stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 5, 2020 12:08:49 GMT
According to this stie: Task Force 8 with Enterprise was 315 miles from Pearl Harbor at 0618 in the morning, when they launched the scouts to reconnoiter ahead then land at Pearl Harbor.
If you check the 1223 entry, Commander, TF 8 (Halsey) asked about those planes. They should have landed at 0830, in the middle of the first attack. Regards, Am i reading this correctly, at: 1258 Com 14 Four Japanese transports off Barbers Point.
1300 RAMSAY Jap ship four miles from Barbers Point.Parachute troops landing on North Shore.
plane.)Looking at this, not only where they under air attack, they toughed the Japanese where landing troops ashore as well.
Given they had been taken totally by surprise and the panic about landings in California a few days later they could well have been jumping at shadows very much. Might have been a parachute, which could have been Japanese or American, for a pilot who got shot down caused such a rumour. After all most opinion was that Hawaii was beyond the reach of Japan - who had to stretch their logistics to the limits as it was to make the attack - so for the ordinary soldier, let alone civilians they would have no way of knowing how utterly insane an attempt at an invasion would have been for Japan, At least unless they only attacked the US and didn't do anything against the East Indies, which would have been suicidal for them and even then getting an invasion force to Hawaii would have strained Japanese resources to the limit. As well as quite possibly doomed the entire operation as a large slow moving invasion force would be much easier to spot than a fast force of CVs and escorts.
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 5, 2020 12:44:54 GMT
Am i reading this correctly, at: 1258 Com 14 Four Japanese transports off Barbers Point.
1300 RAMSAY Jap ship four miles from Barbers Point.Parachute troops landing on North Shore.
plane.)Looking at this, not only where they under air attack, they toughed the Japanese where landing troops ashore as well.
Well, that's part of the fog of war. Things get mistaken and misinterpreted and then false reports are sent out. Look at Admiral Paliser's message to Tom Phillips during Force Z's sortie about "LANDINGS!!!!" at Kuantan The search for the 'landings' (There were none) kept Prince of Wales and Repulse in danger longer than they should have been....
For another example, look at the Japanese over-concentration on West Virginia and Oklahoma during the Pearl Harbor attack...
My thoughts,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 5, 2020 19:19:56 GMT
Am i reading this correctly, at: 1258 Com 14 Four Japanese transports off Barbers Point.
1300 RAMSAY Jap ship four miles from Barbers Point.Parachute troops landing on North Shore.
plane.)Looking at this, not only where they under air attack, they toughed the Japanese where landing troops ashore as well. Well, that's part of the fog of war. Things get mistaken and misinterpreted and then false reports are sent out. Look at Admiral Paliser's message to Tom Phillips during Force Z's sortie about "LANDINGS!!!!" at Kuantan The search for the 'landings' (There were none) kept Prince of Wales and Repulse in danger longer than they should have been.... For another example, look at the Japanese over-concentration on West Virginia and Oklahoma during the Pearl Harbor attack... My thoughts, And then i read the good Invasion: Pearl Harbor! to understand that there was no way the Japanese could have invaded the islands |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 5, 2020 22:23:25 GMT
And then i read the good Invasion: Pearl Harbor! to understand that there was no way the Japanese could have invaded the islands
There is a lot of good stuff over at Combined Fleet; that's another example. Thanks for posting that. The pie graph of Japanese shipping needs really sets what the Japanese did to themselves by going to war. As I recall, they needed about 10 million GRT annually, but their merchant fleet was only about 6 million tons. The balance was carried on foreign flagged ships, which ere immediately lost with the war. Fascism's control of the economy aside, no wonder their industry struggled...
Regards,
--Edit; I just realized all that is said (more accurately than I did) in the adjacent paragraph....
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 6, 2020 7:28:09 GMT
And then i read the good Invasion: Pearl Harbor! to understand that there was no way the Japanese could have invaded the islands There is a lot of good stuff over at Combined Fleet; that's another example. Thanks for posting that. The pie graph of Japanese shipping needs really sets what the Japanese did to themselves by going to war. As I recall, they needed about 10 million GRT annually, but their merchant fleet was only about 6 million tons. The balance was carried on foreign flagged ships, which ere immediately lost with the war. Fascism's control of the economy aside, no wonder their industry struggled... Regards, --Edit; I just realized all that is said (more accurately than I did) in the adjacent paragraph....
Seems that what i found on the net and about a an alternative plan which did include for the invasion and occupation of Hawaii was presented by Professor John J. Stephan in his book Hawaii under the Rising Sun: Japan's Plans for Conquest after Pearl Harbor (1984) which says: The aims of Japan's Midway Operation (Operation AF) were not limited to tricking the US carriers into a destructive engagment and occupation of Midway. The attack and eventual occupation of Midway was intended to be the first stage of a larger plan that would end in a major Japanese attack on Hawaii. After securing Midway, the next step was to be the occupation of America's Johnston Island, south-west of Pearl Harbor, and then establish bases on the big island of Hawaii. Once those air and naval footholds were established, Japan intended to launch air and naval attacks on Oahu from those bases, the so Eastern Operation. Stephan states that achieving this objective offered the best prospect of drawing the United States into peace talks leading to recognition of Japan's claim to domination of the western Pacific region and save Japan from a prolonged and disastrous war. |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 6, 2020 15:45:02 GMT
Seems that what i found on the net and about a an alternative plan which did include for the invasion and occupation of Hawaii was presented by Professor John J. Stephan in his book Hawaii under the Rising Sun: Japan's Plans for Conquest after Pearl Harbor (1984) which says: The aims of Japan's Midway Operation (Operation AF) were not limited to tricking the US carriers into a destructive engagment and occupation of Midway. The attack and eventual occupation of Midway was intended to be the first stage of a larger plan that would end in a major Japanese attack on Hawaii. After securing Midway, the next step was to be the occupation of America's Johnston Island, south-west of Pearl Harbor, and then establish bases on the big island of Hawaii. Once those air and naval footholds were established, Japan intended to launch air and naval attacks on Oahu from those bases, the so Eastern Operation. Stephan states that achieving this objective offered the best prospect of drawing the United States into peace talks leading to recognition of Japan's claim to domination of the western Pacific region and save Japan from a prolonged and disastrous war.
I've long considered the 'taking' of Hawaii more, in business terms, a 'stretch' goal, bordering on fantasy. The Japanese logistics and manpower would have to come from somewhere, and where were they going to get it. And we have to remember, histoircally, the IJN crossed the International Dateline twice; once for Pearl Harbor, a success, and once for Midway, and abject failure.
All that said, I just posted this over on the BC board, and Jon Parshall does mention Hawaii as part of a negotiated settlement strategy:
Regards.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 6, 2020 17:41:47 GMT
Seems that what i found on the net and about a an alternative plan which did include for the invasion and occupation of Hawaii was presented by Professor John J. Stephan in his book Hawaii under the Rising Sun: Japan's Plans for Conquest after Pearl Harbor (1984) which says: The aims of Japan's Midway Operation (Operation AF) were not limited to tricking the US carriers into a destructive engagment and occupation of Midway. The attack and eventual occupation of Midway was intended to be the first stage of a larger plan that would end in a major Japanese attack on Hawaii. After securing Midway, the next step was to be the occupation of America's Johnston Island, south-west of Pearl Harbor, and then establish bases on the big island of Hawaii. Once those air and naval footholds were established, Japan intended to launch air and naval attacks on Oahu from those bases, the so Eastern Operation. Stephan states that achieving this objective offered the best prospect of drawing the United States into peace talks leading to recognition of Japan's claim to domination of the western Pacific region and save Japan from a prolonged and disastrous war.I've long considered the 'taking' of Hawaii more, in business terms, a 'stretch' goal, bordering on fantasy. The Japanese logistics and manpower would have to come from somewhere, and where were they going to get it. And we have to remember, histoircally, the IJN crossed the International Dateline twice; once for Pearl Harbor, a success, and once for Midway, and abject failure. All that said, I just posted this over on the BC board, and Jon Parshall does mention Hawaii as part of a negotiated settlement strategy: Regards.
Loved to see the carrier chart in the clip, never realized it took the Japanese until 1944 when they had replaced their carriers they lost in Midway while the United States had build in the 2 digits.  |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 7, 2020 11:57:04 GMT
Loved to see the carrier chart in the clip, never realized it took the Japanese until 1944 when they had replaced their carriers they lost in Midway while the United States had build in the 2 digits.
The industrial capacity of the Untied States at the time was massive, and many have trouble getting their minds around just how big it was. As I recall, in 1942, the US opened 27 shipyards in California alone. By the end of the war the US Navy was larger than every other navy in the world combined. The US Navy alone had built over 70,000 aircraft during the war. And all this while the Army was building nearly 50,000 Sherman tanks and over 150,000 of their own planes. I've read Raeder couldn't believer the number of submarines the US was building in the midst of a full fleet expansion. What is even more impressive is the logistics to keep everything going. Britain for example has a number of estuaries, the industrial base is never very far from the shipyards generally. While US industry was still concentrated on the Easst Coast, overall, it was spread all over the country.
Yamamoto was one of the few on the other side that realized US capacity. Unfortunately, he went with the Army's folly, and it cost him not only his navy but his life as well.
My thoughts,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 7, 2020 12:08:23 GMT
Loved to see the carrier chart in the clip, never realized it took the Japanese until 1944 when they had replaced their carriers they lost in Midway while the United States had build in the 2 digits. The industrial capacity of the Untied States at the time was massive, and many have trouble getting their minds around just how big it was. As I recall, in 1942, the US opened 27 shipyards in California alone. By the end of the war the US Navy was larger than every other navy in the world combined. The US Navy alone had built over 70,000 aircraft during the war. And all this while the Army was building nearly 50,000 Sherman tanks and over 150,000 of their own planes. I've read Raeder couldn't believer the number of submarines the US was building in the midst of a full fleet expansion. What is even more impressive is the logistics to keep everything going. Britain for example has a number of estuaries, the industrial base is never very far from the shipyards generally. While US industry was still concentrated on the Easst Coast, overall, it was spread all over the country.
Yamamoto was one of the few on the other side that realized US capacity. Unfortunately, he went with the Army's folly, and it cost him not only his navy but his life as well. My thoughts, This is also a good site to see just how badly the Japanese Naval and Merchant Shipping Losses during World War II by All Causes where. But back to topic, would the United States fleet of December 7th 1941 present in Pearl Harbor if warned on time and going to sea to fight the Japanese, have manged to survive. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 7, 2020 12:38:58 GMT
Seems that what i found on the net and about a an alternative plan which did include for the invasion and occupation of Hawaii was presented by Professor John J. Stephan in his book Hawaii under the Rising Sun: Japan's Plans for Conquest after Pearl Harbor (1984) which says: The aims of Japan's Midway Operation (Operation AF) were not limited to tricking the US carriers into a destructive engagment and occupation of Midway. The attack and eventual occupation of Midway was intended to be the first stage of a larger plan that would end in a major Japanese attack on Hawaii. After securing Midway, the next step was to be the occupation of America's Johnston Island, south-west of Pearl Harbor, and then establish bases on the big island of Hawaii. Once those air and naval footholds were established, Japan intended to launch air and naval attacks on Oahu from those bases, the so Eastern Operation. Stephan states that achieving this objective offered the best prospect of drawing the United States into peace talks leading to recognition of Japan's claim to domination of the western Pacific region and save Japan from a prolonged and disastrous war.
I've long considered the 'taking' of Hawaii more, in business terms, a 'stretch' goal, bordering on fantasy. The Japanese logistics and manpower would have to come from somewhere, and where were they going to get it. And we have to remember, histoircally, the IJN crossed the International Dateline twice; once for Pearl Harbor, a success, and once for Midway, and abject failure.
All that said, I just posted this over on the BC board, and Jon Parshall does mention Hawaii as part of a negotiated settlement strategy:
Regards.
Very interesting, thanks for that. Mr Parshall doesn't mention that even if the Japanese had totally crushed the US CVs at Midway and then taken the island - which is far from certain - how difficult if not impossible it would have been for them to seriously invade Hawaii but that the Japanese were still thinking of such an operation as being possible shows how delusional even Yamamoto who is normally seen as one of the more knowledgeable Japanese military figures was by this stage.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 7, 2020 17:15:41 GMT
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 7, 2020 17:16:47 GMT
Unless the warning specifically has the location of the Japanese, I think the USN sorties west or southwest from Pearl. They'll be over the horizon shortly, and if the Japanese show up with an empty harbor, how much fuel do they have for a search?
Even if they are engaged at sea, how are the Japanese torpedo plane aviators going to avoid the historic over-concentration that plagued their torpedo attacks against Battleship Row? And all the ships are going to be closed up, all water tight doors closed, and manned and ready for an anti-aircraft action. In addition, Fuchida's Kate level bombers, carrying converted battleship shells are going to be completely ineffective against maneuvering ships. He will be lucky to get a hit, which means no Arizona-like explosion. If the USN at sea is engaged, what do the planes tasked with reducing the airfields do? Do they continue with their mission, splitting the attacking force? The Japanese might lose far more aircraft and aviators than the historic attack cost.
Let's also remember that the Kido Butai never torpedoed a battleship at sea. The best they did against US battleships was hitting South Dakota with a bomb at Santa Cruz. Prince of Wales and Repulse were not attacked by the Kido Butai, and Maryland and Pennsylvania were at anchor when torpedoed. And the former was torpedoed by a G4M Betty, so that wasn't the Kido Butai either. The only US battleship torpedoed at sea was North Carolina, and that was accomplished by a submarine.
My thoughts, |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 7, 2020 17:20:14 GMT
Unless the warning specifically has the location of the Japanese, I think the USN sorties west or southwest from Pearl. They'll be over the horizon shortly, and if the Japanese show up with an empty harbor, how much fuel do they have for a search?
Even if they are engaged at sea, how are the Japanese torpedo plane aviators going to avoid the historic over-concentration that plagued their torpedo attacks against Battleship Row? And all the ships are going to be closed up, all water tight doors closed, and manned and ready for an anti-aircraft action. In addition, Fuchida's Kate level bombers, carrying converted battleship shells are going to be completely ineffective against maneuvering ships. He will be lucky to get a hit, which means no Arizona-like explosion. If the USN at sea is engaged, what do the planes tasked with reducing the airfields do? Do they continue with their mission, splitting the attacking force? The Japanese might lose far more aircraft and aviators than the historic attack cost. Let's also remember that the Kido Butai never torpedoed a battleship at sea. The best they did against US battleships was hitting South Dakota with a bomb at Santa Cruz. Prince of Wales and Repulse were not attacked by the Kido Butai, and Maryland and Pennsylvania were at anchor when torpedoed. And the former was torpedoed by a G4M Betty, so that wasn't the Kido Butai either. The only US battleship torpedoed at sea was North Carolina, and that was accomplished by a submarine.
My thoughts, So was US intelligence correct in 1942 about the Japanese carriers and battleships, i know for sure the Germans did not have a carrier called Deutschland ore Graf Zeppelin in service, otherwise they might have joined Bismarck on its fetal journey. |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 7, 2020 17:21:41 GMT
Very interesting, thanks for that. Mr Parshall doesn't mention that even if the Japanese had totally crushed the US CVs at Midway and then taken the island - which is far from certain - how difficult if not impossible it would have been for them to seriously invade Hawaii but that the Japanese were still thinking of such an operation as being possible shows how delusional even Yamamoto who is normally seen as one of the more knowledgeable Japanese military figures was by this stage.
Steve
Steve,
Consider the logistics of simply holding Midway. How many Japanese Freighters and tankers are going to be lost to US submarines just trying to supply the garrison there? And how many planes will be needed, when the island will undoubtedly be subject to daily visits from Hawaii based B-17s? Even with defective torpedoes, US subs will have a field day against Japanese logistics. If Japan takes Hawaii, it gets even worse because the supplies have to travel farther and are closer to US West Coast based submarines.
My thoughts,
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 7, 2020 17:23:45 GMT
Before Coral Sea as well Lexington is still in the US Order of Battle....
Regards,
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