be the highest ranking government official of 2012 Red States to take charge. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Apr 10, 2020 15:41:25 GMT
On January 1st, 2012, the various American states that would've voted for GOP candidate Mitt Romney on November 6th get sent forty years back in time to January 1st, 1972. With the Vietnam War, the counterculture in full swing, and Richard Nixon vying for a second term, the sudden arrival of twenty-four states from the twenty-first century will surely exacerbate this zany election year. With that said, what happens next? For those who are more visual, here's a map from Wikipedia showing which states voted for Obama and Romney respectively, with the red Republican-leaning ones being the ones that get sent back in time. Thank you in advance, Zyobot So who would be the highest ranking government official of 2012 Red States to take charge. That's a good question. I'm guessing that with collective approval from the other states, some governor would take charge (i.e. Rick Perry from Texas). Otherwise, my assumption is that Washington would have to deal with each uptimer state individually, even though the 2012 states share common interests in this fiasco. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 10, 2020 15:43:15 GMT
So who would be the highest ranking government official of 2012 Red States to take charge. That's a good question. I'm guessing that with collective approval from the other states, some governor would take charge (i.e. Rick Perry from Texas). Otherwise, my assumption is that Washington would have to deal with each uptimer state individually, even though the 2012 states share common interests in this fiasco. Ore we could have a 2012 government official in one of the red states and thus he ore she would be the president of 2012 America. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Apr 10, 2020 15:48:49 GMT
That's a good question. I'm guessing that with collective approval from the other states, some governor would take charge (i.e. Rick Perry from Texas). Otherwise, my assumption is that Washington would have to deal with each uptimer state individually, even though the 2012 states share common interests in this fiasco. Ore we could have a 2012 government official in one of the red states and thus he ore she would be the president of 2012 America. That’s possible, but I’m not sure which one is most suited for the job. Unless bringing George W. Bush out of retirement or sending Mitt Romney along to represent the uptimer GOP states counts. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 10, 2020 15:51:44 GMT
Ore we could have a 2012 government official in one of the red states and thus he ore she would be the president of 2012 America. That’s possible, but I’m not sure which one is most suited for the job. Unless bringing George W. Bush out of retirement or sending Mitt Romney along to represent the uptimer GOP states counts. No high ranking official who is a Democrat who comes from the red states. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Apr 10, 2020 15:59:13 GMT
That’s possible, but I’m not sure which one is most suited for the job. Unless bringing George W. Bush out of retirement or sending Mitt Romney along to represent the uptimer GOP states counts. No high ranking official who is a Democrat who comes from the red states. There probably are, but I'm not sure. Having Obama represent them seems like a mismatch of ideologies, and I'd think that Democrats with great power down there tend to be pretty conservative compared to the national average. Otherwise, I'm unsure what other options there are other than either the ones I've already listed, or the states forming a mainly decentralized network and appointing some governor or other top official to represent them collectively. And again, I don't know who that would be. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 11, 2020 9:06:51 GMT
On January 1st, 2012, the various American states that would've voted for GOP candidate Mitt Romney on November 6th get sent forty years back in time to January 1st, 1972. With the Vietnam War, the counterculture in full swing, and Richard Nixon vying for a second term, the sudden arrival of twenty-four states from the twenty-first century will surely exacerbate this zany election year. With that said, what happens next? For those who are more visual, here's a map from Wikipedia showing which states voted for Obama and Romney respectively, with the red Republican-leaning ones being the ones that get sent back in time. Thank you in advance, Zyobot
Well aside from political issues there's going to be a lot of chaos and disruption for both groups due to the fractured nature of the US here with a lot of communications and transport links probably broken or disrupted. Likely to be worse for the 1972 US as the 2012 on is at least fairly continuous.
Politically one other issue not mentioned is that the up-timers know about the Watergate scandal. It hasn't happened yet, since the break-in attempt wasn't until 17th June but they will know that Nixon carried it out in their history and that's going to cause conflict. Down-time republicans will argue that it hasn't happened and hence no crime has occurred there's going to be some fall-out, although many down-timers may discount it. Also many up-time Republicans, hardened by the increasing bitterness of recent [to them] decades and knowledge of Presidental criminality [Reagan, Clinton, Trump] may also be largely immune to it.
Took a look at the 1972 map and hadn't realised it was such a massive victory for Nixon. McGovern only won one state and DC so seems likely that Nixon could well win again, probably with another landslide.
Steve
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Apr 11, 2020 17:45:24 GMT
On January 1st, 2012, the various American states that would've voted for GOP candidate Mitt Romney on November 6th get sent forty years back in time to January 1st, 1972. With the Vietnam War, the counterculture in full swing, and Richard Nixon vying for a second term, the sudden arrival of twenty-four states from the twenty-first century will surely exacerbate this zany election year. With that said, what happens next? For those who are more visual, here's a map from Wikipedia showing which states voted for Obama and Romney respectively, with the red Republican-leaning ones being the ones that get sent back in time. Thank you in advance, Zyobot
Well aside from political issues there's going to be a lot of chaos and disruption for both groups due to the fractured nature of the US here with a lot of communications and transport links probably broken or disrupted. Likely to be worse for the 1972 US as the 2012 on is at least fairly continuous.
Politically one other issue not mentioned is that the up-timers know about the Watergate scandal. It hasn't happened yet, since the break-in attempt wasn't until 17th June but they will know that Nixon carried it out in their history and that's going to cause conflict. Down-time republicans will argue that it hasn't happened and hence no crime has occurred there's going to be some fall-out, although many down-timers may discount it. Also many up-time Republicans, hardened by the increasing bitterness of recent [to them] decades and knowledge of Presidental criminality [Reagan, Clinton, Trump] may also be largely immune to it.
Took a look at the 1972 map and hadn't realised it was such a massive victory for Nixon. McGovern only won one state and DC so seems likely that Nixon could well win again, probably with another landslide.
Steve
Good points. I suppose that with the exception of Alaska, all of the uptimer states being physically next to one another helps keep trade, travel and interstate infrastructure like highways and such more intact. Though what happens to the internet thanks to the disappearance of servers and other installations that facilitate communications like that (i.e. data centers and connections between different service providers) seems...debatable, at best; maybe it'd be good to send the related satellites along, just to be a bit more merciful. Assuming that the Red States can get the Web back up and running, though, I doubt they'll hand it over to the downtimer FCC--with the same applying to 2012 TV and radio, among other things. Also, even though the Watergate Scandal hasn't happened yet, news of it will inevitably spread at some point or another, with Nixon now being saddled with a huge burden of proof to show that he completely denounces his OTL self's backdoor activities and won't pull that crap again. He can swear up and down that he's "not a crook" as much as he likes, but that doesn't guarantee that enough downtimers will trust him for him to replicate his OTL landslide. Plus, wouldn't Nixon be rather liberal by the standards of 2012 Republicans, meaning that he'll have to accommodate their wishes somewhat in terms of letting the Red States retain a great deal of autonomy? Correlation may not automatically equal causation, but I'm betting that the Deep South--whose growth and political switch from a Democratic stronghold to an arch-Republican bastion over the last forty years--would want to keep its low taxes and deregulated business climate, regardless of Reagaonomics' mixed legacy in hindsight. Maybe fearing that Nixon could get primary'd anyway, they'd put forth one of their own uptimer candidates to run for POTUS? |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 12, 2020 10:08:25 GMT
Well aside from political issues there's going to be a lot of chaos and disruption for both groups due to the fractured nature of the US here with a lot of communications and transport links probably broken or disrupted. Likely to be worse for the 1972 US as the 2012 on is at least fairly continuous.
Politically one other issue not mentioned is that the up-timers know about the Watergate scandal. It hasn't happened yet, since the break-in attempt wasn't until 17th June but they will know that Nixon carried it out in their history and that's going to cause conflict. Down-time republicans will argue that it hasn't happened and hence no crime has occurred there's going to be some fall-out, although many down-timers may discount it. Also many up-time Republicans, hardened by the increasing bitterness of recent [to them] decades and knowledge of Presidental criminality [Reagan, Clinton, Trump] may also be largely immune to it.
Took a look at the 1972 map and hadn't realised it was such a massive victory for Nixon. McGovern only won one state and DC so seems likely that Nixon could well win again, probably with another landslide.
Steve
Good points. I suppose that with the exception of Alaska, all of the uptimer states being physically next to one another helps keep trade, travel and interstate infrastructure like highways and such more intact. Though what happens to the internet thanks to the disappearance of servers and other installations that facilitate communications like that (i.e. data centers and connections between different service providers) seems...debatable, at best; maybe it'd be good to send the related satellites along, just to be a bit more merciful. Assuming that the Red States can get the Web back up and running, though, I doubt they'll hand it over to the downtimer FCC--with the same applying to 2012 TV and radio, among other things. Also, even though the Watergate Scandal hasn't happened yet, news of it will inevitably spread at some point or another, with Nixon now being saddled with a huge burden of proof to show that he completely denounces his OTL self's backdoor activities and won't pull that crap again. He can swear up and down that he's "not a crook" as much as he likes, but that doesn't guarantee that enough downtimers will trust him for him to replicate his OTL landslide. Plus, wouldn't Nixon be rather liberal by the standards of 2012 Republicans, meaning that he'll have to accommodate their wishes somewhat in terms of letting the Red States retain a great deal of autonomy? Correlation may not automatically equal causation, but I'm betting that the Deep South--whose growth and political switch from a Democratic stronghold to an arch-Republican bastion over the last forty years--would want to keep its low taxes and deregulated business climate, regardless of Reagaonomics' mixed legacy in hindsight. Maybe fearing that Nixon could get primary'd anyway, they'd put forth one of their own uptimer candidates to run for POTUS?
In terms of transport and communications I didn't know whether there had been much changes or upgrades to road, rail and power line routes for instance that might have been severed or otherwise altered over the 40 years. For instance if there was a bridge over a river on a state boundary in 1972 and by 2012 it had been replaced by a newer one at a slightly different location. In that case you might have two half bridges and the roads to them slightly adrift and hence of little use. Also I suspect there are a hell of a lot less train routes in 2012 compared to 1872 while for cars there will be a lot more.
Good points about how up-time Republicans, especially in the south will view Nixon. He would probably be seen as a raging liberal by many/most simply because so many values have change in a rightward direction. Furthermore given China's economic success and the loss of so many manufacturing jobs many people, both up and down time may become unhappy with his policy of opening relations with China. Coupled with the issue of Watergate you might see an uptime challenge to Nixon as the Republican candidate. - Needless to say once news leaks out to Beijing I can see Mao removing a lot of reformers, probably permanently this time, as he would see them as besmirching his legacy. How 1972 Moscow will react to news of its OTL collapse is going to be interesting but hopefully not in the Chinese proverb way as that could be bad for everybody!
Which makes me think would the up-time Republicans think about not giving up on S Vietnam? They could cite the sufferings of the population once the communists take over and higher technology and greater knowledge from 2012 to argue for 'winning' the war. This is likely to be deeply controversial to many others however. Plus one of the reasons why the war was so unpopular was the use of conscription only for young troops so a lot of the army fighting in Vietnam were teenage conscripts. 2012 is used to a volunteer army, which is going to be another contrast between the two.
Steve
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Post by EwellHolmes on Apr 13, 2020 2:42:51 GMT
Hart-Cellar probably gets repealed, and Pro-Life provisions as well as the OTL proposed Marriage Amendment get added to the Constitution. The NVA gets fucking pounded, to put it bluntly, by overwhelming air attacks if they make a move for Saigon, meaning the RVN survives to become an Asian Tiger.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 13, 2020 6:59:10 GMT
Hart-Cellar probably gets repealed, and Pro-Life provisions as well as the OTL proposed Marriage Amendment get added to the Constitution. The NVA gets fucking pounded, to put it bluntly, by overwhelming air attacks if they make a move for Saigon, meaning the RVN survives to become an Asian Tiger. So the Red States are going all out in Vietnam then. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 13, 2020 11:16:13 GMT
Hart-Cellar probably gets repealed, and Pro-Life provisions as well as the OTL proposed Marriage Amendment get added to the Constitution. The NVA gets fucking pounded, to put it bluntly, by overwhelming air attacks if they make a move for Saigon, meaning the RVN survives to become an Asian Tiger. So the Red States are going all out in Vietnam then.
Only if their willing and capable of taking on the bulk of operations themselves. By this time down-time US is pretty sick of the war and communists excesses after the fall of the south might not change that attitude much. Also massed air strikes will do nothing again guerilla forces and if used against populated areas in the south are going to inflict heavy civilians casualties. It will need troops on the ground that are not going to be in shoot 1st, check afterwards mode and for a long time. Its possible but would 2012 US be willing to take the losses.
The other option is continued pounding of the north which would mean less US losses but is going to be politically unpopular in both the US and abroad. True if they can apply 2012 technology they can be a lot more accurate and hence do a lot of material damage with far less civilian casualties but that would need access to down-time bases as well.
There is a possibility that S Vietnam, if kept outside communist control, could become another Asian tiger but its going to be a lot more difficult. Its going to be under a lot more pressure with an hostile northern neighbour at this point supported by both China and the USSR and has an exposed western border unless the US also manages to defeat the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. Also something would have to be done about the corrupt and autocratic government which is going to be far more difficult than in S Korea or Taiwan due to the foreign threat being so close. Again its possible but is going to be a lot harder.
Steve
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Post by EwellHolmes on Apr 13, 2020 20:29:01 GMT
Hart-Cellar probably gets repealed, and Pro-Life provisions as well as the OTL proposed Marriage Amendment get added to the Constitution. The NVA gets fucking pounded, to put it bluntly, by overwhelming air attacks if they make a move for Saigon, meaning the RVN survives to become an Asian Tiger. So the Red States are going all out in Vietnam then. By all out, if you mean mass air strikes, then yes. The U.S. did that IOTL 1972 during the Easter Offensive and utterly decimated the NVA formations, bringing their offensive to a close. This will win the war for the RVN. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 14, 2020 11:19:48 GMT
So the Red States are going all out in Vietnam then. By all out, if you mean mass air strikes, then yes. The U.S. did that IOTL 1972 during the Easter Offensive and utterly decimated the NVA formations, bringing their offensive to a close. This will win the war for the RVN.
No it would stop a quick defeat for the RVN but that will remain vulnerable until its got a much stronger basis and/or the threat from the north [and west] is removed, which is much more difficult. It will take a lot of time and effort and there will be a need for troops on the ground for a few years yet.
What might make the difference is that 2012 troops with experience from the ME and other areas are likely to be much more aware of the need for an hearts and minds approach rather than the sheer firepower that often got used in the 60's in Vietnam.
If the US can prevent the Khmer Rouge gaining power that would be a huge boost for that country, although few in 1972 will be aware of it. Also if they can restore some stability to Cambodia that would help safeguard the western flank of S Vietnam. However again their already in a weak position there.
Steve
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