stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 21, 2018 11:34:53 GMT
I don't think so at this point. It was 2-3 years later we really started breaking the codes regularly. If we knew what wavelength it was working on there might be the possibility of an intercept but that would only give a bearing for the ship and you would need two or more locations detecting such a message to get a full location. I think the supply ships kept to specific areas, probably pretty far from the main trade routes to avoid detection and if the raider knows this it should be able to get a message through for a meeting.
Doubt many German tanks where out there in December 1939- January 1940.
I think there were some supply ships pre-positioned as the Germans knew war was likely. What they could have supplied and how effectively I don't know? Suspect not 11" shells but probably food, spares and fuel although whether they would need to find a quiet harbour somewhere for that as refueling at sea in the southern ocean could be difficult. Note that on the Wiki account it said there was some difficult for Ajax refueling and that was in the estuary of the River Plate.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 21, 2018 11:41:57 GMT
Doubt many German tanks where out there in December 1939- January 1940. I think there were some supply ships pre-positioned as the Germans knew war was likely. What they could have supplied and how effectively I don't know? Suspect not 11" shells but probably food, spares and fuel although whether they would need to find a quiet harbour somewhere for that as refueling at sea in the southern ocean could be difficult. Note that on the Wiki account it said there was some difficult for Ajax refueling and that was in the estuary of the River Plate.
Could the Graf Spee not have fled to Brazil ore Argentina, ore would they be interned there as well.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 21, 2018 11:47:51 GMT
I think there were some supply ships pre-positioned as the Germans knew war was likely. What they could have supplied and how effectively I don't know? Suspect not 11" shells but probably food, spares and fuel although whether they would need to find a quiet harbour somewhere for that as refueling at sea in the southern ocean could be difficult. Note that on the Wiki account it said there was some difficult for Ajax refueling and that was in the estuary of the River Plate.
Could the Graf Spee not have fled to Brazil ore Argentina, ore would they be interned there as well.
They would have been interned there if they hadn't left within the legally required time. Which varied somewhat given the use of sailings of British or French merchant-ships to prevent a legal departure by the ship.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 21, 2018 11:53:06 GMT
Could the Graf Spee not have fled to Brazil ore Argentina, ore would they be interned there as well. They would have been interned there if they hadn't left within the legally required time. Which varied somewhat given the use of sailings of British or French merchant-ships to prevent a legal departure by the ship.
A read about this, the British used this tactic to send British merchants one after another as they knew that the Graf Spee had to wait 24 hours until they could intercept them, ore am i wrong.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 22, 2018 0:08:02 GMT
They would have been interned there if they hadn't left within the legally required time. Which varied somewhat given the use of sailings of British or French merchant-ships to prevent a legal departure by the ship.
A read about this, the British used this tactic to send British merchants one after another as they knew that the Graf Spee had to wait 24 hours until they could intercept them, ore am i wrong.
Yes that was the case. Initially Britain wanted the Spee out after the minimal period allowed for emergency repairs under international law but then presumably the Admiralty pointed out that especially before the Cumberland arrives there wasn't sufficient forces to realistically fight it and it would be better waiting for overwhelming forces to arrive. Under international law such a warship couldn't leave a neutral port within 24 hours of a merchant from an hostile power, to give the latter a chance to escape so Britain, which had a lot of trade in the area started arranging for some of the ships in the region to sail at 24 hour intervals. Not sure if when the Spee finally left port, only to scuttle itself that was in breach of those rules or Britain didn't have any more merchantmen in Montevideo.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 22, 2018 10:49:16 GMT
A read about this, the British used this tactic to send British merchants one after another as they knew that the Graf Spee had to wait 24 hours until they could intercept them, ore am i wrong. Yes that was the case. Initially Britain wanted the Spee out after the minimal period allowed for emergency repairs under international law but then presumably the Admiralty pointed out that especially before the Cumberland arrives there wasn't sufficient forces to realistically fight it and it would be better waiting for overwhelming forces to arrive. Under international law such a warship couldn't leave a neutral port within 24 hours of a merchant from an hostile power, to give the latter a chance to escape so Britain, which had a lot of trade in the area started arranging for some of the ships in the region to sail at 24 hour intervals. Not sure if when the Spee finally left port, only to scuttle itself that was in breach of those rules or Britain didn't have any more merchantmen in Montevideo.
So would have matter if the British did not do this tactic of sending merchant ships out to sea.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 22, 2018 12:52:36 GMT
Yes that was the case. Initially Britain wanted the Spee out after the minimal period allowed for emergency repairs under international law but then presumably the Admiralty pointed out that especially before the Cumberland arrives there wasn't sufficient forces to realistically fight it and it would be better waiting for overwhelming forces to arrive. Under international law such a warship couldn't leave a neutral port within 24 hours of a merchant from an hostile power, to give the latter a chance to escape so Britain, which had a lot of trade in the area started arranging for some of the ships in the region to sail at 24 hour intervals. Not sure if when the Spee finally left port, only to scuttle itself that was in breach of those rules or Britain didn't have any more merchantmen in Montevideo.
So would have matter if the British did not do this tactic of sending merchant ships out to sea.
Guessing you mean what would have happened? If the Graf Spee leaves port before the big fleet arrives on the 19th Dec, and does intend to fight - i.e. doesn't get mislead by reports of more RN ships being present their facing Cumberland, Ajax and Achilles. Also on the 15th Ajax was refueled and Achilles on the 17th so the exact timing of what Graf Spee leaves port is important. The RN will have warning as spectators and media can see the ship preparing to sail and then actually leaving port. If the Graf Spee sails on the historical time, i.e. late on the 17th and the scuttling actually very early on the 18th then you could have another battle similar to the previous one, i.e. history books will have River Plate battles 1 and 2.
Overall the RN would probably be stronger in this 2nd encounter as the Graf Spee is low on ammo, especially the 11" guns whereas Cumberland has 8x8" as opposed to Exeter's 6x8". The Ajax and Achilles have suffered some damage and are relatively low on ammo but would expect at the very least Graf Spee to exhaust her 11" and possibly also her 6" ammo and take further damage even if they get away. I would expect Harwood would fight as before, splitting the enemy fire by operating as two squadrons. Alternatively, knowing that there are substantial reinforcements less than a couple of days away and that they have refueled and have a/c, he could decide to track the Graf Spee in the exception of maintaining contact until Ark and Renown and the cruisers are in range. There is a risk that the Graf Spee could break contact in the night and not be found the following day, despite the a/c so I would expect Harwood to go for a battle.
Steve
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paul
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Post by paul on Dec 22, 2018 22:30:52 GMT
Three Dithmarschen tankers were at sea , one dedicated to each raider, plus at least another dozen in N Atlantic. Getting home was not a problem. Raeder was reading most WALLIE codes through B-Dienst CODE CRACKING , so he new most naval ships at sea. He also developed an SOP for this type of Problem. Prior to raiders returning - other major warships [capital/cruisers & DD], would surge into local waters to draw RN attention away long enough for the raider to sneak home.
Again while Harwood cruisers could outrun AGS [30 knots vs 25 knots] , they only had fuel for a couple of days pursuit , so AGS could be out run.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 23, 2018 0:58:21 GMT
Three Dithmarschen tankers were at sea , one dedicated to each raider, plus at least another dozen in N Atlantic. Getting home was not a problem. Raeder was reading most WALLIE codes through B-Dienst CODE CRACKING , so he new most naval ships at sea. He also developed an SOP for this type of Problem. Prior to raiders returning - other major warships [capital/cruisers & DD], would surge into local waters to draw RN attention away long enough for the raider to sneak home. Again while Harwood cruisers could outrun AGS [30 knots vs 25 knots] , they only had fuel for a couple of days pursuit , so AGS could be out run.
Paul
a) On the additional dozen tankers are you sure your not thinking of those sent out a few years later in 41/42?
b) Possibly they might be short of fuel if the Graf Spee goes out almost immediately but by the 15th Ajax has refueled and Cumberland has arrived and two days later the Achilles has also refueled. As such and while the Plate estuary is large its still fairly enclosed and restricted by sandbanks. Plus given that the RN will know as soon as it leaves the port I suspect that even at night its going to have problems dodging Harwood's forces, which at the minimum will exhaust most of its ammo including all its 11" stuff and inflict further damage. The ship will be further slowed by the existing bow damage, especially in bad weather.
Steve
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paul
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Post by paul on Dec 25, 2018 2:48:04 GMT
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 25, 2018 10:06:04 GMT
Paul
I know the Germans had some supply ships out, the Spee had the Altmark of course and probably some tankers in per-positioned locations. You said one tanker had been allocated to the Spee but how often had it been used already and where was it hiding? If the Spee is being tracked its not going to be able to meet up with the tanker and refuel.
Not saying its impossible but I think the chances of the Spee avoiding combat when it sails is very small and especially if the two CLs have both refueled they should be able to to keep track of it after the battle until the big guys turn up, especially if their a/c are still available. Which could be a problem for both sides in a night battle as you can't really fly them off before hand and a fragile a/c, especially if it was fueled could be dangerous to the ship if hit.
Steve
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