stevep
Fleet admiral
Member is Online
Posts: 24,839 
Likes: 13,226
|
Post by stevep on Jul 11, 2020 9:11:46 GMT
'United States Force Korea To 1950'.
Before or during the war? If the former then a hell of a shock to everybody. Also probably easily able to destroy an attacking N Korean force while their munitions last.
If during it would depend on what stage in 1950. They could end up behind N Korean lines, in the midst of the battle or behind friendly lines in the period between the Inchon landings and the Chinese intervention.
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Jul 11, 2020 20:16:26 GMT
'United States Force Korea To 1950'.
Before or during the war? If the former then a hell of a shock to everybody. Also probably easily able to destroy an attacking N Korean force while their munitions last.
If during it would depend on what stage in 1950. They could end up behind N Korean lines, in the midst of the battle or behind friendly lines in the period between the Inchon landings and the Chinese intervention.
I think we should send them to June 1st of that year. Which leaves them a few weeks to adjust, and perhaps also to dissuade the North Koreans from storming across the border (though their ultimately success in that attempt given the other grand geopolitical designs at play is...probably unlikely, I'd think).
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Member is Online
Posts: 24,839
Likes: 13,226
|
Post by stevep on Jul 12, 2020 10:12:20 GMT
Before or during the war? If the former then a hell of a shock to everybody. Also probably easily able to destroy an attacking N Korean force while their munitions last.
If during it would depend on what stage in 1950. They could end up behind N Korean lines, in the midst of the battle or behind friendly lines in the period between the Inchon landings and the Chinese intervention.
I think we should send them to June 1st of that year. Which leaves them a few weeks to adjust, and perhaps also to dissuade the North Koreans from storming across the border (though their ultimately success in that attempt given the other grand geopolitical designs at play is...probably unlikely, I'd think).
OK that sounds about right. The sudden appearance of powerful US forces, let alone that their claiming to come from the future is going to cause massive confusion and consternation to everybody. The 1st Kim might be rash enough to seek to take advantage of that to still attack, possibly thinking if he doesn't do it now he will have no chance. Or he might show some caution or be restrained by a worried Stalin. Probably the former but if so things are likely to go very poorly for the north, although whether the up-timers will support an invasion of the north given their limited resources and what they know about the Chinese reaction OTL.
Stalin will of course claim the sudden appearance of US forces in S Korea is a provocation and suggest that an attack on the north is planned and if the north doesn't actually attack I can see either Soviet or Chinese [or both] units moving into the north for defensive purposes. If he learns enough about what goes on, but may not in time, then the Soviets won't boycott the UN which means they will be able to veto any UN declarations opposing a northern invasion. Which would mean rather than a UN banner it would be a clearly US lead coalition coming to the aid of the south if there is a conflict.
One thing we haven't touched upon of course will be the cultural shock that the up-timers will bring. As well as weaponry and technology their information about the future world, the rise of China, collapse of the USSR and decline of the US and also things like an integrated military including women and homosexuals as well as blacks will be something that will cause problems.
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Jul 12, 2020 14:06:49 GMT
'1900 People Adopt 2000 Culture And Social Norms'.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Member is Online
Posts: 24,839
Likes: 13,226
|
Post by stevep on Jul 12, 2020 14:27:38 GMT
'1900 People Adopt 2000 Culture And Social Norms'.
That would be interesting to put it mildly. Do you mean that they adopt the norms of their state - or as near as it exists - in 2000? Some cases might not be much difference, such as Putin's Russia being a right wing autocratic state. However Germany for instance would be massively different and Britain, despite ~20 years of Thatcherism would still be a lot more equal and democratic than its 1900 version. The US would have a lot more turmoil about race and other issues but more support for reform so it would depend on how things develop there. Not sure what the situation would be with colonial empires as the home countries would largely want to get rid of the colonies as rapidly as possible, both for moral reasons and because they were seen as resource sinks in the vast majority of cases.
Probably no military build up in Europe and a considerable peace dividend depending on what happens to Russia. [Thinking about it does this mean that many areas of the 1900 empire are now ridden with demands for independence? Eastern Poland, Ukraine, Finland, Central Asia etc. That could make things very messy there plus in what was the Hapsburg empire.]
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Jul 12, 2020 14:42:33 GMT
'1900 People Adopt 2000 Culture And Social Norms'.
That would be interesting to put it mildly. Do you mean that they adopt the norms of their state - or as near as it exists - in 2000? Some cases might not be much difference, such as Putin's Russia being a right wing autocratic state. However Germany for instance would be massively different and Britain, despite ~20 years of Thatcherism would still be a lot more equal and democratic than its 1900 version. The US would have a lot more turmoil about race and other issues but more support for reform so it would depend on how things develop there. Not sure what the situation would be with colonial empires as the home countries would largely want to get rid of the colonies as rapidly as possible, both for moral reasons and because they were seen as resource sinks in the vast majority of cases.
Probably no military build up in Europe and a considerable peace dividend depending on what happens to Russia. [Thinking about it does this mean that many areas of the 1900 empire are now ridden with demands for independence? Eastern Poland, Ukraine, Finland, Central Asia etc. That could make things very messy there plus in what was the Hapsburg empire.]
That's a good point. With that in mind, the idea is that everyone suddenly adopts the social outlooks and values of 2000 people, though that obviously varies from nation to nation (as you've pointed out). Even though it'd still be more privy to authoritarian strongmen, I don't know that Russia would experience 'little change', considering that it's a feudal backwater rather than a modernized power like the Western powers. As such, I'm guessing that with Nicholas II having had an 'overnight awakening', he'll push for nominal democratic reform and industrialization to catch Russia up with the rest of the world. Perhaps he'd grant Eastern Europe and other lands controlled by the empire independence that begins in a few years' time so they can all adapt to the sudden one-eighty in culture, though they may just become puppet states due to my suspicion that his promises won't be made in, you know, entirely good faith.
Similarly, the US would also pass civil rights legislation without substantial opposition (due to how the general population has now abandoned its bigotry, by and large). Though, I'm wondering if it might be mostly redundant due to how businesses and other public accommodations would open up to nonwhite customers and start treating nonwhite workers with equal dignity anyways. There will, unfortunately, be outliers whose actions need be 'corrected', however.
I expect Great Britain proper to enact much the same changes, but as I said before, I'm wondering if they'd opt for a gradual decolonization that doesn't cut all of their possessions loose at once? That, I think, would cause chaos as certain territories devolve similar to their OTL fate (albeit in a form adapted for 1900 geopolitics). Other European powers like France and Germany would no doubt have those concerns as well, and would likely pursue a broadly cognate course of action accordingly.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Member is Online
Posts: 24,839
Likes: 13,226
|
Post by stevep on Jul 13, 2020 12:09:29 GMT
That would be interesting to put it mildly. Do you mean that they adopt the norms of their state - or as near as it exists - in 2000? Some cases might not be much difference, such as Putin's Russia being a right wing autocratic state. However Germany for instance would be massively different and Britain, despite ~20 years of Thatcherism would still be a lot more equal and democratic than its 1900 version. The US would have a lot more turmoil about race and other issues but more support for reform so it would depend on how things develop there. Not sure what the situation would be with colonial empires as the home countries would largely want to get rid of the colonies as rapidly as possible, both for moral reasons and because they were seen as resource sinks in the vast majority of cases.
Probably no military build up in Europe and a considerable peace dividend depending on what happens to Russia. [Thinking about it does this mean that many areas of the 1900 empire are now ridden with demands for independence? Eastern Poland, Ukraine, Finland, Central Asia etc. That could make things very messy there plus in what was the Hapsburg empire.]
That's a good point. With that in mind, the idea is that everyone suddenly adopts the social outlooks and values of 2000 people, though that obviously varies from nation to nation (as you've pointed out). Even though it'd still be more privy to authoritarian strongmen, I don't know that Russia would experience 'little change', considering that it's a feudal backwater rather than a modernized power like the Western powers. As such, I'm guessing that with Nicholas II having had an 'overnight awakening', he'll push for nominal democratic reform and industrialization to catch Russia up with the rest of the world. Perhaps he'd grant Eastern Europe and other lands controlled by the empire independence that begins in a few years' time so they can all adapt to the sudden one-eighty in culture, though they may just become puppet states due to my suspicion that his promises won't be made in, you know, entirely good faith.
Similarly, the US would also pass civil rights legislation without substantial opposition (due to how the general population has now abandoned its bigotry, by and large). Though, I'm wondering if it might be mostly redundant due to how businesses and other public accommodations would open up to nonwhite customers and start treating nonwhite workers with equal dignity anyways. There will, unfortunately, be outliers whose actions need be 'corrected', however.
I expect Great Britain proper to enact much the same changes, but as I said before, I'm wondering if they'd opt for a gradual decolonization that doesn't cut all of their possessions loose at once? That, I think, would cause chaos as certain territories devolve similar to their OTL fate (albeit in a form adapted for 1900 geopolitics). Other European powers like France and Germany would no doubt have those concerns as well, and would likely pursue a broadly cognate course of action accordingly.
The reason I was thinking little change in Russia was that I was assuming the mentality and world view of the 1900 dominant elite, of autocratic monarchy and aristocracy would be replaced by the 2000 dominant elite of corrupt oligarchy. Basically Nickolas II would become Putin so there would be little change in the desire to maintain his rule. Albeit that the trapping of power and outer forms of how the elite seeks to control it would change.
Yes probably there would be some desire for a slower decolonisation, especially since other than India or some cases such as Egypt which aren't formal colonies there's little no local government other than traditional tribal chiefs. However you would have the bulk of the non-white population wanting independence very quickly.
One factor at this date is that Australia, New Zealand and S Africa haven't achieved dominion status yet and there is the tail end of the Boer War going on in the latter with the harder line units engaged in a guerilla resistance so technically their all colonies although apart from S Africa that's going to be fairly easy to resolve.
A nasty thought if 1900 Iran is now a reactionary Islamic state and what will happen in Korea, a de factor Japanese colony? Is it going to be replaced in the north by a Kim type dictatorship? Also going to be interesting if an autocratic but highly malfunctioning Chinese empire is replaced by an even more autocratic but far more organised CCP ruled state? Coupled with the extensive foreign interests in China at the time and that the Boxer uprising was in its latter stages so that would complicate matters.
Steve
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Jul 13, 2020 13:13:08 GMT
‘Napoleonic Europe With WW2 Technology, Tactics And Industrial Capacity’.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Member is Online
Posts: 24,839
Likes: 13,226
|
Post by stevep on Jul 13, 2020 14:56:16 GMT
‘Napoleonic Europe With WW2 Technology, Tactics And Industrial Capacity’.
Would that be technology as in their WWII capacities, i.e. German states, Britain and Russia being the primary industrial centres or as in the Napoleonic times with Britain becoming the biggest industrial power by a long way and Napoleonic France, especially its Belgium provinces being the closest to it in industrial strength?
If the former then Russia is going to be the primary industrial power in a relatively short period and could steamroller much of Europe if the Czars get their acts together. If the 2nd then Britain is going to again be the primary opponent of Napoleon's bid for supreme power in Europe.
What happens in the rest of the world? If their updated as well the US and Japan will also have significant industrial capacity which would complicate matters. Also in such a case would the US still be basically limited to its east coast areas with regions such as the 'old NW' still largely under Indian control.
Also the exact date would matter as it would affect the political alignment of Spain and Russia especially and also the borders and material state of France. After 1812 its still bloody large but increasingly drained of both resources and morale.
Of course the status of Germany and central Europe also matters as neither Germany nor Italy exist as states at this point and Austria is for the 1st part of the period the primary power in each area. Plus you would have a huge but somewhat backwards Ottoman empire with de-jura control over Egypt and most of the ME and Balkans. Which raises the question of how much is infrastructure upgraded? Especially do the Suez and Panama canals exist yet? I would assume not as that would greatly complicate matters.
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Jul 14, 2020 18:36:43 GMT
‘Napoleonic Europe With WW2 Technology, Tactics And Industrial Capacity’.
Would that be technology as in their WWII capacities, i.e. German states, Britain and Russia being the primary industrial centres or as in the Napoleonic times with Britain becoming the biggest industrial power by a long way and Napoleonic France, especially its Belgium provinces being the closest to it in industrial strength?
If the former then Russia is going to be the primary industrial power in a relatively short period and could steamroller much of Europe if the Czars get their acts together. If the 2nd then Britain is going to again be the primary opponent of Napoleon's bid for supreme power in Europe.
What happens in the rest of the world? If their updated as well the US and Japan will also have significant industrial capacity which would complicate matters. Also in such a case would the US still be basically limited to its east coast areas with regions such as the 'old NW' still largely under Indian control.
Also the exact date would matter as it would affect the political alignment of Spain and Russia especially and also the borders and material state of France. After 1812 its still bloody large but increasingly drained of both resources and morale.
Of course the status of Germany and central Europe also matters as neither Germany nor Italy exist as states at this point and Austria is for the 1st part of the period the primary power in each area. Plus you would have a huge but somewhat backwards Ottoman empire with de-jura control over Egypt and most of the ME and Balkans. Which raises the question of how much is infrastructure upgraded? Especially do the Suez and Panama canals exist yet? I would assume not as that would greatly complicate matters.
That's a good question. I suppose that for those cohesive nation-states that actually exist at this time, they receive their WW2-era technological capacities, with the US being a likely exception due to its much smaller territorial extent. As such, maybe America just sports industrial capabilities roughly equivalent to that of 1940s New England and the easternmost South, minus Florida. Due to the fact that they're not united political entities yet, the likes of Germany and Italy remain should probably as they are (which, unfortunately for them, only reduces their standing relative to the newly bolstered mainline powers of Europe).
As for the exact date the PoD starts, maybe in May 1803 (in accordance with when the Treaty of Amiens expired)? |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Member is Online
Posts: 24,839
Likes: 13,226
|
Post by stevep on Jul 15, 2020 10:22:08 GMT
Would that be technology as in their WWII capacities, i.e. German states, Britain and Russia being the primary industrial centres or as in the Napoleonic times with Britain becoming the biggest industrial power by a long way and Napoleonic France, especially its Belgium provinces being the closest to it in industrial strength?
If the former then Russia is going to be the primary industrial power in a relatively short period and could steamroller much of Europe if the Czars get their acts together. If the 2nd then Britain is going to again be the primary opponent of Napoleon's bid for supreme power in Europe.
What happens in the rest of the world? If their updated as well the US and Japan will also have significant industrial capacity which would complicate matters. Also in such a case would the US still be basically limited to its east coast areas with regions such as the 'old NW' still largely under Indian control.
Also the exact date would matter as it would affect the political alignment of Spain and Russia especially and also the borders and material state of France. After 1812 its still bloody large but increasingly drained of both resources and morale.
Of course the status of Germany and central Europe also matters as neither Germany nor Italy exist as states at this point and Austria is for the 1st part of the period the primary power in each area. Plus you would have a huge but somewhat backwards Ottoman empire with de-jura control over Egypt and most of the ME and Balkans. Which raises the question of how much is infrastructure upgraded? Especially do the Suez and Panama canals exist yet? I would assume not as that would greatly complicate matters.
That's a good question. I suppose that for those cohesive nation-states that actually exist at this time, they receive their WW2-era technological capacities, with the US being a likely exception due to its much smaller territorial extent. As such, maybe America just sports industrial capabilities roughly equivalent to that of 1940s New England and the easternmost South, minus Florida. Due to the fact that they're not united political entities yet, the likes of Germany and Italy remain should probably as they are (which, unfortunately for them, only reduces their standing relative to the newly bolstered mainline powers of Europe).
As for the exact date the PoD starts, maybe in May 1803 (in accordance with when the Treaty of Amiens expired)?
OK thanks for clarifying. Russia and Austria would be the primary continental opponents to Napoleon although Prussia would have significant industrial capacity, especially around Berlin and in Silesia.
I get the feeling that France will be more like OTL WWII Germany, i.e. in having a readier application of the new technology just as revolutionary and then imperial France had a military edge. Britain will have a clear control of the sea although if you add in subs that's going to complicate matters. As would Japan and a more advanced even if much smaller US. The latter might seek a conquest spree, initially against its own native populations then either Britain or Spain, although it has just gained Louisiana from France. This says nothing of course about air power which would be a huge factor to throw into the equation.
China in 1803 was starting to decline but still I think the greatest economic power in the world, unified and very rich. It could also be a player even if only having its 1940 level of relative technology. Assuming its not lost much of its richest territories to Japan as no Japanese invasion here. Since Japan was still politically committed to isolationism that could reduce its role in the world plus it has no overseas empire but modern industry with its lack of coal and oil will cause it to open up either economically or militarily.
The other Asia giant, India is deeply divided at this point. Britain, via the EIC is becoming the dominant power but there are a number of the Maratha states as well as some Muslim rulers left over from the Mughal empire, such as Mysore as well as still a formal, if token Mughal emperor.
Steve
The Napoleonic wars are likely to shorter here simply because the lower populations won't be able to sustain the sort of bloodshed
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Jul 15, 2020 12:49:08 GMT
‘2012 US To 1812’. Without a doubt, it stops the British in their tracks. But does it intervene in Napoleonic Europe, I wonder?
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Member is Online
Posts: 24,839
Likes: 13,226
|
Post by stevep on Jul 16, 2020 10:01:18 GMT
‘2012 US To 1812’. Without a doubt, it stops the British in their tracks. But does it intervene in Napoleonic Europe, I wonder?
I would expect it would intervene wherever it could. Apart from any internal political issues its going to want to control a lot of the world simply because of its need for resources quickly. Not to mention the many social and moral issues that will emerge as there will understandable be a lot of woke culture events as you call them.
By stops British do you mean the Americans achieve their stated war aim of annexing Canada? Probably under those circumstances other parts of the British, Spanish and Portuguese empires as well to end black slavery in the western hemisphere. What they do with the rest of the world would be a big question as well.
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Jul 16, 2020 13:56:00 GMT
‘2012 US To 1812’. Without a doubt, it stops the British in their tracks. But does it intervene in Napoleonic Europe, I wonder?
I would expect it would intervene wherever it could. Apart from any internal political issues its going to want to control a lot of the world simply because of its need for resources quickly. Not to mention the many social and moral issues that will emerge as there will understandable be a lot of woke culture events as you call them.
By stops British do you mean the Americans achieve their stated war aim of annexing Canada? Probably under those circumstances other parts of the British, Spanish and Portuguese empires as well to end black slavery in the western hemisphere. What they do with the rest of the world would be a big question as well.
Well, 'wokeness' as we understand it doesn't seem to be a thing yet in 2012 (it gained traction during the late 2010s, if I recall correctly). Though, I suppose that anti-racism/sexism campaigns would pick up steam so long as the US has set out to stop the slave trade. Plus, annexing Canada may be the uptimers' best option for both replenish lost stores of resources and acting as the first major springboard to bring human rights to the rest of the world.
Perhaps as a secondary priority, the US might also put a stop to the Napoleonic Wars. Maybe it'd tell the European powers to make peace, and invite them to one of their military drills to show what happens if they don't. How they'd deal with Napoleon specifically, due to the fact that (presumably) more reasonable than Hitler a century later, I don't know. One thing's for certain, though: Great Britain will not reign supreme ITTL.
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Jul 17, 2020 15:56:48 GMT
'Old American West in Space'. Complete with enterprising star ships, asteroid-mining and minimal planetary authorities (though their earthly OTL counterparts drove the Native Americans further and further out, making the analogy rather imperfect).
|
|
