mullauna
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Post by mullauna on Jul 30, 2019 21:28:50 GMT
stevep ZyobotMany in the Allied Powers were distinctly cool to De Gaulle and open to continuing to deal with Vichy. How does a surviving Vichy affect post-war France? On paper at least, the Old Marshal was legally appointed head of Government by President Lebrun but it was certainly not legal to abolish the Third Republic and impose an authoritarian regime. Even with Petain's war hero status, it will be very difficult for the post-war Vichy administration to establish any legitimacy.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 31, 2019 2:39:49 GMT
stevep ZyobotMany in the Allied Powers were distinctly cool to De Gaulle and open to continuing to deal with Vichy. How does a surviving Vichy affect post-war France? On paper at least, the Old Marshal was legally appointed head of Government by President Lebrun but it was certainly not legal to abolish the Third Republic and impose an authoritarian regime. Even with Petain's war hero status, it will be very difficult for the post-war Vichy administration to establish any legitimacy. It is nice that you create a thread mullauna, but do not ask for members to respond to a thread unless you are already in a discussion, it is not polite. |
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mullauna
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Post by mullauna on Jul 31, 2019 17:25:32 GMT
It's just I want them to know about my thread and so it doesn't get overlooked. I'm sorry. I'm not a bad person.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 31, 2019 17:34:34 GMT
It's just I want them to know about my thread and so it doesn't get overlooked. I'm sorry. I'm not a bad person. Sometimes threads are overlooked, we cannot force members to post in every thread, it is just not a polite thing to do. |
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Post by EwellHolmes on Oct 19, 2019 19:57:18 GMT
Prevent the Darlan assassination, and you've essentially got it.
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Post by lordroel on Oct 19, 2019 20:00:35 GMT
Prevent the Darlan assassination, and you've essentially got it. What about Vichy France declaring war on the United Kingdom after the british attack on mers-el-kebir. |
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Post by EwellHolmes on Oct 19, 2019 20:07:09 GMT
Prevent the Darlan assassination, and you've essentially got it. What about Vichy France declaring war on the United Kingdom after the british attack on mers-el-kebir. The Vichy never declared war on the UK, while Mers el Kebir wasn't as much of an issue by 1942; the U.S. was still recognizing them and that's what counts. I'll also add in that, by the time of Torch, Vichy was moving to fight the Germans with several tell tale deployments occurring. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 19, 2019 20:10:24 GMT
What about Vichy France declaring war on the United Kingdom after the british attack on mers-el-kebir. The Vichy never declared war on the UK, while Mers el Kebir wasn't as much of an issue by 1942; the U.S. was still recognizing them and that's what counts. I'll also add in that, by the time of Torch, Vichy was moving to fight the Germans with several tell tale deployments occurring. But if Vichy France did in 1940 declare war on the United kingdom, then we could see a Vichy France survive until 1944/45. |
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Post by EwellHolmes on Oct 20, 2019 1:23:19 GMT
The Vichy never declared war on the UK, while Mers el Kebir wasn't as much of an issue by 1942; the U.S. was still recognizing them and that's what counts. I'll also add in that, by the time of Torch, Vichy was moving to fight the Germans with several tell tale deployments occurring. But if Vichy France did in 1940 declare war on the United kingdom, then we could see a Vichy France survive until 1944/45. I'm really confused as to what you are arguing here? |
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Post by lordroel on Oct 20, 2019 6:55:43 GMT
But if Vichy France did in 1940 declare war on the United kingdom, then we could see a Vichy France survive until 1944/45. I'm really confused as to what you are arguing here? Sorry, my fault. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 20, 2019 11:35:15 GMT
Prevent the Darlan assassination, and you've essentially got it.
Not sure as Vichy was already being occupied by the Germans. If Darlan wasn't assassinated there is some evidence that the US favoured him rather than de Gaulle but if he was accepted as the leader of a Free French force how much relationship would that have to the now terminated and increasingly discredited Vichy regime. Even if Darlan emerges as the leader of post-war France he's highly unlikely to identify with the collaborationist regime. This post-war France might well be more right wing in a number of ways - especially if there's more pro-communists elements opposing it as a result - but its still going to be fundamentally democratic and clear anti-Jewish legistation will not be permitted for instance.
What you would need for a Vichy regime to survive would be for the US to continue to prefer it to the Free French as the government of France. Which means no Torch landings and a vastly different war in the Med. Also its going to be complex in 44 when allied forces land in northern France and difficult to see how a Vichy state could stay neutral in such a position. It could make a late jump to the allied side but even then much of the country including Paris would be in allied hands and they would need to maintain control to ensure their logistics. Possibly shortly after the war a Petain headed regime might win a general election but I would suspect it would be unlikely.
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Post by EwellHolmes on Oct 20, 2019 11:41:18 GMT
Prevent the Darlan assassination, and you've essentially got it.
Not sure as Vichy was already being occupied by the Germans. If Darlan wasn't assassinated there is some evidence that the US favoured him rather than de Gaulle but if he was accepted as the leader of a Free French force how much relationship would that have to the now terminated and increasingly discredited Vichy regime. Even if Darlan emerges as the leader of post-war France he's highly unlikely to identify with the collaborationist regime. This post-war France might well be more right wing in a number of ways - especially if there's more pro-communists elements opposing it as a result - but its still going to be fundamentally democratic and clear anti-Jewish legistation will not be permitted for instance.
What you would need for a Vichy regime to survive would be for the US to continue to prefer it to the Free French as the government of France. Which means no Torch landings and a vastly different war in the Med. Also its going to be complex in 44 when allied forces land in northern France and difficult to see how a Vichy state could stay neutral in such a position. It could make a late jump to the allied side but even then much of the country including Paris would be in allied hands and they would need to maintain control to ensure their logistics. Possibly shortly after the war a Petain headed regime might win a general election but I would suspect it would be unlikely.
Darlan brings apparatus of the Vichy State in North Africa in with him. The whole "collaborationist" thing didn't really count until after 1942, both in France and outside; it was popular up until that point within France and the U.S. continued to recognize it on the international stage. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 20, 2019 12:13:31 GMT
Not sure as Vichy was already being occupied by the Germans. If Darlan wasn't assassinated there is some evidence that the US favoured him rather than de Gaulle but if he was accepted as the leader of a Free French force how much relationship would that have to the now terminated and increasingly discredited Vichy regime. Even if Darlan emerges as the leader of post-war France he's highly unlikely to identify with the collaborationist regime. This post-war France might well be more right wing in a number of ways - especially if there's more pro-communists elements opposing it as a result - but its still going to be fundamentally democratic and clear anti-Jewish legistation will not be permitted for instance.
What you would need for a Vichy regime to survive would be for the US to continue to prefer it to the Free French as the government of France. Which means no Torch landings and a vastly different war in the Med. Also its going to be complex in 44 when allied forces land in northern France and difficult to see how a Vichy state could stay neutral in such a position. It could make a late jump to the allied side but even then much of the country including Paris would be in allied hands and they would need to maintain control to ensure their logistics. Possibly shortly after the war a Petain headed regime might win a general election but I would suspect it would be unlikely.
Darlan brings apparatus of the Vichy State in North Africa in with him. The whole "collaborationist" thing didn't really count until after 1942, both in France and outside; it was popular up until that point within France and the U.S. continued to recognize it on the international stage.
Yes with Vichy occupied those colonies still loyal to it will come over to the allies and probably under Darlan's leadership. However especially under Laval it had got fairly close to Hitler, not just in adapting a lot of repressionally policies. As such even if a surviving Darlan becomes the leader of France after the war, which might well happen, its not going to be under the Vichy label and he will probably want to detach himself from the label, as it will be too tainted. Yes Vichy was still popular until it was occupied by many in France but the occupation by the Germans and the fact the latter were defeated made it politically too poisonous post war.
It partly depends on what is meant by a surviving Vichy. Obviously the capital will move back to Paris. However any such government, even lead by a figure like Darlan, isn't going to have the same autocracy as Vichy and will seek to distant itself from links with the latter.
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Post by EwellHolmes on Oct 20, 2019 12:19:19 GMT
Darlan brings apparatus of the Vichy State in North Africa in with him. The whole "collaborationist" thing didn't really count until after 1942, both in France and outside; it was popular up until that point within France and the U.S. continued to recognize it on the international stage.
Yes with Vichy occupied those colonies still loyal to it will come over to the allies and probably under Darlan's leadership. However especially under Laval it had got fairly close to Hitler, not just in adapting a lot of repressionally policies. As such even if a surviving Darlan becomes the leader of France after the war, which might well happen, its not going to be under the Vichy label and he will probably want to detach himself from the label, as it will be too tainted. Yes Vichy was still popular until it was occupied by many in France but the occupation by the Germans and the fact the latter were defeated made it politically too poisonous post war.
It partly depends on what is meant by a surviving Vichy. Obviously the capital will move back to Paris. However any such government, even lead by a figure like Darlan, isn't going to have the same autocracy as Vichy and will seek to distant itself from links with the latter.
My personal take on it is that surviving Vichy is one that has guys like Darlan in charge, with much of the state apparatus carry overs from the regime days. Given the intense threat of Communist elements and a U.S. willingness to support autocratic regimes during the Cold War as well as the historical example of the French Army's attempted coup in 1961, I wouldn't be surprised if you ended up with a Post-War France reminiscent of that in 1940-1942 in Vichy, or perhaps Rhee's South Korea in the 1950s. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 20, 2019 12:28:00 GMT
Yes with Vichy occupied those colonies still loyal to it will come over to the allies and probably under Darlan's leadership. However especially under Laval it had got fairly close to Hitler, not just in adapting a lot of repressionally policies. As such even if a surviving Darlan becomes the leader of France after the war, which might well happen, its not going to be under the Vichy label and he will probably want to detach himself from the label, as it will be too tainted. Yes Vichy was still popular until it was occupied by many in France but the occupation by the Germans and the fact the latter were defeated made it politically too poisonous post war.
It partly depends on what is meant by a surviving Vichy. Obviously the capital will move back to Paris. However any such government, even lead by a figure like Darlan, isn't going to have the same autocracy as Vichy and will seek to distant itself from links with the latter.
My personal take on it is that surviving Vichy is one that has guys like Darlan in charge, with much of the state apparatus carry overs from the regime days. Given the intense threat of Communist elements and a U.S. willingness to support autocratic regimes during the Cold War as well as the historical example of the French Army's attempted coup in 1961, I wouldn't be surprised if you ended up with a Post-War France reminiscent of that in 1940-1942 in Vichy, or perhaps Rhee's South Korea in the 1950s.
Possible but doubtful. There was some recognition of the fascist regimes in Spain and Portugal but the were still kept at a distance until the dictators were gone and democracies in place.
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