stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 29, 2019 12:30:54 GMT
All
Just came across this link in a discussion on a naval site where someone asked what if the Germans had shown tolerance towards the Slavs, and specifically the Ukrainians in 1941. The response was wiki link from Wiki. Initially somewhat doubtful but it sounding an interesting counter. I know this is a question that often gets asked on AH sites as one of the classic WWII what ifs for the Germans so thought it might be interesting to you.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 29, 2019 12:46:28 GMT
All Just came across this link in a discussion on a naval site where someone asked what if the Germans had shown tolerance towards the Slavs, and specifically the Ukrainians in 1941. The response was wiki link from Wiki. Initially somewhat doubtful but it sounding an interesting counter. I know this is a question that often gets asked on AH sites as one of the classic WWII what ifs for the Germans so thought it might be interesting to you. Steve
You mean treating the Ukrainians, the Belorussians better than they had on OTL. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 29, 2019 14:47:41 GMT
All Just came across this link in a discussion on a naval site where someone asked what if the Germans had shown tolerance towards the Slavs, and specifically the Ukrainians in 1941. The response was wiki link from Wiki. Initially somewhat doubtful but it sounding an interesting counter. I know this is a question that often gets asked on AH sites as one of the classic WWII what ifs for the Germans so thought it might be interesting to you. Steve
You mean treating the Ukrainians, the Belorussians better than they had on OTL.
Basically yes. I've always had the view that if they had been willing and capable to do so they probably would have defeated Stalin fairly quickly. Likely to have some fighting into 42 especially if they really try for the Urals, which they probably will have to, but very likely effectively all over by the end of that year.
Always been uncertain how easily Nazi propaganda could be overturned if Hitler really wanted to but that link suggests it would be somewhat harder than I had considered.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 29, 2019 15:05:15 GMT
You mean treating the Ukrainians, the Belorussians better than they had on OTL. Basically yes. I've always had the view that if they had been willing and capable to do so they probably would have defeated Stalin fairly quickly. Likely to have some fighting into 42 especially if they really try for the Urals, which they probably will have to, but very likely effectively all over by the end of that year. Always been uncertain how easily Nazi propaganda could be overturned if Hitler really wanted to but that link suggests it would be somewhat harder than I had considered.
You mean if they had created puppet Belorussian and Ukrainian republics who could supply additional manpower for Barbarossa, would that not counter Hitler planned lebensraum in the East. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 29, 2019 17:06:33 GMT
Basically yes. I've always had the view that if they had been willing and capable to do so they probably would have defeated Stalin fairly quickly. Likely to have some fighting into 42 especially if they really try for the Urals, which they probably will have to, but very likely effectively all over by the end of that year. Always been uncertain how easily Nazi propaganda could be overturned if Hitler really wanted to but that link suggests it would be somewhat harder than I had considered.
You mean if they had created puppet Belorussian and Ukrainian republics who could supply additional manpower for Barbarossa, would that not counter Hitler planned lebensraum in the East.
Well the nasty option would have been offering assorted people's help, with support for a Ukrainian and other republics and presuming someone does a Vlasov then forming a RLA [Russian Liberation Army]. Use forces from those groups to 'help' with liberating their homelands, especially in areas such as storming urban centres and also play them off against each other when you can. Then betray them with a sudden decapitation of their leadership and main forces. After all the Germans will have the military construction for heavy equipment and can keep such facilities out of the hands of their puppets.
This betrayal could occur a couple of years down the line as Poland and the former Czech republic could be 'cleared' and settled 1st - assuming Hitler was both a brutal racist AND markedly more intelligent. Or they could go for something sooner, relying on the success of the back-stab and the likely mistrust between the communist and non-communist groups to enable them to win - or simply the delusion of Aryan superiority.
Of course this assumes that the Nazified military can be ordered to show restraint and tolerance of assorted Slavic groups and to actually obey those orders, which that link suggests might be a lot more difficult than many people, including myself considered. On the other hand Vlasov defected after his capture in July 42, i.e. over a year after Barbarossa and when the Germans finally agreed to form some sort of unit in 1944 a lot of Soviet pows joined it so even after early experiences of German/Nazi excesses there were options. If the German leadership had decided to form a RLA earlier and support assorted nationalist groups they could have used propaganda with occasional 'trials' of Germans who carry out excesses and making reference to them acting despite orders to keep most of the rebels friendly.
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Post by Middlesex_Toffeeman on Jul 7, 2019 6:36:37 GMT
I'll say what I always say on this topic. (you can copy/paste this for reference)
1) Calbear's AANW/Festung Europa was and is a massive Nazi wank. Given his loathing for Israel, I wouldn't be surprised if he has ulterior motives there. Either way, any of his ”science” should be taken with a big bucket of salt.
2) There were roughly 100 million European Russians (the Nazis didn't want to conquer Siberia and were happy to let the rump Soviet state have it), 25 million Poles, 40 million Ukrainians, 7 million Belarussians and 3 million Balts (Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians). The Nazis only killed 12 million people and, even then, there was significant loss of morale in the camps and large-scale logistical problems. You cannot kill 170-odd million people without really big problems making themselves apparent.
3) A lot of European Russia gets very cold in the winter. Just one of the many lessons we learnt from the Winter War was that a small, badly armed guerrilla force can defeat a better armed but badly trained force, especially (as per the Winter War) if said big force isn't prepared for bad weather. It's a tactic older than the discovery of gravity - the Assassins used it against the Sunni caliphates. With a population of 100 million, and the fact that, despite Frenchmen and Germans being treated pretty equally, the Maquis and French Resistance existed, the Germans would have a tough time keeping control. Even a resistance force of .1% of the population would be very dicey for German settlers.
4) Carrying on from above, there are likely to be between 100,000 and 250,000 resistance members in Russia, around 40-80,000 in the Polish Armia Krajowa and another 50,000 from other countries.
5) Finland and Estonia were and are allies (there was a proposal to unify them in the 20s) and there is no way that Jukka ”We have no Jewish problem” Rangell is going to stab the Estonians in the back.
6) The plan for Generalplan Ost came from Himmler, who was just batshit crazy. More rational voices in Hitler's cabinet (Speer, von Schirach) will stop it and I doubt Göring or the Kriegsmarine will be terribly happy with a plan that makes their forces redundant and prioritises the Wehrmacht and SS.
7) The UK and US were allies of Russia and they aren't going to say ”sod you, we're alright Jack”.
8) Finland (who, as per (5) aren't too keen on the Nazis and their racism) will likely get the Kola peninsula and three isthimus line out of the war. There will probably be a large refugee crisis as Russians flee to Finland and the Kola, which will play havoc with Nazi plans.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 7, 2019 7:23:53 GMT
I'll say what I always say on this topic. (you can copy/paste this for reference) 1) Calbear's AANW/Festung Europa was and is a massive Nazi wank. Given his loathing for Israel, I wouldn't be surprised if he has ulterior motives there. Either way, any of his ”science” should be taken with a big bucket of salt. Can we keep other people who are not a member of this forum and who cannot defend themselves views out of this thread please and focus on the Nazis don't persecute Slavs in Barbarossa subjecht. |
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