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Post by EwellHolmes on Oct 20, 2019 12:48:03 GMT
My personal take on it is that surviving Vichy is one that has guys like Darlan in charge, with much of the state apparatus carry overs from the regime days. Given the intense threat of Communist elements and a U.S. willingness to support autocratic regimes during the Cold War as well as the historical example of the French Army's attempted coup in 1961, I wouldn't be surprised if you ended up with a Post-War France reminiscent of that in 1940-1942 in Vichy, or perhaps Rhee's South Korea in the 1950s.
Possible but doubtful. There was some recognition of the fascist regimes in Spain and Portugal but the were still kept at a distance until the dictators were gone and democracies in place.
Portugal was admitted into NATO and received Marshall Funding, by the 1950s Spain was a center of much American investment with a major U.S. military presence in the South that saw many military joint military exercises between the two. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 20, 2019 13:05:13 GMT
Possible but doubtful. There was some recognition of the fascist regimes in Spain and Portugal but the were still kept at a distance until the dictators were gone and democracies in place.
Portugal was admitted into NATO and received Marshall Funding, by the 1950s Spain was a center of much American investment with a major U.S. military presence in the South that saw many military joint military exercises between the two. Doubt the Free French are going to like a surviving Vichy France. |
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Post by EwellHolmes on Oct 20, 2019 13:23:56 GMT
Portugal was admitted into NATO and received Marshall Funding, by the 1950s Spain was a center of much American investment with a major U.S. military presence in the South that saw many military joint military exercises between the two. Doubt the Free French are going to like a surviving Vichy France. Probably not, but the Anglo-Americans didn't like the Free French either so the Vichy remnants have that going for them.  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 20, 2019 13:30:19 GMT
Doubt the Free French are going to like a surviving Vichy France. Probably not, but the Anglo-Americans didn't like the Free French either so the Vichy remnants have that going for them. What if Vichy France, Spain and Portugal formed a alliance, would that help. |
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Post by EwellHolmes on Oct 20, 2019 13:32:40 GMT
Probably not, but the Anglo-Americans didn't like the Free French either so the Vichy remnants have that going for them. What if Vichy France, Spain and Portugal formed a alliance, would that help. As Steve said, it kinda depends on what you mean by Vichy. The U.S. was perfectly willing to work with Darlan, who could be made head of the French contingent of the Allies. It's important to note, and I already alluded to it, that Vichy was moving to fight the Germans in late 1942. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 20, 2019 13:56:38 GMT
What if Vichy France, Spain and Portugal formed a alliance, would that help. As Steve said, it kinda depends on what you mean by Vichy. The U.S. was perfectly willing to work with Darlan, who could be made head of the French contingent of the Allies. It's important to note, and I already alluded to it, that Vichy was moving to fight the Germans in late 1942. Well what if Vichy France makes a deal with the Americans and British in 1942, in return of not being incorporated in the Free French, they will help the Allies in landings in South France instead of OTL Italy 1943. |
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Post by EwellHolmes on Oct 20, 2019 14:01:19 GMT
As Steve said, it kinda depends on what you mean by Vichy. The U.S. was perfectly willing to work with Darlan, who could be made head of the French contingent of the Allies. It's important to note, and I already alluded to it, that Vichy was moving to fight the Germans in late 1942. Well what if Vichy France makes a deal with the Americans and British in 1942, in return of not being incorporated in the Free French, they will help the Allies in landings in South France instead of OTL Italy 1943. Well, technically speaking, they had already gotten the first and the second was implicit with Darlan's defection. His assassination is pretty heavily suggested to have been either a Free French or British operation, given the Free French were up until then being kept a different command from the forces Darlan brought to the table. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 20, 2019 14:54:32 GMT
As Steve said, it kinda depends on what you mean by Vichy. The U.S. was perfectly willing to work with Darlan, who could be made head of the French contingent of the Allies. It's important to note, and I already alluded to it, that Vichy was moving to fight the Germans in late 1942. Well what if Vichy France makes a deal with the Americans and British in 1942, in return of not being incorporated in the Free French, they will help the Allies in landings in South France instead of OTL Italy 1943.
What Vichy? As soon as the allies landed in N Africa in Torch the Germans occupied Vichy to make sure it couldn't be used against them in such a method and Vichy was too weak militarily to do anything against this. You would need somehow the allies to invade FNA, Darlan to defect to them, probably taking a lot of the local troops with him, Vichy not opposing that and Germany not marching in as a result. The 1st happened, the 2nd might have but for both the 3rd and 4th to happen seems very unlikely verging on impossible. Even if it did any landings in S France would get a quick German response and Vichy simply didn't have the strength to oppose it before sufficient allied forces arrived.
There was some unrest by local forces in Tunisia about the Axis breaching the terms of the armistice in 42 by sending supplies via Tunisia and also sending some forces into that colony but not only was Vichy too weak politically it was too close to Germany to try and ditch it at this stage, at least for those regions such as N Africa that were effectively out of reach of German power.
Another issue, if this somehow came about is that an autocratic anti-democractic France would be a serious problem for the western powers, especially given it would strengthen the communist opposition inside France and be a propaganda gift to the Soviets.
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