Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 27, 2019 19:37:49 GMT
They predicted many things ranging from flying cars and commonplace robotic servants, to a nuclear holocaust and a forevermore-ravaged Eurasia. But the emergence of unforeseen phenomena like the internet, smart devices and continued ( though overall lesser) strife that still plagues the human race has thus far proven otherwise. So, how would 1950s and/or '60s society react to the 21st Century as it actually turns out? As this thread isn't exclusively about downtimers' responses to 2019, I hope to keep this thread going for at least a few more years (and if we're lucky, decades). Thank you in advance, Zyobot
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 4, 2019 1:50:46 GMT
For one, I suppose that once they get past the rather...disappointing aspects of OTL 21st Century, they'll be amazed and fascinated by modern computing power--now so expansive and proliferous that billions of people today carry these small, omni-purpose computers called "smartphones" pretty much wherever they go, as well as "tablets" and "PCs", with desktop versions being reserved for permanent sit-down areas. Both social media and the internet as a whole would undoubtedly be the stuff of sci-fi for the Average Joe, and I bet that the extent to which they've grown, developed and spread by 2019+ would catch professionals off-guard as well.
Hell, even a 2000s-era flip phone would seem straight out of Star Trek to mid-century downtimers.
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James G
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Post by James G on Feb 13, 2019 20:58:13 GMT
'Information overload' might become a pop culture term for those from the past exposed to the wealth of knowledge now available in a near instant.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 13, 2019 21:58:03 GMT
'Information overload' might become a pop culture term for those from the past exposed to the wealth of knowledge now available in a near instant. Heh. I wonder if it might soon get shortened to just "infoload", since people would likely get tired of saying two words to describe the shock and awe of all the knowledge in the world being casually and instantaneously accessible to the Average Joe on a 24/7 basis. Lazy, yeah, but an apt term and perhaps a nice eventual addition to the dictionary nonetheless. I think I have a decent idea of what downtimer youth would make of digital technologies and the WWW that we uptimers take for granted today, but what about older people from back then, i.e. the moral guardians and late 1800s-born elderly? The response by the mid-century US government would also be worth discussing--especially that of those at the top, by which I mean the various POTUSs and their respective inner circles.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Mar 16, 2019 2:05:16 GMT
No one's replied to this thread in a while, which is why I'll be the first to rectify that. Sooner or later, the downtimers will come across modern media--both much more advanced TV, movies and conventional news reporting, and the ever-piling digital contents on some out-of-this-world doohickey called "the internet". I'd also like to see what they make of pop cultural phenomena that, while new and alien to them, would be old hat by our current 21st Century standards. For example, their reactions to this:
Or this, which conveniently (though not thoroughly) summarizes key events that have taken place during and since the '50s/60s up to 1989:
In regards to technology, even a 2000s-era flip phone would seem straight out of sci-fi to them--not to mention web-connected devices like smartphones, iPads and personal computers (and to some extent, robots and other such automated systems!).
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Jul 26, 2021 0:16:33 GMT
They predicted many things ranging from flying cars and commonplace robotic servants, to a nuclear holocaust and a forevermore-ravaged Eurasia. But the emergence of unforeseen phenomena like the internet, smart devices and continued ( though overall lesser) strife that still plagues the human race has thus far proven otherwise. So, how would 1950s and/or '60s society react to the 21st Century as it actually turns out? As this thread isn't exclusively about downtimers' responses to 2019, I hope to keep this thread going for at least a few more years (and if we're lucky, decades). Thank you in advance, Zyobot Well I think that for the kids and teens of the 1950-1960s the fact that we have a workable virtual reality headset that is fairly affordable to us would be truly alien. Hell gaming as a whole would be worth a few minutes of talking by them becuase gaming at this time was the stuff of computer geeks working on room-sized things that had phonebook-sized user manuals and had at most a few megabytes to work with. I think the computers at NASA had something like 6-8 megabytes and it was top of the line stuff back in their day. Today that kind of thing wouldn't even be found on a low end calculator. Something that is also worth keeping in mind is that a greeting card today has more computing power than the Apollo missions did in the 1960s and we just toss them in the bin after the song is played in the thousands par year. Put that on an Apollo rocket and a ton of headaches just disappear becuase you can hold everything all at once. Put a low end laptop on one and I'm fairly sure it'll fly itself. Just think how great the video would be for the first Moon walk. Neil Armstrong taking the first steps on the Moon in beautiful 4K resolution. It goes without saying that if the world saw what we had in 2019-2021 we would likely be having people on the Moon like in For All Mankind but with the whole world taken part becuase the USSR knows they fall apart and the US knows they won the Space Race. Also with everything they could see in old videos of joint missions I think the door is open to seeing that kind of thing exist in this world's 1960s.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 26, 2021 1:23:12 GMT
I think for most people, the technology would not be a factor or something they could comprehend in the same fashion. These are folk from an era before any sort of video games, colour television or even really a widespread knowledge of computers. It seems that you are looking at things through the lense of a modern youngster and digital native. There are a lot of people even today who have no knowledge or interest in gaming, the internet, smart phones or social media.
There was a much clearer distinction between youth and adulthood back then, rather than the eternal teenagers of today. Even then, there would still be a great deal of confusion and disappointment that, for all its wonders, the 21st century is so limited, inward looking, self-obsessed and wrought by strifes utterly beyond their experience or imagining. Given the declining rate of knowledge, both general and specific, they would be quite surprised by how stupid many people are.
If you had told me of it back in the 1980s, then for the most part, I would have told you to keep that future, as it had nothing of real interest.
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Jul 26, 2021 3:15:46 GMT
I think for most people, the technology would not be a factor or something they could comprehend in the same fashion. These are folk from an era before any sort of video games, color television or even really a widespread knowledge of computers. It seems that you are looking at things through the lens of a modern youngster and digital native. There are a lot of people even today who have no knowledge or interest in gaming, the internet, smart phones or social media. There was a much clearer distinction between youth and adulthood back then, rather than the eternal teenagers of today. Even then, there would still be a great deal of confusion and disappointment that, for all its wonders, the 21st century is so limited, inward looking, self-obsessed and wrought by strife utterly beyond their experience or imagining. Given the declining rate of knowledge, both general and specific, they would be quite surprised by how stupid many people are. If you had told me of it back in the 1980s, then for the most part, I would have told you to keep that future, as it had nothing of real interest. While I agree that gaming, at least in any form we today would know it as wasn't around a case can and I feel should be made that people were toying around with the idea of basic "games" on those dinosaur computers. Sure the games would be basic and dull to watch today but just becuase it wasn't on a tv that doesn't mean it wasn't an idea in the minds of 20 somethings in the 1950-60s. If we use this video as a starting point the kids of the time we are talking about may not even have been born yet. Pong is seen as the first game by many people and while it does have a place I'm of the mind that we should look to the roots. For me the start of gaming is in the days of World War 2. The first generation of gaming consoles may have been in the 1970s the idea to have things on a screen that you can play with is an idea that dates back at least 20-30 years beforehand. As somebody who enjoys playing video games I felt I should at least reply to that part of your post. I will not say much about the other bits becuase I know far too little to have any right doing so.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 26, 2021 6:20:51 GMT
The ideas that became the first generation of video games were around in the 1950s and 1960s, but in an embryonic stage. It also stretches the definition of "20 somethings" extremely far - the only people in that category were computer science students at a limited number of American and British universities.
We have two publicly exhibited novelty computer games in Britain and Canada in the 1950s that can't really be characterised as being at the cutting edge of the zeitgeist. All of the other embryonic games were on university mainframes, in some cases for student use and in one case (Tennis for Two) to entertain visitors at open days.
It really isn't until the introduction of electronic arcade games in the 1970s that we see a bleed through into youth culture, followed by the birth of video games and the personal microcomputer.
Video games were an idea in this period, but one so young and limited that it can be compared to a twinkling in the milkman's eye rather than even embryonic for the vast majority of the period.
Should you take an 18 year old from 1957 or 1964, they'd be astounded that everyday people carry in their pockets a device more powerful than any computer in the world, but not truly shocked - after all, the futurism and fiction of the time openly predicted various miraculous developments. They would be shocked at what many people (not all) use it for - sharing vacuous photographs, pornography and conspiracy to name but a few.
The biggest difference that would be apparent to them is the lack of the same separation between adults and children, with the new 'teenagers' of the 1950s not really expecting that their fashion, language, music, films and culture would be subsume the 'adult world' wholesale. The level of sexualisation and profanity would come as a great shock.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jul 26, 2021 7:45:32 GMT
In the socio-cultural aspect, the 1950s-60s people would be in shock knowing that African-Americans have held positions in power.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 26, 2021 8:38:11 GMT
Extremely American-centric, but not really accurate at all. There had been a black general in 1940, a USAF general in 1959 and a naval captain in 1961. The first black senator was in 1967 and there had been Congressmen since the 1920s.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jul 28, 2021 16:53:50 GMT
Extremely American-centric, but not really accurate at all. There had been a black general in 1940, a USAF general in 1959 and a naval captain in 1961. The first black senator was in 1967 and there had been Congressmen since the 1920s. In that case, would a black president come across as the natural culmination of nonwhite Americans gaining more positions of power over the years? Or, would it still be surprising, albeit with the shock somewhat "dampened" by the knowledge that everything else you've listed has already happened? I think for most people, the technology would not be a factor or something they could comprehend in the same fashion. These are folk from an era before any sort of video games, colour television or even really a widespread knowledge of computers. It seems that you are looking at things through the lense of a modern youngster and digital native. There are a lot of people even today who have no knowledge or interest in gaming, the internet, smart phones or social media. There was a much clearer distinction between youth and adulthood back then, rather than the eternal teenagers of today. Even then, there would still be a great deal of confusion and disappointment that, for all its wonders, the 21st century is so limited, inward looking, self-obsessed and wrought by strifes utterly beyond their experience or imagining. Given the declining rate of knowledge, both general and specific, they would be quite surprised by how stupid many people are. If you had told me of it back in the 1980s, then for the most part, I would have told you to keep that future, as it had nothing of real interest. In fairness, I wonder if Millennials and Gen Z'ers being "eternal teenagers" has much to do with their economic conditions, given how the Great Recession and Student Debt Crisis screwed them over. When your paycheck doesn't go as far as your parents' did when they were your age, it's much more expensive to buy a house or start a family. Ditto with higher education having become far more costly in recent decades, with lots of young people being pressured to go leaving them saddled with way less manageable debt than their parents had. While these factors don't discount personal responsibility completely, they're still relevant, and--despite being a black sheep among them, in certain ways--I can see why my fellow Millennials and Gen Z'ers tire of Baby Boomers complaining about kids these days being "lazy" or "irresponsible" (which still exist, but not without important context that more shouty, less thoughtful Boomers tend to miss). Hopefully, downtimers would give these factors appropriate weight when trying to make heads or tails of tomorrow's youth.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 28, 2021 18:01:53 GMT
Firstly, I think it would still be surprising to some degree, given the relative position of blacks at the time. Secondly, my observations on eternal teenagers weren’t directed at the millennials or the follow on kids, but at the generation that started it - the Baby Boomers. The following generations have continued on that path, but the rot started there. It was normalised and indeed held up on high by a culture that began to worship youth to an unhealthy extent. spectator.org/the-teening-of-america/Whilst a bit polemical at times, many of the observations made there concur with my point. I don’t really view the Great Recession or getting a lot of student debt for less than useful degrees as global issues, but rather a very American preoccupation. Inflation and wage increases occurring at different levels is a factor, but not one that traps young men and women existentially. There are always options of what not to spend on.With regard to college debt, far too many people, not just in America, are going to university. Their grades and intellectual capacity don’t really merit it. Even then, there are many dead end courses that accrue debt but don’t offer the type of well paying job to pay it off; on the flip side, the US student debt situation is far from logical or just. In any event, that was not the generation I was aiming at.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jul 28, 2021 19:43:19 GMT
Thanks for the clarification. Don't have time to write a detailed reply that covers all those bases right now, but do have a couple things to add. I definitely see what you mean when claim it's polemic. It did get me thinking a bit, but I think there were cases where they framed certain observations in a needlessly uncharitable light. For example, "Google", "tweet", and "text" help specify whether you're writing via internet browsing, text message, or posting on social media, since the number of specific "categories" of writing that exist now means that just saying "writing" isn't terribly specific. I'm not sure where they got the news anchors using the words "bad guys" from, though looking back at broadcasts from thirty or forty years ago, I definitely concur that language has been "dumbed down" significantly (much to the chagrin of my inner writer ). More broadly, though, I don't suppose you've had a look at the '1950s People React To YouTube' thread over on AH.com? For obvious reasons, it dovetails with the discussion we've been having over here, and I might just be tempted to create an explicit counterpart to it on Alternate Timelines sometime soon.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 29, 2021 1:46:06 GMT
Looking at your chosen example, I do not see the pressing utility for differentiation of types of writing; furthermore, the main point was the 'babyish' sound of the business and application names. That, while basically correct on a factual level, was one of the sections I'd classify as polemical, as it doesn't really add to his argument in a substantive way.
It is not just news anchors dumbing down, but general public discourse. If we examine political speeches, newspaper articles and telecast news, there is a much lower general sophistication of language, concepts and presumed general knowledge. This is accompanied by far greater use and lack of censorship of profanity.
Just looking at the first page, there seems to be a pattern of 'YouTube good; 50s bad; censorship bad' coming through.
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