stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 15, 2019 12:31:39 GMT
You might but the RN, once it learns how pointless they are, will want something that adds to the fighting ability rather than something that is largely unless and potentially dangerous to the ship. IIRC they have relatively little armour - or none at all possibly - between each of those guns on each side. As such a hit on one can set off a chain reaction or at least see the blast from the hit sweep through several mounts with a lot of deaths and destruction.
Going back to the hull counted casement guns removed, Tiger would look like this i guess.
Probably something like that although if re-engined in the 30's say with more modern machinery she would probably lose a funnel or possibly two. She will have some secondaries to replace the lost casements but they would be mounted on the main deck level, probably in turrets but possibly just with shields depending on the date of the main/last reconstruction.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 17, 2019 4:54:05 GMT
Going back to the hull counted casement guns removed, Tiger would look like this i guess. Probably something like that although if re-engined in the 30's say with more modern machinery she would probably lose a funnel or possibly two. She will have some secondaries to replace the lost casements but they would be mounted on the main deck level, probably in turrets but possibly just with shields depending on the date of the main/last reconstruction.
Would Tiger and Hood working together be able to go head to head with Bismarck during their first engagement that sank Hood in OTL.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 17, 2019 11:08:07 GMT
Probably something like that although if re-engined in the 30's say with more modern machinery she would probably lose a funnel or possibly two. She will have some secondaries to replace the lost casements but they would be mounted on the main deck level, probably in turrets but possibly just with shields depending on the date of the main/last reconstruction.
Would Tiger and Hood working together be able to go head to head with Bismarck during their first engagement that sank Hood in OTL.
If both were upgraded then yes they would have a good chance. Without a major increase in its armour Tiger would still be vulnerable to 15" shells but if Hood avoided the hit that destroyed her - either through armour upgrades or sheer chance as by some measures it was very bad luck - then with it in the lead and likely to attract the bulk of Bismarck's attention you could see Bismarck disabled fairly quickly and if it takes a hit that reduces its speed it would be unlikely to escape.
If neither were seriously upgraded in terms of armour it could be a very bad day for the RN!
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 17, 2019 15:51:39 GMT
Would Tiger and Hood working together be able to go head to head with Bismarck during their first engagement that sank Hood in OTL. If both were upgraded then yes they would have a good chance. Without a major increase in its armour Tiger would still be vulnerable to 15" shells but if Hood avoided the hit that destroyed her - either through armour upgrades or sheer chance as by some measures it was very bad luck - then with it in the lead and likely to attract the bulk of Bismarck's attention you could see Bismarck disabled fairly quickly and if it takes a hit that reduces its speed it would be unlikely to escape. If neither were seriously upgraded in terms of armour it could be a very bad day for the RN! Well if Tiger is back in service in 1940, could Hood then not go into dock for here major upgrade, this could mean Tiger would have to face of with Bismarck instead of OTL Hood.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 18, 2019 18:56:22 GMT
If both were upgraded then yes they would have a good chance. Without a major increase in its armour Tiger would still be vulnerable to 15" shells but if Hood avoided the hit that destroyed her - either through armour upgrades or sheer chance as by some measures it was very bad luck - then with it in the lead and likely to attract the bulk of Bismarck's attention you could see Bismarck disabled fairly quickly and if it takes a hit that reduces its speed it would be unlikely to escape. If neither were seriously upgraded in terms of armour it could be a very bad day for the RN! Well if Tiger is back in service in 1940, could Hood then not go into dock for here major upgrade, this could mean Tiger would have to face of with Bismarck instead of OTL Hood.
If its a fully modernised Tiger and a not yet worked up Prince of Wales then a lot would depend on the defences of the Tiger and that old battle winner luck. Tiger could go the way of Hood or come through and Bismarck goes down in Denmark Straits.
Although I suspect that if Tiger was re-entering service in 1940, with the war on even if before the sudden collapse of France it would be deemed to be too late for Hood to start a major rebuild. Think this would only occur if Hood started such a programme before WWII started and probably before the occupation of the rump Czech state in 1939 as war would be seen as too likely. What it really needs is a different order for such rebuilds with the fast ships - Renown, Repulse, Tiger [in this case] and Hood before things reached crisis point.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 5, 2020 19:57:48 GMT
Well if Tiger is back in service in 1940, could Hood then not go into dock for here major upgrade, this could mean Tiger would have to face of with Bismarck instead of OTL Hood. If its a fully modernised Tiger and a not yet worked up Prince of Wales then a lot would depend on the defences of the Tiger and that old battle winner luck. Tiger could go the way of Hood or come through and Bismarck goes down in Denmark Straits.
Although I suspect that if Tiger was re-entering service in 1940, with the war on even if before the sudden collapse of France it would be deemed to be too late for Hood to start a major rebuild. Think this would only occur if Hood started such a programme before WWII started and probably before the occupation of the rump Czech state in 1939 as war would be seen as too likely. What it really needs is a different order for such rebuilds with the fast ships - Renown, Repulse, Tiger [in this case] and Hood before things reached crisis point.
Would Tiger be a good choice to send to Asia.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 5, 2020 20:20:56 GMT
If its a fully modernised Tiger and a not yet worked up Prince of Wales then a lot would depend on the defences of the Tiger and that old battle winner luck. Tiger could go the way of Hood or come through and Bismarck goes down in Denmark Straits.
Although I suspect that if Tiger was re-entering service in 1940, with the war on even if before the sudden collapse of France it would be deemed to be too late for Hood to start a major rebuild. Think this would only occur if Hood started such a programme before WWII started and probably before the occupation of the rump Czech state in 1939 as war would be seen as too likely. What it really needs is a different order for such rebuilds with the fast ships - Renown, Repulse, Tiger [in this case] and Hood before things reached crisis point.
Would Tiger be a good choice to send to Asia.
Well its fast which would give it strategic mobility and if its been fully modified it would have a decent AA suite hopefully. Hence its possible although a lot would depend on where the German heavy raiders, i.e. the assorted cruisers/pocket battleships and the twins were as their an existing, known threat rather than a potential one. If its present and not too many butterflies it might be a 3rd major ship in Force Z although how things develop from there would depend heavily on luck.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 5, 2020 20:23:45 GMT
Would Tiger be a good choice to send to Asia. Well its fast which would give it strategic mobility and if its been fully modified it would have a decent AA suite hopefully. Hence its possible although a lot would depend on where the German heavy raiders, i.e. the assorted cruisers/pocket battleships and the twins were as their an existing, known threat rather than a potential one. If its present and not too many butterflies it might be a 3rd major ship in Force Z although how things develop from there would depend heavily on luck.
If it becomes the 3rd ship in Force Z, then it will also be sunk like the other two i think.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 6, 2020 11:17:26 GMT
Well its fast which would give it strategic mobility and if its been fully modified it would have a decent AA suite hopefully. Hence its possible although a lot would depend on where the German heavy raiders, i.e. the assorted cruisers/pocket battleships and the twins were as their an existing, known threat rather than a potential one. If its present and not too many butterflies it might be a 3rd major ship in Force Z although how things develop from there would depend heavily on luck.
If it becomes the 3rd ship in Force Z, then it will also be sunk like the other two i think.
There is a danger but a 3rd ship might cause no end of butterflies. But for an unwise diversion to check out a [false] report of a Japanese landing in Malaya Force Z would have avoided destruction, at least at that point, simply because it would have been beyond the search range of the Japanese a/c. Or the early hit on the PoW which crippled it so badly - possibly greatly worsened by an unwise decision to turn the turbine back on - doesn't occur. In which case the Japanese could get a few hits, damaging especially the PoW as the primary target but still leaving it afloat and the others largely undamaged.
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Feb 6, 2020 14:03:45 GMT
Coming from Avalanche Press comes the nice article called, lets build a Better TigerWhat If: Lets build a better HMS TigerThe British battle cruiser Tiger, one of the Royal Navy’s most beautiful ships despite a rather mediocre fighting record. She would eventually be discarded and scrapped, but this was not a certain outcome. Tiger 'what ifs' are a great topic. Over on the BC board, our BC Renown had speculated on a continuation of the Tiger class during the Great War, with ships for the RCN. The design was improved by using small tube boilers, which BC Renown visualized as having two funnels: img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/BCRenown/Never%20Weres/od-Lynx.pngHopefully that image will be clear on BC Renown's photobucket; hot-linking provides only their now-blurred image. In the early days of Bob Henneman's BC forum (ez-board, before Yuku and tapatalk), we had several conversations on a rebuilt Tiger in World War 2. I've even published some naval fiction on the Waships1/NavWeaps Fiction board (now long gone, also in the ez-board days). BC Renown visualized some of that past speculation with these; img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/BCRenown/Never%20Weres/nw-Tiger-Rebuild-1.pngAgain, I hope that image can be viewed and is clear. She would have been a great asset for the RN in World War 2. especially with a full rebuild like Renown got. ( Tiger was refitted before her last service, covering a refit for Hood. So she could have gone into the yards for rebuild with Renown... A modern AA suite like Renown would have made her an ideal carrier escort. In addition, there were a number of ships she could have matched or outgunned, including the panzarshciff, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, the Italian rebuilds and the Kongos among capital ships. She would have had much more use than any R class, especially Revenge with her machinery limitations (18 knots, IIRC) Thinking of the operational lives of the R class, they were clearly in the front line during the first half of the RN's war, including Calabria, Spartivento, Operation Catapult, the Bismarck chase, Sommerville's Eastern Fleet and Operations Menace and Ironclad. With her greater speed, Tiger would have been an asset in any of those. My thoughts,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 6, 2020 18:13:10 GMT
I always wondered if having a catapult (i think that is one) atop a aft turret is a good idea.
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Feb 6, 2020 18:44:21 GMT
I always wondered if having a catapult (i think that is one) atop a aft turret is a good idea. I think it is. It's minimal risk traded for aviation capability. In the case of the prewar US Standards, redundancy. Planes stored on the catapult on a turret top are further out of the seaway, less subject to spray. Also, they would be de-fueled before storage, so there is no (or minimal) fire risk. BC Renown's idea was to give Tiger an indigenous scouting capability. Ships with unique layouts like Tiger the Ganguts or an en echelon arrangement have limited deck space for such things, so turret tops become valuable real estate. Incidentally, the US Standards' catapult atop Man Battery Turret 3 was angled, to provide length without interfering with guns or sighting. See the plan of California below: Regards,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 6, 2020 18:47:04 GMT
Also, they would be de-fueled before storage, Regards, What about in combat, and also can the turrets fire with a plane sitting atop of them.
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Feb 6, 2020 18:56:18 GMT
What about in combat, and also can the turrets fire with a plane sitting atop of them. I believe they could. Blast from the turret itself would be minimal. Blast from surrounding turrets might be more stressful on the airframe. In combat, it is more likely thought that the aircraft will be aloft, providing spotting/scouting. My thoughts,
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