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Post by Middlesex_Toffeeman on Apr 21, 2019 8:45:29 GMT
Have a Roman colony, settlement, or independent nation of some description in America.
THE RULES:
The colony/settlement/independent nation may be established at any time.
The colony/settlement/independent nation may have any form of government.
The colony/settlement/independent nation *MUST* be extant for over 10 years.
"Roman" is defined as any nation that *IDENTIFIES* as an attack helicopter as a/the Roman Empire/Republic/Kingdom (eg. Byzantines, actual Roman Empire, HRE, Odoacer's thing). Nations that claim to be the *SUCCESSOR* of the Roman Empire don't count (eg. Russian Empire, Fascist Italy).
Good luck, and may the odds be ever in your favour!
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 21, 2019 8:51:47 GMT
Have a Roman colony, settlement, or independent nation of some description in America. THE RULES: The colony/settlement/independent nation may be established at any time. The colony/settlement/independent nation may have any form of government. The colony/settlement/independent nation *MUST* be extant for over 10 years. "Roman" is defined as any nation that *IDENTIFIES* as an attack helicopter as a/the Roman Empire/Republic/Kingdom (eg. Byzantines, actual Roman Empire, HRE, Odoacer's thing). Nations that claim to be the *SUCCESSOR* of the Roman Empire don't count (eg. Russian Empire, Fascist Italy). Good luck, and may the odds be ever in your favour! Should this not be in Shared Worlds due to involving members creating a Roman colony, settlement, or independent nation of some description in America. |
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Post by Middlesex_Toffeeman on Apr 21, 2019 9:17:53 GMT
Have a Roman colony, settlement, or independent nation of some description in America. THE RULES: The colony/settlement/independent nation may be established at any time. The colony/settlement/independent nation may have any form of government. The colony/settlement/independent nation *MUST* be extant for over 10 years. "Roman" is defined as any nation that *IDENTIFIES* as an attack helicopter as a/the Roman Empire/Republic/Kingdom (eg. Byzantines, actual Roman Empire, HRE, Odoacer's thing). Nations that claim to be the *SUCCESSOR* of the Roman Empire don't count (eg. Russian Empire, Fascist Italy). Good luck, and may the odds be ever in your favour! Should this not be in Shared Worlds due to involving members creating a Roman colony, settlement, or independent nation of some description in America. It's an AHC - I give you a scenario and, using history, you have to come up with a plausible way for it to occur. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 21, 2019 9:20:44 GMT
Should this not be in Shared Worlds due to involving members creating a Roman colony, settlement, or independent nation of some description in America. It's an AHC - I give you a scenario and, using history, you have to come up with a plausible way for it to occur. Okay i will allow it, but it would be far easier for a Viking colony to be settle in America then a Roman colony, settlement, or independent nation as i do not know if the Romans had the ships to cross the Atlantic Ocean. |
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Post by Middlesex_Toffeeman on Apr 21, 2019 9:24:17 GMT
It's an AHC - I give you a scenario and, using history, you have to come up with a plausible way for it to occur. Okay i will allow it, but it would be far easier for a Viking colony to be settle in America then a Roman colony, settlement, or independent nation as i do not know if the Romans had the ships to cross the Atlantic Ocean. The HRE are an option - Bremen to America seems a lot easier than, say, Tromsø to America. Besides, it doesn't have to be a Roma empire that existed OTL. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 21, 2019 9:27:49 GMT
Okay i will allow it, but it would be far easier for a Viking colony to be settle in America then a Roman colony, settlement, or independent nation as i do not know if the Romans had the ships to cross the Atlantic Ocean. The HRE are an option - Bremen to America seems a lot easier than, say, Tromsø to America. Besides, it doesn't have to be a Roma empire that existed OTL. Does Iceland also count as being in America also seems that “Romans discovered America, not Icelanders” |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 21, 2019 10:14:05 GMT
The HRE are an option - Bremen to America seems a lot easier than, say, Tromsø to America. Besides, it doesn't have to be a Roma empire that existed OTL. Does Iceland also count as being in America also seems that “Romans discovered America, not Icelanders”
Interesting idea. If it occurred it was probably a single ship blown way, way off course by storms or possibly an explorer and little/no sign of any survivors so wouldn't meet the OP requirement MT set for a colony lasting at least a decade. Or as the article says it could be a few items carried to the region by local settlers, including possibly Vikings.
The original Rome had a problem in that being a Med centred society it never really looked much further afield or developed the necessary maritime technology. Even more so by Byzantium as that was focused further east. Most other successor states lacked the resources, unless they had become a lot more successful. Exception as MT says is probably the HRE. If the Hanseatic League survived so some traders seeking new markets in the Viking western colonies might 'discover' N America via looking for the lost Viking colony established there. Which could then be drawn into a reformed HRE at some point.
Alternatively say the original Rome is more successful either in the north, successfully holding more of Germany and taking all of Britain and Ireland. Not sure their actually economically that attractive in the latter cases but a general/emperor looking for glory/prestige could end up taking such an option possibly. This would probably mean development of ships more suitable to the northern seas, trade with Scandinavia and the Baltic and possibly a wayward ship or explorer following rumours finding Iceland. In turn they then follow the Viking path to Greenland and Newfoundland but with a powerful empire giving occasional support this leads to the richer mainland areas. Then trade, or desire for conquest takes them into actual colonies there.
Another option might be a southern one. Possibly following legends of Carthaginian voyages around Africa trader reach the gulf of Guinea. Again this would need better ships and in the short term there might not be much to trade with there while disease is likely to make the death toll for traders high. Alternatively possibly a western Rome cut off from the traditional eastern trade routes by an eastern rival, or a Rome that loses Syria and Egypt to Persia or something like OTL Islam could look for a different route to the spices, silk, etc of the east. Either way with regular trade route to/through W Africa its not too difficult to see a ship driven westward and discovering Brazil. From there some very rich potential lands are available.
Anyway initial ideas for possibilities.
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Post by Middlesex_Toffeeman on Apr 21, 2019 11:33:14 GMT
stevep, surely Agrippa could have conquered Ireland in the 80s - it's holding it that's tricky. What about a Roman Azores as a stepping stone to the Cape Verdes? Cape Verde islands are a *lot* closer to the American continent then, say, Cadiz, so a base there could help traders on their way to Sub-Saharan Africa as well as Roman expeditions - perhaps a few are swept away and reach Brazil?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 21, 2019 21:56:31 GMT
stevep , surely Agrippa could have conquered Ireland in the 80s - it's holding it that's tricky. What about a Roman Azores as a stepping stone to the Cape Verdes? Cape Verde islands are a *lot* closer to the American continent then, say, Cadiz, so a base there could help traders on their way to Sub-Saharan Africa as well as Roman expeditions - perhaps a few are swept away and reach Brazil? MT
That seemed to be the problem with both Ireland and Scotland. A competently led Roman force could go just about anywhere and defeat any force that came against them but holding ground against guerilla resistance and the sheer lack of income from such provinces, at least in the short term would make it rather difficult.
The southern route is probably more likely as you say, especially if there's an incentive, such as the eastern trade route being cut off which would motivate the development of deep sea ships for a longer route. Although it might also need awareness that the Atlantic and Indian Oceans were linked. Think I read once that the classical age Greeks and Romans thought that the Indian Ocean was landlocked. Then some of the island chains provide stepping stones that might be more useful than the mainland, especially since they might be suitable for fishing and since we're talking about the Romans slave plantations.
Steve
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Post by Middlesex_Toffeeman on Apr 22, 2019 8:38:37 GMT
stevep , surely Agrippa could have conquered Ireland in the 80s - it's holding it that's tricky. What about a Roman Azores as a stepping stone to the Cape Verdes? Cape Verde islands are a *lot* closer to the American continent then, say, Cadiz, so a base there could help traders on their way to Sub-Saharan Africa as well as Roman expeditions - perhaps a few are swept away and reach Brazil? MT
That seemed to be the problem with both Ireland and Scotland. A competently led Roman force could go just about anywhere and defeat any force that came against them but holding ground against guerilla resistance and the sheer lack of income from such provinces, at least in the short term would make it rather difficult.
The southern route is probably more likely as you say, especially if there's an incentive, such as the eastern trade route being cut off which would motivate the development of deep sea ships for a longer route. Although it might also need awareness that the Atlantic and Indian Oceans were linked. Think I read once that the classical age Greeks and Romans thought that the Indian Ocean was landlocked. Then some of the island chains provide stepping stones that might be more useful than the mainland, especially since they might be suitable for fishing and since we're talking about the Romans slave plantations.
Steve
Agreed, but all it takes is one chap popping off south - Ghana is only a bit away and furnished with lots of gold - and being swept away to wind up in Brazil or South Africa. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 22, 2019 10:17:47 GMT
MT
That seemed to be the problem with both Ireland and Scotland. A competently led Roman force could go just about anywhere and defeat any force that came against them but holding ground against guerilla resistance and the sheer lack of income from such provinces, at least in the short term would make it rather difficult.
The southern route is probably more likely as you say, especially if there's an incentive, such as the eastern trade route being cut off which would motivate the development of deep sea ships for a longer route. Although it might also need awareness that the Atlantic and Indian Oceans were linked. Think I read once that the classical age Greeks and Romans thought that the Indian Ocean was landlocked. Then some of the island chains provide stepping stones that might be more useful than the mainland, especially since they might be suitable for fishing and since we're talking about the Romans slave plantations.
Steve
Agreed, but all it takes is one chap popping off south - Ghana is only a bit away and furnished with lots of gold - and being swept away to wind up in Brazil or South Africa.
Very true and its more likely than the northern route but think it would require some significant advances in ship designs. You would not only need the development of more robust sailing ships but also to get around the contrary winds in the region ships that could sail markedly closer to the wind. Think this was the big breakthrough that make the Portuguese explorations possible. Can still happen of course but might take some time to develop.
As you say there is gold and other items from west Africa to act as a lure for traders and seeking to bypass the Saharan traders, or possibly a decline in the latter due to worsening climate might be an additional incentive. Although IIRC the initial Ghanian empire was more along the upper Niger and in the Sahel region rather than on the Guinea coast so early trips to that region could be rather disappointing for them.
The other issue is probably that a divided empire, or one that's markedly weaker because its lost much of the very wealthy east and trade links beyond it is going to be facing a real rival and hence under more pressure to innovate so its more likely that people in it including at least some leaders, will look at new ideas like this.
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