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Post by EwellHolmes on Mar 9, 2020 19:56:21 GMT
I'd like to see a citation about ROUND UP putting 48 divisions ashore; not even OVERLORD achieved that. epic, Maurice Matloff and Edwin Snell I think have it, but I can't find it in the US Army history. There is some good info on Roundup here history.army.mil/books/wwii/SP1941-42/index.htmspecifically in parts VIII and XIII. At one point it does say that 890,000 men would be in the UK for Roundup, and the assault force (which I take to be the initial assault) would be 77,000 men. At about 15,000 men in a division, 890,000 would be over 59 divisions. But nothing specific on numbers of divisions. '48' is a number I've seen bandied about at different times for Roundup. 1bigrich , Now that last definitely sounds interesting. Hopefully when its finished you would post it here please?
Those Italian rebuilds aren't a match for the IJN but are definitely more formidable than what the DEI had OTL. If Britain has a stronger Force Z, almost certainly in a Italy neutral position, and even more importantly more modern land and air forces in the defence of Malaya then the latter could well be far too tough for the Japanese, who can't commit more forces than OTL without abandoning some other operation, probably the invasion of Burma. Plus a surviving larger force Z coupled with the stronger Dutch colonial forces and whatever the USN can commit will be able to put up a much stronger fight against the IJN. If the latter throws the kitchen sink at it they will still win but possibly not in time to secure Java, let alone Sumatra. That in itself would pretty much doom the Japanese in SE Asia and also their war effort elsewhere. Steve
Steve, The tentative plan is for the Dutch to take the two Cesares, and they'll be named Makassar and Bali while the 1047 project get under way. They'll be modified with DP 4.7in/12cm Bofors secondaries for Dutch service. Britain will step in and buy the two Dorias mid-rebuild, to keep them out of others' hands. The RN will have them sail to the UK for completion once able to move under their own power. While not a match for a true capital ship, they can chase the Panzarschiffe and threaten Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. I'm thinking they'll be called Leopard and Monarch. Their range does limit them, but if the Dutch are keeping them in the NEI, and the British concentrating them on Scapa-Ireland-Halifax and/or Gibraltar, range shouldn't be an issue. I'll keep you posted when/if things progress... Regards all, Okay, so not 48 Divisions in the initial assault wave is my main contention, given OVERLORD only managed less than a dozen. Where, exactly, do these 48 divisions come from however? There was insufficient shipping and nowhere near amount that troops anyway available in the UK in 1943. |
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Post by EwellHolmes on May 5, 2020 18:00:28 GMT
When was that 10% occurring? In 1941 it has an impact on Barbarossa, although possibly not a massive one but I suspect with the initial small size of the DAK that such a figure would applied later, possibly after Torch greatly enlarged the N African campaign? As it was Rommel often relied on captured British vehicles to enable his operations.
Plus don't forget the majority of the non-railway supply for the German army, especially as the war continued was by horse drawn wagons. This would be totally impractical in Libya so that theatre would always have a disproportionately larger part of the German motorised supply. Also if DAK doesn't got to N Africa, even with Churchill's delusional intervention in Greece, Libya isn't going to last very long and that hugely boost the western allied position in general and the British in particular. Especially if this was to occur in time for significant experienced forces to be switched east to safeguard Malaya and parts of DEI.
10% from virtually the get go, given the massive logistical requirements of the theater. This added to Army Group North means Leningrad likely falls in early September, as AGN can afford to detach 56th Mechanized Corps to deal with the Starya Russ offensive while maintaining the drive on the city. The thread topic is also Italy staying neutral, so I'm not sure what the rest of your post is about.  A "free" corps attached to Army Group North could be used to counter the Soviet 34th Army during the Staraya Russai offensive, keeping 4th Panzer free to continue advancing on Leningrad in August-September, when the defenses very nearly buckled even IOTL. Even better, 16th Army (German) would remain safe beyond the Volkhov River, preventing it from getting hit hard while over-extended during the Demanysk Pocket. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 5, 2020 18:02:35 GMT
10% from virtually the get go, given the massive logistical requirements of the theater. This added to Army Group North means Leningrad likely falls in early September, as AGN can afford to detach 56th Mechanized Corps to deal with the Starya Russ offensive while maintaining the drive on the city. The thread topic is also Italy staying neutral, so I'm not sure what the rest of your post is about. A "free" corps attached to Army Group North could be used to counter the Soviet 34th Army during the Staraya Russai offensive, keeping 4th Panzer free to continue advancing on Leningrad in August-September, when the defenses very nearly buckled even IOTL. Even better, 16th Army (German) would remain safe beyond the Volkhov River, preventing it from getting hit hard while over-extended during the Demanysk Pocket. A Free Corps, is that something like the Spanish Blue Division. |
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Post by EwellHolmes on May 5, 2020 18:04:04 GMT
A "free" corps attached to Army Group North could be used to counter the Soviet 34th Army during the Staraya Russai offensive, keeping 4th Panzer free to continue advancing on Leningrad in August-September, when the defenses very nearly buckled even IOTL. Even better, 16th Army (German) would remain safe beyond the Volkhov River, preventing it from getting hit hard while over-extended during the Demanysk Pocket. A Free Corps, is that something like the Spanish Blue Division. "Free" in the sense that it's an extra Corps compared to OTL; i.e. an additional one. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 5, 2020 18:06:07 GMT
A Free Corps, is that something like the Spanish Blue Division. "Free" in the sense that it's an extra Corps compared to OTL; i.e. an additional one. A i assumed because Italy stays out of the war, it would like Spain send volunteers to fight, seems i am wrong. |
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Post by EwellHolmes on May 5, 2020 18:08:55 GMT
"Free" in the sense that it's an extra Corps compared to OTL; i.e. an additional one. A i assumed because Italy stays out of the war, it would like Spain send volunteers to fight, seems i am wrong. You're fine, I wasn't clear. Basically like the forces that made up the Afrika Korps are used by Army Group North, as opposed to being used in North Africa like IOTL. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 6, 2020 9:50:39 GMT
10% from virtually the get go, given the massive logistical requirements of the theater. This added to Army Group North means Leningrad likely falls in early September, as AGN can afford to detach 56th Mechanized Corps to deal with the Starya Russ offensive while maintaining the drive on the city. The thread topic is also Italy staying neutral, so I'm not sure what the rest of your post is about. A "free" corps attached to Army Group North could be used to counter the Soviet 34th Army during the Staraya Russai offensive, keeping 4th Panzer free to continue advancing on Leningrad in August-September, when the defenses very nearly buckled even IOTL. Even better, 16th Army (German) would remain safe beyond the Volkhov River, preventing it from getting hit hard while over-extended during the Demanysk Pocket.
Yes I did diverge a bit on my last bit - too many TLs. Started off saying the DK consumed an excessive amount because of the circumstances of N Africa, which is accurate but as you point out with a truly neutral Italy then Libya is not an issue.
However you meed to have the extra 2 divs that the AK was at the time not only available but also in the right location. It might be in the north or it could be elsewhere.
Steve
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Post by EwellHolmes on May 6, 2020 20:02:29 GMT
A "free" corps attached to Army Group North could be used to counter the Soviet 34th Army during the Staraya Russai offensive, keeping 4th Panzer free to continue advancing on Leningrad in August-September, when the defenses very nearly buckled even IOTL. Even better, 16th Army (German) would remain safe beyond the Volkhov River, preventing it from getting hit hard while over-extended during the Demanysk Pocket.
Yes I did diverge a bit on my last bit - too many TLs. Started off saying the DK consumed an excessive amount because of the circumstances of N Africa, which is accurate but as you point out with a truly neutral Italy then Libya is not an issue.
However you meed to have the extra 2 divs that the AK was at the time not only available but also in the right location. It might be in the north or it could be elsewhere.
Steve
My assumption on their placement with AGN is due to AGC being overburdened and the various equipment issues that delayed AGS IOTL. They could go anywhere, of course, but I figure that's the most likely option. If they aren't, the lack of the Afrika Korps will still be a boon for the Germans given that frees up 10% of their truck fleet, enough to support a Panzer Army. This was due to the realities of the lack of railways in Libya IOTL, necessitating an abundance of truck transport; of note is that these trucks often went 1000 km or more, while in Russia the standard was 400 km. This would, I believe, be decisive, either in allowing AGS to conduct a better overall operation or by allowing AGC, in the critical period of August-September, to build up their logistics faster and thus allow the start of Operation Typhoon sooner. By Mid-October, Zhukov was noting he had just 90,000 men with no reserves defending the last line before the city, which solely held NKVD security detachments for use in destroying critical infrastructure and maintaining order, given the ongoing panic as the Soviet government was preparing to evacuate. |
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