egypt
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Post by egypt on Jul 21, 2019 13:16:20 GMT
In 1352, the Yuan managed to put down a huge threat to its existence. The red turban Rebellion has been smashed; its leaders executed. However, that only angered the people more, and only sixteen years later another rebellion started, led by Sheng Lu, a charismatic local leader in Guangdong that would eventually become the Ziyou emperor. Using the anger of the people to recruit them to his army, He led the people and took the important cities of Guangdong within a year.
The next few years he advanced north, and Reached Nanjing in 1383, While Tibet and Joseon broke off. After that he continued to move north and managed to cut the yuan emperor of from the Mongol steppe, and so in 1402, the Yuan emperor fled to Joseon, as the Guang dynasty officially proclaimed that they gained the mandate of heaven. Soon the Ziyou emperor signed peace with the tribes of Mongol steppe, who where now ruled by a distant relative of the last yuan emperor.
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egypt
Seaman
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Post by egypt on Jul 21, 2019 13:17:56 GMT
In this world, Gunpowder is not discovered. The first effect of this is a slightly faster Mongol takeover of china, as the Chinese used gunpowder to defend themselves. This is not significant, but it creates countless butterflies all over china and soon the rest of east Asia, with a few butterflies throughout Eurasia (not to mention the few wars before within china, many butterflies indeed). This does change Chinese and east Asian history in many ways. This could not save the yuan dynasty though. It had many problems facing it, as the rulers had a different culture, poor governing inherited from the steppe, and a class system with Mongols on top, as well as economic failure and natural disaster.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 21, 2019 13:39:29 GMT
In this world, Gunpowder is not discovered. The first effect of this is a slightly faster Mongol takeover of china, as the Chinese used gunpowder to defend themselves. This is not significant, but it creates countless butterflies all over china and soon the rest of east Asia, with a few butterflies throughout Eurasia (not to mention the few wars before within china, many butterflies indeed). This does change Chinese and east Asian history in many ways. This could not save the yuan dynasty though. It had many problems facing it, as the rulers had a different culture, poor governing inherited from the steppe, and a class system with Mongols on top, as well as economic failure and natural disaster.
Egypt
Welcome to the board and an interesting idea. Are you going to have it as an ASB, i.e. with some external factor preventing the invention of gunpowder and hence presumably other explosives but allowing other technological advances or is Earth going to be stuck permanently in pretty much a dark age technological level? Not sure how that could be maintained for long unless you get repressive political and/or religious institutions just about everywhere. Possibly the key issue would be does it prevent the development of printing? Without that a hell of a lot becomes more difficult.
Going to make it harder to end feudalism I suspect as more difficult for kings and emperors to suppress local rulers and also possibly to make warfare a lot slower as it would take long sieges or extensive engineering work to take well defended fortifications and cities. - Well other than the old alternative of treachery of course. Also the steppe nomads are likely to be powerful for longer, making development of civilisations in bordering lands more dramatic.
Not sure how much it would delay the rediscovery of the Americas by Europeans, although could prevent it altogether I suppose. Would make the conquest of the Americas markedly more difficult although the Spanish or whoever would still have far superior weaponry, horses and of course disease on their side.
Anyway looking forward to seeing how things develop.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 21, 2019 13:55:59 GMT
In this world, Gunpowder is not discovered. The first effect of this is a slightly faster Mongol takeover of china, as the Chinese used gunpowder to defend themselves. This is not significant, but it creates countless butterflies all over china and soon the rest of east Asia, with a few butterflies throughout Eurasia (not to mention the few wars before within china, many butterflies indeed). This does change Chinese and east Asian history in many ways. This could not save the yuan dynasty though. It had many problems facing it, as the rulers had a different culture, poor governing inherited from the steppe, and a class system with Mongols on top, as well as economic failure and natural disaster. Welcome to Alternate Timelines egypt , So a world without gunpowder, that is going to have major, major butterflies. |
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egypt
Seaman
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Post by egypt on Jul 21, 2019 14:02:56 GMT
OK i am not going to write too extensively about it (if you have better knowlege then me on the period feel free to add it yourself), but there is an event from india:
1374: Bukka Raya I fail to take over Arcot and the Reddy Kingdom.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 21, 2019 14:11:19 GMT
OK i am not going to write too extensively about it (if you have better knowlege then me on the period feel free to add it yourself), but there is an event from india: 1374: Bukka Raya I fail to take over Arcot and the Reddy Kingdom.
Well had to wiki that and doesn't have much on it but sounds like the king would be somewhat less successful but the wider impact I don't know.
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egypt
Seaman
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Post by egypt on Jul 22, 2019 15:17:12 GMT
In 1423, still worried about the political influence of the yuan emperor, the Ziyou emperor of the Guang dynasty invaded the Joseon dynasty in Korea. At first, he went undisturbed through Korea. However, after some time Korean troops started attacking him, but he won most battles, until the main force attacked the Chinese and forced them into a battle field near Pyongyang, however the Chinese emperor won the battle and nearly demolished the Korean army. After that the Chinese quickly advanced and put down a few rebellions. The yuan emperor was hanged in 1426.
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egypt
Seaman
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Post by egypt on Jul 22, 2019 16:16:28 GMT
In 1444, as the crusaders attacked the ottomans, Murad II and Wladyslaw III faced of in a battle in varna. After a long battle, the crusaders won, but at a great cost: both Wladyslaw III and Murad II died in the battle. After that the crusaders choose a new leader, and managed to force the ottoman sultan Mehmed II to sign a peace in Byzantium. According to the treaty, the Europeans reclaimed all of the European territories of the ottoman empire, several countries gaining parts of it and a new Bulgarian kingdom being established. This crusade also marked the end for the personal union between Poland and Hungary, as Wladyslaw III died.
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The Ottoman, Mughal and Safavid empires are considered “Gunpowder empires”, that is empires whose success is primarily due to gunpowder. Without gunpowder, these empires are likely to have been less successful in battles like Varna and Otlukbeli in the case of the ottomans, in Jam against the Uzbeks in the case of the Safavids, and most battles of the Mughals after Panipat. These all of course have many effects and butterflies.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jul 22, 2019 16:19:14 GMT
Interesting scenario, a world without gunpowder would be. I'd ask how TTL's 21st Century turns out, but then that'd spoil the results while we're only up to 1444 so far.
Nonetheless, I do wonder what sorts of other unexpected implications this PoD would have for industrialization as an example, in addition to its obvious effects on warfare and weapons development going forwards.
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egypt
Seaman
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Post by egypt on Jul 22, 2019 18:07:12 GMT
Interesting scenario, a world without gunpowder would be. I'd ask how TTL's 21st Century turns out, but then that'd spoil the results while we're only up to 1444 so far. Nonetheless, I do wonder what sorts of other unexpected implications this PoD would have for industrialization as an example, in addition to its obvious effects on warfare and weapons development going forwards. To be honest, i have a general timeline streching only until the 1490s. i will add more at some point later, i am not sure i will reach the 21st century (i sure hope i will though). |
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egypt
Seaman
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Post by egypt on Jul 23, 2019 13:32:23 GMT
Some people on a diffrent site are claiming that gunpowder effected the rise of the mongols, yuan ext... i can not varify theese claims now, i will put this TL on hold.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 23, 2019 18:19:08 GMT
Some people on a diffrent site are claiming that gunpowder effected the rise of the mongols, yuan ext... i can not varify theese claims now, i will put this TL on hold. A shame to hear that egypt. |
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egypt
Seaman
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Post by egypt on Jul 24, 2019 16:57:05 GMT
Some people on a diffrent site are claiming that gunpowder effected the rise of the mongols, yuan ext... i can not varify theese claims now, i will put this TL on hold. A shame to hear that egypt . Do you know if theese claims are true? right now it seems they are but i am not completly sure. anyway i have so many ideas about a diffrent subject i know a lot about i can't even choose what to do first... hopefully i can choose an idea to start with soon |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 24, 2019 18:36:57 GMT
A shame to hear that egypt . Do you know if theese claims are true? Sorry cannot help you with that, do not know much about this subject to answer this. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 24, 2019 21:08:46 GMT
Some people on a diffrent site are claiming that gunpowder effected the rise of the mongols, yuan ext... i can not varify theese claims now, i will put this TL on hold.
I don't know about the comments but guessing their talking largely about Kublai Khan's conquest of southern China? Know that involved a lot of Chinese forces working with his Mongols and sieges and the like so could have involved some use of early gunpowder weapons. In that case it would be a factor.
Otherwise from what I'm aware the Mongol conquests in the ME and Russia-E Europe were more a case of traditional steppe cavalry, albeit larger in number and better organised. Based around powerful and highly mobile heavy cavalry and horse archers. They did use siege machines for some of their storming of fortified areas but how much that was early canons and how much that might be more traditional siege engines I don't know.
The assorted empires you mentioned are often called gunpowder empires but I'm not sure how important gunpowder was in their creation, although probably significant in their extension and continuation. Even as late as 1453, a few years after Varna when Constantinople was taken by the Turks while canon were important they were constructed on site so I doubt that they were that important in a battle between field armies. Its interesting to note that in 1453 the Turkish canon were constructed and operated by hired Hungarian gunners and apparently in part because Europe was already drawing ahead of the Ottomans in gunpowder design.
If you wanted to seriously block Ottoman expansion into Europe may I suggest that the Battle_of_Kosovo goes the other way, with a Serbian victory albeit at heavy losses. With the Ottomans seriously defeated and both the emperor and his heir killed you would probably get a succession war and then with Timur's invasion in 1402 doing even more damage they could really retard Ottoman expansion and possibly result in them being excluded from Europe altogether. Although with that battle the forces were still overwhelmingly if not totally non-gunpowder in character. |
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