forcon
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Post by forcon on Oct 17, 2019 21:31:56 GMT
I can see NATO going tactical nuclear very soon. The Advance Guard reaching the Ruhr, Germany's industrial heartland, could well force Bonn to come to the negotiating table. Plus, even if those columns can't keep moving after crossing the Weser, the mere presence of them over the river will cause havoc in NATO's rears, which will be even more vulnerable because all those reservist units assigned to security duties won't have been deployed. All in all, NATO's situation is going to become very desperate, very soon - if it hasn't already. Reagan and Thacher's fingers may waver over the button, but Mitterand's will likely not.
Good work.
Oh, and as for the dogs - they're probably trolling you by making you let them out and back in every two minutes. Maltese's are smart so it could be a ploy for attention. My dog does the same thing!
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Oct 18, 2019 7:08:19 GMT
Reagan and Whitelaw's fingers may waver over the button, but Mitterand's will likely not. FTFY. Unfortunately ITTL, the GRU have been successful in their strike on Chequers. I have to be honest though, I could see Thatcher hesitating as the Soviets reach a specific red line, once they cross it though, she would press that button very firmly if she was advised by her Military advisers that it was the only way to stop them. The first use of nuclear weapons by the British would likely be nuclear landmines in this situation - Blue Peacock or a development thereof.
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forcon
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Post by forcon on Oct 18, 2019 11:48:20 GMT
Reagan and Whitelaw's fingers may waver over the button, but Mitterand's will likely not. FTFY. Unfortunately ITTL, the GRU have been successful in their strike on Chequers. I have to be honest though, I could see Thatcher hesitating as the Soviets reach a specific red line, once they cross it though, she would press that button very firmly if she was advised by her Military advisers that it was the only way to stop them. The first use of nuclear weapons by the British would likely be nuclear landmines in this situation - Blue Peacock or a development thereof. Damn, yup, I meant Whitelaw - you're probably right about Thatcher pushing the button. I just mean that Mitterand would probably be more willing due to the Soviets being a lot more capable of reaching Paris than they are London.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 18, 2019 12:44:28 GMT
James
Those columns, at least the ones still moving might be primarily targets for a warning nuclear strike. Basically informing the Soviets at the same time that if they escalate to nuclear attacks on NATO territory or other targets the west would respond in kind. Of course making sure you hit such fast moving targets, say with a/c carried tactical nukes could be difficult. Possibly also the concentration currently stalled so say columns #2, #3 & #4. Also possibly accompanied by a willingness to accept a cease-fore followed by an immediate Soviet withdrawal and negotiations on the situation in the ME. I.e. giving them an out but making clear they have crossed the line.
What communications have been going on between the Soviets and the west? Or have they been refusing to talk at all?
Steve
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 18, 2019 20:01:55 GMT
I can see NATO going tactical nuclear very soon. The Advance Guard reaching the Ruhr, Germany's industrial heartland, could well force Bonn to come to the negotiating table. Plus, even if those columns can't keep moving after crossing the Weser, the mere presence of them over the river will cause havoc in NATO's rears, which will be even more vulnerable because all those reservist units assigned to security duties won't have been deployed. All in all, NATO's situation is going to become very desperate, very soon - if it hasn't already. Reagan and Thacher's fingers may waver over the button, but Mitterand's will likely not. Good work. Oh, and as for the dogs - they're probably trolling you by making you let them out and back in every two minutes. Maltese's are smart so it could be a ploy for attention. My dog does the same thing! There will be a push in many quarters for NATO to do so, but opposition from those who live there! Plus politicians further afield do have the worry about escalation. We'll have to see how this goes. That is what the successful columns will do: interfere with the rears in more ways than they physically do. By this point, civilians will be fleeing in every direction too also across the rear. FTFY. Unfortunately ITTL, the GRU have been successful in their strike on Chequers. I have to be honest though, I could see Thatcher hesitating as the Soviets reach a specific red line, once they cross it though, she would press that button very firmly if she was advised by her Military advisers that it was the only way to stop them. The first use of nuclear weapons by the British would likely be nuclear landmines in this situation - Blue Peacock or a development thereof. It'll be a military decision when it comes to it. Someone will be convinced that their use will save a situation and the result won't go as planned. This is the first I am hearing of nuclear landmines, though it probably shouldn't be. I need to research more! Damn, yup, I meant Whitelaw - you're probably right about Thatcher pushing the button. I just mean that Mitterand would probably be more willing due to the Soviets being a lot more capable of reaching Paris than they are London. Don't hold me to this, but my current thinking is that it will be the Americans, not the Europeans, first to the big red button. France might consider it and threaten it, but without a full on invasion into France, I don't think they could. This is all still up in the air story planning wise though! James
Those columns, at least the ones still moving might be primarily targets for a warning nuclear strike. Basically informing the Soviets at the same time that if they escalate to nuclear attacks on NATO territory or other targets the west would respond in kind. Of course making sure you hit such fast moving targets, say with a/c carried tactical nukes could be difficult. Possibly also the concentration currently stalled so say columns #2, #3 & #4. Also possibly accompanied by a willingness to accept a cease-fore followed by an immediate Soviet withdrawal and negotiations on the situation in the ME. I.e. giving them an out but making clear they have crossed the line.
What communications have been going on between the Soviets and the west? Or have they been refusing to talk at all?
Steve
Several columns are good nuke targets, for a small use too. It is all about political will though. When they are joined by more Soviet troops, tank divisions not the relatively light columns, then that gets more likely. Moscow sent that message to DC at the start of the war but that is it so far. I should get back at some point to international relations/threats. I have some ideas. There won't be silence and there will also been many off-the-books things done in addition to official ones.
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 18, 2019 20:05:35 GMT
The update below is one of two: this covers the border running from say Lubeck to Kassel. The southern half will be in the next update. It was all too much to do in one sitting!
111 – The Battle of the Borders, part a
Throughout the afternoon and the evening of the Sunday that was the war’s first day, the major engagements along the Inner-German Border and the frontier between West Germany & Czechoslovakia really got going. Those political fault lines through the middle of Europe had already been crossed by invading Soviet forces who’d gone far ahead, yet those had been relatively small. That relativity was only in terms of what aimed to follow them. NATO forces had already met the enemy in battle on its own soil but, once again, those who’d seen fighting already had been overall small in number too. Now all that was changing. Soviet and East German units moved forward in strength and met with NATO formations who were trying to get as much of their own troops out to engage them. A large number of opposing aircraft finally saw each other too, operating in the same area as their opponents were: that wasn’t the case earlier in the day.
NATO defensive plans had been thrown into disarray when it came to fighting to defend West Germany. The Soviets and their allies were in better shape though nothing had gone perfect with the opening stages of Operation Elbe for them. That meant that as each side fought the other, confusion and errors saw a whole host of unforeseen outcomes occur. In short, the battle of the borders was a mess. It was a bloody mess too. Just short of eighty per cent of those supposed to go into the attack at midday were in position to do so. While some East German units didn’t reach their allotted start lines, the vast majority did. It was among the Soviet forces where the missing force components were. They didn’t get where they were supposed to on time… though some did turn up elsewhere and went over into West Germany at the wrong location. NATO forces positioned close to East Germany and Czechoslovakia had faced repeated attacks all morning first from missiles and then strike aircraft as they formed up to get out of barracks and to where they were supposed to be. Missing units, garrisoned elsewhere in the country, caused gaps to occur which there was a struggle to try and cover with what few available forces there were close enough. Too much was asked to do by too few. Coming closer to the borders, those American, British & West German troops came under fire from long-range rockets using chemical weapons as well as significant artillery fire. There were Soviet fire-control locating teams who’d come over earlier in the day in those many cross-border penetrations. They called in these attacks to hit NATO troops on the move. Above, fighter clashes occurred. Each side aimed to shoot down the other’s fighters to attack for strike aircraft, plus many armed helicopters too, to make their impact in the battles erupting below. A lot of aircraft came crashing down to the ground without achieving any overall effect in either aiding or stopping those air attacks.
Going northwest over the Inner-German Border was the East German V Corps. There was a Volksarmee division (the 8th Motorised Infantry) and combat attachments which included another tank regiment to add to the division’s own as the largest one of those: the Soviets provided additional artillery, engineers and chemical warfare troops. Airmobile and amphibious forces out ahead that had landed around Schleswig and Eckernforde were to be linked up with. The urban sprawl of Hamburg wasn’t to be gone for with the direction of advance being directly northwards up through Holstein, over the Kiel Canal, through Schleswig and onward to Denmark. Most West German forces and none of the Danes supposed to fight here under NATO plans were yet in-place. The East Germans got over the border and moved through Holstein. They soon meet the West Germans in battle and used their numbers to advantage here, plus extensive supporting firepower. Parts of the 3rd Panzer & 6th Panzergrenadier Divisions were in the general area. They were understrength when moving into battle, seriously short of manpower: this was a weekend and there had been no mobilisation. Soviet Spetsnaz had been moving since mid-morning and there were some East German commandos too with the efforts of both blocking the West German deployment out of garrisons as best as they could. They imposed delays like the rocket and artillery strikes did. The East Germans met their opponents piecemeal and were able to effectively deal with them either overcoming them in head-on fights, or, more often just pushing them aside after inflicting serious losses upon them. Rolling across the countryside – not following any major roads – the V Corps was on its way towards Kiel.
Coming onto the Luneburg Heath was the right wing of the Soviet Second Guards Tank Army: that name reflected history, this was a combined arms army in practice. Reconnaissance units led first one (the 21st Motor Rifle) and then a second (the 94th Guards Motor Rifle) division over the Elbe onto that reasonably open patch of terrain that stretched across West Germany. This was supposed to be where Dutch forces under the Netherlands I Corps would operate in wartime. The vast majority of the Dutch Army was back in their own country though while the one brigade garrisoned in West Germany had suffered horribly under a missile-delivered gas attack and would be very late to the fight underway. Crossings over the Elbe were made by combat engineers who came under fire from NATO air attacks. RAF Phantoms attempted to cover bomb runs made by West German Tornados to initially hit them before then moving to more bridging efforts made by the Soviets across the Elbe-Lateral Canal when the Soviets reached there. At this point, the air fight was joined by more aircraft coming out of the Netherlands: American F-15s flying from Soesterberg for fighter cover while Dutch F-16s went low. Near to Uelzen, where the lead regiment of the 21st Division was crossing over that canal using multiple bridges covered by air defence assets rushed forwards, the attacking Dutch pilots made many successful strikes and came away with only a few losses. More F-16s as well as further Tornados, later in the day these being British ones in addition to the Luftwaffe, had less luck a bit further north when trying to halt the Soviet’s 94th Guards Division. Enemy fighters curtailed the air effort which NATO was making to bomb temporary bridges. Soviet tanks and armoured vehicles laden with riflemen raced forward. They met in battle further parts of the West German 3rd Panzer Division as well as portions of the British Army’s 1st Armoured & West German 11th Panzergrenadier Divisions arriving afterwards. The Second Guards Tank Army was supposed to have two divisions in-line and they expected that the airmobile operation at Celle – a big communications centre plus also a garrison town – would help delay many NATO ground troops getting here. They expected to fight those NATO forces much closer to their barracks too. During the evening fighting, immense tank battles raged. Infantrymen from various armies poured out of their armoured vehicles rather than be caught inside them in the midst of this. Artillery joined, the Soviets using plenty of that especially. Trailing regiments of the Soviet’s 21st Division not caught in the air attacks earlier joined in. NATO came close to reaching parity in numbers with the Soviets at one point in the afternoon but as it got later, those reinforcements arrived. Bergen and Munster, garrison towns like Celle was, were reached (though the third town wasn’t: the airmobile battalion there having a bad day) and then Soviet tanks went over Autobahn-7. This major road was a north-south Main Line of Communication for dispersed NATO forces in supply terms. Few convoys were on the road and instead it was civilians fleeing (going in every direction) that the 94th Guards Division’s T-64s shunted aside. Bad Fallingbostel was soon in Soviet hands and this was where the British 7th Armoured Brigade, the Desert Rats, had their home base. Three quarters of the brigade had got out into the fight but other portions hadn’t moved out. Neither had the majority of civilian dependents left the immediate area. The Desert Rats were still fighting when ordered to retreat northwards and there was plenty of anger and despair once the consequences of that withdrawal was realised; their fellow soldiers in the 22nd Armoured Brigade out of Bergen-Hohne withdrew southwards and also left military families behind too yet with a lesser realisation among the ranks of the exact circumstances of where they withdrew to. The men were fighting for their lives but their thoughts were with what would be happening back at base. Meanwhile, the 21st Division got is tank regiment to where the Aller & Leine Rivers converged near to Schwarmstedt. This was a major achievement. A breakthrough had been made with West German troops pushed back southwards. There was an almighty blast just on the edges of the town, too close to civilians than projected. For a few moments, those on the ground thought it was a nuke. It wasn’t. Fuel-air bombs had been dropped by the Soviets themselves on Luneburg Heath but the Americans – a flight of F-111s coming from their UK base – employed a far bigger lone one at Schwarmstedt. That blast caught too many Soviets out in the open and halted anymore progress here among the shocked survivors. US Army troops were soon in action nearby. There was a brigade of the 2nd Armored Division forward based near to Bremen away from the rest of the division that was still in Texas. Working with a portion of the West German’s 11th Panzergrenadier Division coming from Oldenburg, and to be joined by the Dutch coming out of Seedorf, a huge attack commenced along the formations of different allies fighting together. Soviet airmobile units in Bremen had drawn off some more of the West Germans but the NATO force here, a mixed bag like this, all went forward. They linked up with the British and more West Germans. The 94th Guards Division was brought to a halt on the battlefield first near to Scheverdingen by the Dutch linking up with the West Germans and then at Soltau when the Americans reinforced the British there. American M-1A1s fought with with the embattled British Challengers & Chieftains to do a lot of good shooting. Darkness started to fall and the Soviets had been stopped. NATO losses were huge though and they were all over the place. Worse than that was the damage done off the battlefield. The whole supply network so relied upon to keep NATO mechanised forces in the field was in a mess behind the lines. Those attacking units fought with what they had to hand when coming out of bases. Now,that was almost used up. And, of course, the Second Guards Tank Army hadn’t finished here. An East German tank division was due to arrive in the area overnight to carry on the advance at first light tomorrow alongside the remains of those two Soviet motor rifle ones. They’d be going up against NATO troops who’d done well on the first day but were increasingly in no position in terms of supply to fight on the coming second day.
More of that same field army was active on the left. The 207th Motor Rifle Division came over the border near to Wolfsburg. The Checkpoint Alpha crossing wasn’t where they went through – that advance guard armoured column was long far out ahead – though they headed for the general area where the autobahn ran into West Germany from there. West German forces part of their 1st Panzer Division were moving out of garrisons around Braunschweig and Hildesheim to block further passage down that main road and also cover the approaches to Hannover: they were waiting on more of the West German I Corps, the 7th Panzer Division based far off back over the Weser, to arrive. The Soviets got at them first, coming in from the flank and using their comrades fighting at Celle to shield their own flank. Towns and villages were scattered everywhere while the small cities nearby had urban sprawl. This was a battlefield full of friendly civilians for the West Germans. The Soviets used their massed supporting firepower at distance and then up-close regardless of the presence of non-combatants. They didn’t target them yet didn’t hold their fire either. For several hours, the fighting went on. The West Germans fell back. They were outnumbered significantly: two brigades on paper number less than one in reality due to the urgency of the deployment. They also had to retreat because they hadn’t had the time to properly start digging-in nor covering engineers making demolitions. Still carrying riflemen, Soviet infantry carriers came far forward covered by tanks and got into the West Germans rear. A penetration was made at Peine and this was fatal for the West Germans. They lost too many men suddenly encircled. Those who could fall back west did so… while others were left behind. The 207th Division won an important fight and would push onwards towards the Hannover area the later in the day it got while waiting on the army’s Soviet tank division to start arriving come dawn tomorrow. Watch was kept for the arrival of the 7th Panzer Division but the closer to Hannover and the Leine the Soviets got through the evening and into the night. An intelligence summary arrived before midnight when it came to those other West Germans: the fighting at the far off Westphalian Gap meant that the 7th Panzer Division had yet to cross over the Weser. One big push here tomorrow by the 207th Division, plus the 16th Guards Tank Division ready to make the breakthrough, could easily see a major victory won.
The Twentieth Guards Army used two divisions to go over the Inner-German Border southwards of where the Second Guards Tank Army was. Not all of the pair of those formation were ready when they were supposed to be. The 35th Motor Rifle Division was missing a third of its strength held up back after getting lost and meeting traffic jams before it could cross the border north of the Harz Mountains. Most of the East German’s 11th Motorised Infantry Division was on the border to go over south of there yet there were delays imposed upon its rear support due to the mess that the Soviets had gotten themselves into because they couldn’t navigate through friendly territory. Opposition to these two formations mainly came from air interference rather than troops on the ground. NATO wartime plans called for both British and Belgian troops to be fighting in the southern reaches of Lower Saxony. Neither of them were present. There were some West Germans though, two brigades from their 2nd Panzergrenadier Division. The Werra River sat between the two of them and Soviet aircraft fought to stop any crossing while NATO interfered in that effort. The garrisons at Gottingen and Hofgeismar had been badly hit in missile & air attacks but still the West Germans got many troops out and moving… just missing that passage right through the general area of one of those Soviet advance guard columns which had gone long ahead though. Where the East Germans were soon to be fought was in the wider Gottingen area with the forwardmost brigade waiting on the second to assist them in combatting their fellow Germans. The East Germans didn’t do that well in battle despite advantages of numbers and supporting firepower. They held the attention of the 2nd Panzergrenadier Division though, enough that by the time a regiment from the Soviet 35th Division started showing up after coming in from the flank and sweeping down both banks of the Leine River this was a fight going to be won. Citizens of Gottingen were caught up in the defeat of soldiers from their national army too when they were fleeing the urban area and slaughtered in chemical weapons strikes. The West Germans weren’t even supposed to fight here if NATO had been deployed properly (they were meant to be down in Hessen under a completely different high command) and they were caught unawares in the flank attack. With only the one Soviet regiment involved in that effort, the rest of the division went westwards. They had no opposition in reaching the Leine at several points including at the town of Alfeld – hadn’t an American writer written of a fictional battle here once? – to go over. Forward scouts reported no opposition further ahead and on they drove. They were going for the Weser to make crossings there south of Hameln where that DShV battalion was fighting the British. The reconnaissance units were mistaken when they said there would be no opposition on the Weser. British troops from their 33rd Armoured Brigade, ones who’d missed that advance guard column heading for the Ruhr, came to the river from garrisons at Paderborn and in the nearby Sennelager: their air recon was accurate on the approach of the approaching Soviet Army division. Two regiments were spotted and ambushes were attempted on the eastern side of the river. Some success was had but the British didn’t have the numbers to hold back the Soviets and took losses before withdrawing. They were covered by Belgian F-16s and Mirages showing up, making air attacks and engaging enemy aircraft: the Belgians were sending troops but they couldn’t get here as fast as jets could. An immediate Soviet follow-up was expected and there was urgency along the Weser to establish a stop line. The 35th Division came off worse than the British thought from those clashes and there was hesitation before the divisional commander would move on. From the Twentieth Guards Army headquarters came an order for his removal and an instruction to the former deputy commander for the advance to proceed. By the time the Soviets reached the river, they were unable to get across. They tried everything they could. Casualties on each side, plus civilians caught in the middle, were staggering. Still, the British held on. Further reinforcements arrived from the 3rd Armoured Division and then a mass of air power was brought in too. The tank regiment assigned to the 35th Division, who should have won the day, didn’t turn up until it was far too late after spending many hours stuck inside East Germany. They would have made the difference. The defeat here stung the army commander. The Twentieth Guards Army had there more divisions assigned: two tank divisions and a motor rifle division of more Soviet troops on its way inbound from Poland. From Alfeld, while not the best terrain, it had looked likely in the mid afternoon that building on the back of the lead division’s success, most of the rest, even all of the army could go through here. That advance guard column was supposed to have opened the door ahead. It had gone too far and too fast though before the 35th Division had messed up. The Weser position was going to hold here. However, that wasn’t the end of the matter. There were other places to cross the river at and the British weren’t at full strength. Their flanks were exposed too. Tomorrow, more of the Twentieth Guards Army would be brought into action. Overnight, artillery and rockets, with high-explosives and gas, would keep the British busy where they were in their ad hoc defensive position.
To be continued...
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 19, 2019 10:24:45 GMT
It'll be a military decision when it comes to it. Someone will be convinced that their use will save a situation and the result won't go as planned. This is the first I am hearing of nuclear landmines, though it probably shouldn't be. I need to research more! Don't hold me to this, but my current thinking is that it will be the Americans, not the Europeans, first to the big red button. France might consider it and threaten it, but without a full on invasion into France, I don't think they could. This is all still up in the air story planning wise though! Several columns are good nuke targets, for a small use too. It is all about political will though. When they are joined by more Soviet troops, tank divisions not the relatively light columns, then that gets more likely. Moscow sent that message to DC at the start of the war but that is it so far. I should get back at some point to international relations/threats. I have some ideas. There won't be silence and there will also been many off-the-books things done in addition to official ones.
James
Surprised with your research you haven't heard of them before. Think there were still at least some about in the mid-80s. A brief intro in Atomic_demolition_munition, which might help.
Ah I wasn't certain whether they would be stopping on the French border or not. Especially since they are later landing troops in Britain.
I was thinking a quick drawing of the line here not only removes or greatly reduces the threat from those forces but also throws the ball back into the Soviets court as to whether they escalate further or not. It also makes clear that the allies won't allow western Europe to fall so the Soviets can save a lot of their current main line forces by ending it now.
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
Steve
PS Having read the last chapter its already looking very hairy for the allies.
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forcon
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Post by forcon on Oct 19, 2019 14:56:54 GMT
Reagan's thinking is lwess understandable if he is the one to push the button IMHO: it is France that will have the Soviets on their border. I could see it happening as an accidental or misjudged military decision as well though. The West Germans might get desperate enough to try to use the NATO operated weaponry on their soil.
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 19, 2019 15:21:43 GMT
It'll be a military decision when it comes to it. Someone will be convinced that their use will save a situation and the result won't go as planned. This is the first I am hearing of nuclear landmines, though it probably shouldn't be. I need to research more! Don't hold me to this, but my current thinking is that it will be the Americans, not the Europeans, first to the big red button. France might consider it and threaten it, but without a full on invasion into France, I don't think they could. This is all still up in the air story planning wise though! Several columns are good nuke targets, for a small use too. It is all about political will though. When they are joined by more Soviet troops, tank divisions not the relatively light columns, then that gets more likely. Moscow sent that message to DC at the start of the war but that is it so far. I should get back at some point to international relations/threats. I have some ideas. There won't be silence and there will also been many off-the-books things done in addition to official ones.
James
Surprised with your research you haven't heard of them before. Think there were still at least some about in the mid-80s. A brief intro in Atomic_demolition_munition, which might help.
Ah I wasn't certain whether they would be stopping on the French border or not. Especially since they are later landing troops in Britain.
I was thinking a quick drawing of the line here not only removes or greatly reduces the threat from those forces but also throws the ball back into the Soviets court as to whether they escalate further or not. It also makes clear that the allies won't allow western Europe to fall so the Soviets can save a lot of their current main line forces by ending it now.
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
Steve
PS Having read the last chapter its already looking very hairy for the allies. Things are still up in the air where I go and nothing is set with borders nor times & circumstances of weapons release. I have an outline but it isn't set. The idea of drawing a set line makes sense, mirrors French Cold War nuclear strategy, but it runs the risk of what to do if your enemy calls your bluff. Is it worth trading a river line for the nuclear destruction of Paris or New York? A lot of stuff to get through before we get to that point, including NATO's effort to halt those remaining armoured columns that have gone so far but can be stopped if done right. Reagan's thinking is lwess understandable if he is the one to push the button IMHO: it is France that will have the Soviets on their border. I could see it happening as an accidental or misjudged military decision as well though. The West Germans might get desperate enough to try to use the NATO operated weaponry on their soil. It will be pressure from those in uniform, more than political factors, that will see weapons release. Someone will have a bright idea and the consequences won't be fully foreseen or ignored in the panic. It all depends upon how though.
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 19, 2019 15:24:06 GMT
112 – The Battle of the Borders, part b
A patrol from the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, the Blackhorse Cav’, had fired the first shots on the ground during NATO’s defence of West Germany when engaging that Soviet advance guard column that the Canadians later stopped with air power. That engagement had occurred inside Bavaria. The majority of the Blackhorse Cav’ was over in Hessen though. Sub-units of the regiment were soon fighting elsewhere away from that initial contact site, especially through the wide area known as the Fulda Gap. That name gave lie to the terrain on the eastern side of Hessen near to the Inner-German Border: there was no true ‘gap’ like could be found on other battlefields. Instead, there was rolling countryside, full of low hills and open fields scattered all around the valley formed by the Fulda River. Away to the west, the southwest especially, there were mountains and through them there were several more valleys through which passage by armoured forces could be made or blocked making them better ‘gaps’ that the bigger so-called Fulda Gap was. What the Fulda Gap really was was good tank country whereas elsewhere nearby there wasn’t the much of it. The Blackhorse Cav’ fought with lead elements of two Soviet motor rifle divisions as they came over the border. The mission wasn’t to directly stop them but instead to break up their order of advance, provide accurate reporting on where the enemy movement was and also to protect the flanks of heavier NATO forces coming forwards to undertake the main battle. The tanks, armoured scouts and helicopters did just that. As they did, the Blackhorse Cav’ took serious losses in combat. The Eighth Guards Army supported its forward units with extensive fire support with artillery, rockets and missiles in addition to sending forward waves of combat aircraft. It was this which hurt the Blackhorse Cav’ the most. Over the border came the 39th Guards & 57th Guards Motor Rifle Divisions. They pushed forward, reaching the Fulda River and also the town with the same name. The battalion of airmobile troops there received relief from one of the 57th Guards Division’s units and what was left of that DShV unit, less than a company, escaped the death that had befallen their comrades. Their distraction mission had been achieved at quite the cost. Nearby, parts of the US Army’s 3rd Armored Division engaged that Soviet division. It was full combined arms warfare through the afternoon and evening. The fighting moved westwards though painfully slow for the Eighth Guards Army. The Americans withdrew in good order back into the Fliede Valley. They had the Kinzig Valley behind them too where, using the high ground above of the Vogelsberg Mountain, the advance would continue to meet serious opposition. Breaking the Americans here looked impossible… unless their left flank could be opened up. The 39th Guards Division was making a good effort to do that. They were fighting against a brigade of the 2nd Panzergrenadier Division (the rest of the division was at the same time being defeated up near Gottingen) and those West Germans were in trouble. Understrength and pounded repeatedly by everything the Soviets could throw at them, the West Germans began an attempt at a staged retreat before the tank regiment of the 39th Guards Division was found an opening to push through. That regiment rushed forward, smashing apart all resistance in their wake. The battlefield belonged to the Soviets here after this. In northern Hessen, Bad Hersfeld and then Kassel were behind the lines soon enough. There were three more divisions with the Eighth Guards Army, two more motor rifle ones and a tank division. The field army commander received orders from above to make the main effort in the north now, behind the progress made by the 39th Guards Division after the 57th Guards Division had been stalled by the Americans. Overnight, the trio of reinforcing divisions would be moving forward. On the NATO side, the defeat that the West Germans took here was a major blow. The hope had been that they could hold there before being reinforced themselves – the 5th Panzer Division was racing forward – and the Americans to the south had their own incoming further forces. As the evening turned to darkness, the Soviets were met in battle by the 5th Panzer but the frontlines were deep inside West Germany now and were on course tomorrow to go around the north of the Vogelsberg leaving the Americans at real risk of encirclement to their south. The Fulda Gap had been lost by NATO as a defensive position in a battle of manoeuvre even if that fight wasn’t technically yet over with.
East German troops with their III Corps entered northern Bavaria. The Volksarmee had assistance from the Soviets though this was all only a supporting flanking movement for the main advances to be made elsewhere. The 4th Motorised Infantry Division had a bad afternoon. They met with parts of both the American’s Blackhorse Cav’ and then also a portion of the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment too. Trying to push forward past these Cav’ units was near impossible. The US Army pushed two brigades forward from garrisons not that far back from the Inner-German Border with soldiers from the 1st Armored & 3rd Infantry Divisions seeing action against the East Germans once the armoured scouts slowed down the Volksarmee. Engagement after engagement was won by the Americans. There was a desire to push the invaders all the way back to the border, even go over it in places. There was another East German division there, the 7th Armoured, and the Soviets had a tank regiment nearby as well. The Americans might not get a victory on the border and break into East Germany but they wanted to try. This view from those commanders close to the frontlines wasn’t shared by those in the rear. At the US V Corps headquarters, the corps commander was aware of what was happening over in the Fulda Gap but more so where his other own troops were fighting in eastern Bavaria. The rest of the divisions to which these successful brigades were from where needed elsewhere. An attack going northwards would see dangers raised elsewhere to the whole NATO war effort to stop the Soviet-led invasion. Hold your positions, those fighting the East Germans were told, though localised counterattacks to pinch off the furthermost enemy penetrations were authorised. Much addition fire support and air cover which had helped the Americans do as well as they could in stopping the East Germans was then to be assigned elsewhere. This could have resulted in an opportunity for further advances here should the Soviets send one of their tank armies – the two of them in East Germany had yet to come forward – this way but all current planning on this was for them to see action in other areas. Each side would be generally ignoring what happened here afterwards with all of those left dead and wounded, military personnel and civilians caught up in this, having suffered like they did for no real gain.
The rest of the US V Corps as well the West Germans II Corps had the projected wartime mission of stopping a Warsaw Pact invasion coming out of Czechoslovakia. Americans with the 2nd Cav’ and the 1st Armored Division were on the left with the 4th Panzergrenadier Division on the right in being based in forward positions. Like elsewhere, missile attacks using explosives and gas had hit bases and then there had come further air and rocket strikes when they got out of their garrison stations on the way to the border. They faced off against an opening attack made by the Central Group of Forces, renamed in previous days as the now Thirty–Eighth Army. The 18th Guards & 48th Motor Rifle Divisions came over the border. They went into the Bavarian Forest where those airmobile units lifted in by helicopters earlier in the day were holding open access routes. The West Germans had moved against the DShV battalion in their sector especially hard already to wipe out much of it but those whom the Americans had fought to the north of them had held off 2nd Cav’ attacks rather well. Soviet armoured columns entered Bavaria, went through the gaps held open for them as best as possible and pushed back those NATO units which had gotten forward. The Old Ironsides, the US Army’s 1st Armored Division, had its brigade out of the Vilseck garrison meet with the 18th Guards Division. The fight was over a wide area and none of it actually on the Grafenwohr training area which the Americans knew so well despite close to there. Still, this was the Old Ironsides’ home ground. They started out doing well and holding off the Soviets. More of that attacking division kept on coming though and the Americans were forced back. By the evening, the 18th Guards Division got its tank regiment into play. Over ninety T-72 tanks turned the American’s flank while their mobile air defences and also low-flying MiGs fought off a determined effort by US Army attack helicopters to stop them. On the verge of being encircled, the Americans withdrew fast. Yet, in the chaos of the retreat, the Soviets gained the advantage and all of those tanks ran riot. The Old Ironsides’ 1st Brigade would be lost in what would be (incorrectly) deemed the Battle of Nurnberg. The skies were full of friendly air cover ready to assist if possible but their presence was negated by enemy air activity and communications mix-ups with those on the ground. Soviet air power hadn’t got into play with fixed-wing aircraft either but they had used their own attack helicopters, an awful lot of Hinds (many eventually shot down), to make an impact when they could in isolating American sub-units to allow for the ground forces to take them apart piecemeal. This was a major defeat overall, something to hit morale far and wide once news would later come out. There were already Soviet troops with that VDV advance guard column behind them in Nurnberg but the thinking had been that this fight against the 18th Guards Division could be won before the rest of the 1st Armored aimed to assist in defeating Soviet paratroopers who’d slipped in behind. That wasn’t to be. A tank division (the 31st) would later cross into Bavaria to join the victorious motor rifle division out ahead to see where tomorrow would take them. As to the West Germans, they built on that success earlier in the Bavarian Forest to stop the Soviet’s 48th Division from getting through there and towards the Danube Valley. Two brigades of the 4th Panzergrenadier held the invaders off at the crossroads town of Cham deep inside the mountainous forest and then too on the edge of it near Deggendorf when the 48th Division’s tank regiment got as far as it could before running into a wall of defensive fire there. The American defeat to the north would quickly concentrate West German minds though. They correctly anticipated that the Thirty–Eighth Army would be moving forward more of its forces through the night, tank divisions, to show up there and now leave them here on the flank to be bypassed. While other West German II Corps would be coming towards where the 4th Panzergrenadier had held off the Soviets, others would be going north though to try and plug the gap torn open. American and Canadian troops would be doing the same: all sent to avert the disaster that had come about after the Battle of Nurnberg.
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hussar01
Chief petty officer
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Post by hussar01 on Oct 19, 2019 19:03:33 GMT
The way things are going, will there be fighting in France?
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Oct 20, 2019 15:35:24 GMT
The way things are going, will there be fighting in France? It is moving that way for certain!
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Oct 20, 2019 15:36:06 GMT
113 – Target: UK
Across Britain, explosions occurred when warheads from Soviet missiles went off. Through England, Scotland, Wales and over in Northern Ireland too war came home to the nation. It went on for just short of an hour through the early evening. The RAF had interceptors up to try and stop the immense attack either by hitting the bombers before they launched those missiles or the missiles themselves in-flight. There was little success in this. High-speed, long-range Backfire bombers were out over the water to the north and west of Britain. There was no one big wave of them but rather multiple flights of two or three, sometimes even just a lone aircraft, firing missiles that flew into Britain. They fired cruise missiles with an anti-radar mission and these went low, making turns in-flight to confuse the defenders and also draw them all over the sky. Radar stations across Britain were knocked out. Slower, bigger Bears carrying many more missiles each fired afterwards from further out with the ordnance they unleashed going after a wider target plot. While the RAF did manage to put a dent in the attack, and there were plenty of the missiles which failed to achieve their mission goal, overall this wasn’t enough. Britain was a target rich environment for such a strike like this and the Soviets got their way. The country got a walloping. The notion expressed by ministers earlier in the day that perhaps the UK wouldn’t be targeted like this was shown for the foolishness that it was.
Manned and unmanned radar posts were the first hit before in came the larger waves of missiles which flew towards military targets. Airbases from where the RAF flew as well as ones that the Americans based in the UK were located at, as well as planned secondary sites for CRESTED CAP reinforcements coming across the Atlantic, took many hits. The warheads carried a mixture of high-explosives and chemicals. Where the latter was used, it was persistent gas to make certain that recovery operations at these sites would be difficult: that hadn’t been the case with many targets on the Continent where non-persistent weapons were used at sites that the Soviet Army was heading towards. Both the RAF and the US Air Force were in the midst of operations at the time. Sirens waited and personnel donned the absent bits to complete their NBC suits as well as rushing into cover. Aircraft and facilities were blasted and military personnel were killed. Utter horror was unleashed when the effects of the chemical attacks impacted nearby communities with base housing but also villages being clustered around many of the targets. Garrisons and naval bases for the British Army and the Royal Navy were targeted too. These places were full of activity just like the airbases. Casualties among the armed forces and civilians alike were horrendous, this was especially the case in the naval towns of Portsmouth and Plymouth on the South Coast of England. Headquarters complexes and military communications sites got less attention than the bigger active military sites but the Soviet missile strike still did a lot of damage to those targeted ones as well.
Then there were the civilian sites targeted too, the ones which Britain was aiming to use for the movement of troops, equipment & supplies to support the ongoing fighting on the Continent. Ports and airports were on the receiving end of this. There was a wide spread of these on the target plot just like the military sites. The Port of Dover was particularly hard hit and so too was Heathrow Airport: the employment of gas at these two would cause horrendous civilian casualties. Unlike the British Armed Forces, there was absolutely no protection available for civilian workers caught in these chemical attacks. Military personnel were arriving at the ports and airports yet those who worked at them were still there when the missiles came. Rushing to any shelter they could find when fearing just explosions did them no good when the gas was unleashed. It was persistent forms of these weapons used again too, making any later use of the facilities impossible until major efforts at decontamination had been made.
Secretary of Defence Younger was at RAF High Wycombe when the missile attack came: not that far from the smouldering ruins of Chequers where Thatcher had been slain in the early hours. The aboveground portion of the command facility here in Buckinghamshire was hit by just the lone missile (unknown to him or anyone else, another one targeted here had been one of the few that RAF interceptors managed to bring down) that levelled several buildings. Younger was down in the bunker though, one of the country’s most important ones for military command and control. When the missile attack had first been spotted on radar, there had been the fear that this was a nuclear strike. The already high state of alert had been increased even further. It wasn’t until the conventional blasts started occurring nationwide that it was understood this was no nuclear strike. However, the news of the chemical attacks caused almost as much shock as a nuclear one would have. The senior RAF people in the bunker were engaged in post-strike management of the wider attack while Younger was in contact with Whitelaw and other colleagues. The government remained spread out across the nation in those RSG bunkers. The prime minister up at Hack Green had only just come off the telephone when speaking through a link-up with President Reagan when the sirens wailed. He’d feared the cruise missiles reported coming in contained nuclear warheads and been steeling himself to give the order for a retaliatory nuclear strike to be made. Whitelaw would have done it if he had to. The chemical strike didn’t warrant such a nuclear response by Britain though. There was outrage at what the Soviets had done in hitting the UK like this yet there had already been chemical attacks made on British forces across on the Continent. It wasn’t a case of this was acceptable behaviour and Britain would do nothing about that, but this wasn’t the time to start using Polaris and WE.177s.
Both Whitelaw and Younger were briefed on the effects of the Soviet missile attack as the evening went on when more information came in. The list of sites hit grew and so did the casualty numbers. As politicians, the two of them focused on that. Senior military chiefs forced the two of them – plus other ministers elsewhere – to instead pay more attention to something that they saw as more significant. The Chief of the Defence Staff told Whitelaw that the strike had been ‘perfect’ from a targeteers perspective. None of those missiles had been wasted. Everything hit was vitally important. He explained that the armed forces were just getting started in their emergency deployments and the Soviets had attacked at the right moment, the perfect time, to cause maximum impact to slow that down. There was a reason for the attack to come when it did too: the Soviets had that Operation Blackbird plan, didn’t they? What was in many ways ‘War Plan UK’ was known to have been swiped by a spy several weeks back. MI-5, Defence Intelligence and the MOD had all been involved in figuring out what had happened and then the reaction afterwards. There had been changes made to Blackbird but not much had been modified in the past three weeks. Some of that was impossible to change in military terms but there had been the political dimension too. The chickens had come home to roost and thousands had died because of that.
Something that Britain was certain that the Soviets had no access to, what hadn’t been walked out of the MOD Main Building to be handed over to the GRU, was Operation Candid. This was a different wartime operation, one covering the evacuation and protection of royalty. Members of the Royal Family had been escorted by soldiers away from residences and were moved across the nation to specially selected locations where they would be protected; others were already on their way overseas to Commonwealth countries. This had taken place as the government had dispersed too. Britain’s leaders were safe. Their people though…
Whitelaw had spoken to the country at lunchtime. He’d broadcast to the nation through the media: all of that under government control. The circumstances of Thatcher’s demise nor what exactly was going on across on the Continent weren’t something shared with the public. What the British people needed to know they were told, anything more was deemed certain to incite panic. The particulars of what the public was told had been decided by their betters. The Queen was due to make a broadcast later this evening as well. With Whitelaw’s broadcast which went out over the BBC, he informed those listening that Transition to War measures were already in effect. A brief description of the impact that they would have, especially starting tomorrow on Monday morning, was given. He urged calm across the nation and for people to listen to the authorities. What was being done with regards to communications & movements restrictions, security, the clearing of hospitals ready for receiving casualties, mobilisation and so much more was all necessary. It had to be done to safeguard the country and support the war. That war was one which Britain had been the victim of in the form of a surprise attack, something wholly unjustifiable. The new Prime Minister urged the country to back the war effort and to have trust in the government to keep them safe.
Then that missile attack had come as the country was targeted so well and hit so hard. Keeping the British people safe had been something that the government had so far failed to do.
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lordroel
Administrator
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Post by lordroel on Oct 20, 2019 15:42:06 GMT
113 – Target: UKAcross Britain, explosions occurred when warheads from Soviet missiles went off. Through England, Scotland, Wales and over in Northern Ireland too war came home to the nation. It went on for just short of an hour through the early evening. The RAF had interceptors up to try and stop the immense attack either by hitting the bombers before they launched those missiles or the missiles themselves in-flight. There was little success in this. High-speed, long-range Backfire bombers were out over the water to the north and west of Britain. There was no one big wave of them but rather multiple flights of two or three, sometimes even just a lone aircraft, firing missiles that flew into Britain. They fired cruise missiles with an anti-radar mission and these went low, making turns in-flight to confuse the defenders and also draw them all over the sky. Radar stations across Britain were knocked out. Slower, bigger Bears carrying many more missiles each fired afterwards from further out with the ordnance they unleashed going after a wider target plot. While the RAF did manage to put a dent in the attack, and there were plenty of the missiles which failed to achieve their mission goal, overall this wasn’t enough. Britain was a target rich environment for such a strike like this and the Soviets got their way. The country got a walloping. The notion expressed by ministers earlier in the day that perhaps the UK wouldn’t be targeted like this was shown for the foolishness that it was. Manned and unmanned radar posts were the first hit before in came the larger waves of missiles which flew towards military targets. Airbases from where the RAF flew as well as ones that the Americans based in the UK were located at, as well as planned secondary sites for CRESTED CAP reinforcements coming across the Atlantic, took many hits. The warheads carried a mixture of high-explosives and chemicals. Where the latter was used, it was persistent gas to make certain that recovery operations at these sites would be difficult: that hadn’t been the case with many targets on the Continent where non-persistent weapons were used at sites that the Soviet Army was heading towards. Both the RAF and the US Air Force were in the midst of operations at the time. Sirens waited and personnel donned the absent bits to complete their NBC suits as well as rushing into cover. Aircraft and facilities were blasted and military personnel were killed. Utter horror was unleashed when the effects of the chemical attacks impacted nearby communities with base housing but also villages being clustered around many of the targets. Garrisons and naval bases for the British Army and the Royal Navy were targeted too. These places were full of activity just like the airbases. Casualties among the armed forces and civilians alike were horrendous, this was especially the case in the naval towns of Portsmouth and Plymouth on the South Coast of England. Headquarters complexes and military communications sites got less attention than the bigger active military sites but the Soviet missile strike still did a lot of damage to those targeted ones as well. Then there were the civilian sites targeted too, the ones which Britain was aiming to use for the movement of troops, equipment & supplies to support the ongoing fighting on the Continent. Ports and airports were on the receiving end of this. There was a wide spread of these on the target plot just like the military sites. The Port of Dover was particularly hard hit and so too was Heathrow Airport: the employment of gas at these two would cause horrendous civilian casualties. Unlike the British Armed Forces, there was absolutely no protection available for civilian workers caught in these chemical attacks. Military personnel were arriving at the ports and airports yet those who worked at them were still there when the missiles came. Rushing to any shelter they could find when fearing just explosions did them no good when the gas was unleashed. It was persistent forms of these weapons used again too, making any later use of the facilities impossible until major efforts at decontamination had been made. Secretary of Defence Younger was at RAF High Wycombe when the missile attack came: not that far from the smouldering ruins of Chequers where Thatcher had been slain in the early hours. The aboveground portion of the command facility here in Buckinghamshire was hit by just the lone missile (unknown to him or anyone else, another one targeted here had been one of the few that RAF interceptors managed to bring down) that levelled several buildings. Younger was down in the bunker though, one of the country’s most important ones for military command and control. When the missile attack had first been spotted on radar, there had been the fear that this was a nuclear strike. The already high state of alert had been increased even further. It wasn’t until the conventional blasts started occurring nationwide that it was understood this was no nuclear strike. However, the news of the chemical attacks caused almost as much shock as a nuclear one would have. The senior RAF people in the bunker were engaged in post-strike management of the wider attack while Younger was in contact with Whitelaw and other colleagues. The government remained spread out across the nation in those RSG bunkers. The prime minister up at Hack Green had only just come off the telephone when speaking through a link-up with President Reagan when the sirens wailed. He’d feared the cruise missiles reported coming in contained nuclear warheads and been steeling himself to give the order for a retaliatory nuclear strike to be made. Whitelaw would have done it if he had to. The chemical strike didn’t warrant such a nuclear response by Britain though. There was outrage at what the Soviets had done in hitting the UK like this yet there had already been chemical attacks made on British forces across on the Continent. It wasn’t a case of this was acceptable behaviour and Britain would do nothing about that, but this wasn’t the time to start using Polaris and WE.177s. Both Whitelaw and Younger were briefed on the effects of the Soviet missile attack as the evening went on when more information came in. The list of sites hit grew and so did the casualty numbers. As politicians, the two of them focused on that. Senior military chiefs forced the two of them – plus other ministers elsewhere – to instead pay more attention to something that they saw as more significant. The Chief of the Defence Staff told Whitelaw that the strike had been ‘perfect’ from a targeteers perspective. None of those missiles had been wasted. Everything hit was vitally important. He explained that the armed forces were just getting started in their emergency deployments and the Soviets had attacked at the right moment, the perfect time, to cause maximum impact to slow that down. There was a reason for the attack to come when it did too: the Soviets had that Operation Blackbird plan, didn’t they? What was in many ways ‘War Plan UK’ was known to have been swiped by a spy several weeks back. MI-5, Defence Intelligence and the MOD had all been involved in figuring out what had happened and then the reaction afterwards. There had been changes made to Blackbird but not much had been modified in the past three weeks. Some of that was impossible to change in military terms but there had been the political dimension too. The chickens had come home to roost and thousands had died because of that. Something that Britain was certain that the Soviets had no access to, what hadn’t been walked out of the MOD Main Building to be handed over to the GRU, was Operation Candid. This was a different wartime operation, one covering the evacuation and protection of royalty. Members of the Royal Family had been escorted by soldiers away from residences and were moved across the nation to specially selected locations where they would be protected; others were already on their way overseas to Commonwealth countries. This had taken place as the government had dispersed too. Britain’s leaders were safe. Their people though… Whitelaw had spoken to the country at lunchtime. He’d broadcast to the nation through the media: all of that under government control. The circumstances of Thatcher’s demise nor what exactly was going on across on the Continent weren’t something shared with the public. What the British people needed to know they were told, anything more was deemed certain to incite panic. The particulars of what the public was told had been decided by their betters. The Queen was due to make a broadcast later this evening as well. With Whitelaw’s broadcast which went out over the BBC, he informed those listening that Transition to War measures were already in effect. A brief description of the impact that they would have, especially starting tomorrow on Monday morning, was given. He urged calm across the nation and for people to listen to the authorities. What was being done with regards to communications & movements restrictions, security, the clearing of hospitals ready for receiving casualties, mobilisation and so much more was all necessary. It had to be done to safeguard the country and support the war. That war was one which Britain had been the victim of in the form of a surprise attack, something wholly unjustifiable. The new Prime Minister urged the country to back the war effort and to have trust in the government to keep them safe. Then that missile attack had come as the country was targeted so well and hit so hard. Keeping the British people safe had been something that the government had so far failed to do. And we are almost to the first post, nice update James G, as always.
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lordbyron
Warrant Officer
Posts: 235
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Post by lordbyron on Oct 20, 2019 17:32:43 GMT
Now we're getting to where this began...
Waiting for more...
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