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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 10, 2018 4:39:05 GMT
When we think of the Normans, they influenced a lot in Western Europe. The region of Normandy emerged as a viking settlement given to Rollo by the Frankish king, and from there the Normans conquered portions of European territory and planted their influence there, from the British Isles to Sicily and even the Middle East.
Could the Varangian Guard, or other Vikings in Byzantine service, be awarded some land within the Byzantine Empire as their own version of Normandy? The whole of Crimea, or even the Byzantine borderlands in Anatolia might be a good place to build a Byzantine "Normandy", where most of the Varangian Guard's troops could be settled.
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kyng
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Post by kyng on Dec 24, 2018 14:10:42 GMT
That's an interesting idea  ! Crimea seems like a safer base for them than the borderlands of Anatolia. If they go with the latter, then they could easily be destroyed in the Battle of Manzikert - and, even if they aren't, they'll be first in the firing line in any future invasions from the East. But, assuming they do survive and get off the ground, an obvious first target would be the various Mediterranean islands that were once under Byzantine control, but by this point no longer are (e.g. Sicily and the Balearic Islands). Who knows - perhaps they could even compete against the Normans in southern Italy? |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 24, 2018 19:08:39 GMT
Crimea or Crete would be safe bets for a Byzantine "Normandy", and it would also affect the trade routes as well. However, Morea might also fit as well.
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kyng
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Post by kyng on Dec 28, 2018 23:55:03 GMT
Yeah, Crete seems ideal, really. Kinda peripheral (so not too much of an inconvenience to Byzantium if they don't control it directly), but also easy to defend. I think I prefer it over Crimea TBH, which is a little too far out of the way for my tastes (especially if we're going to have them expanding into Sicily - which is much closer to Crete or Morea than it is to Crimea)
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 29, 2018 4:09:20 GMT
Yeah, Crete seems ideal, really. Kinda peripheral (so not too much of an inconvenience to Byzantium if they don't control it directly), but also easy to defend. I think I prefer it over Crimea TBH, which is a little too far out of the way for my tastes (especially if we're going to have them expanding into Sicily - which is much closer to Crete or Morea than it is to Crimea) With an additional advantage, Crete would also be a good waypoint between the Byzantines and Fatimid Egypt. Crimea also has the advantage of being close to Kievan Rus' and it also has a large Crimean Goth population there. However, it is also vulnerable to attacks from nomadic tribes. Within Crete, I could see the Varangians apeing their Norman cousins, accepting Greek Orthodoxy and marrying Greek women while either blending their Old Norse dialect with Greek, or the other way around. I am also wondering if the Crimean Goths might be enticed by the Byzantines to resettle in Crete in order to bolster its population there. As for the names, Crete would be a natural name. However, if this hypothetical Greco-Norse state also expanded into the Peloponnese Peninsula, I could either see the names Achaea, Morea or Lakonia as suitable names. On the other hand, Cyprus would also be a good target for expansion as well as Sicily. The ruler though, it might be a haphazard guess, but if Harald Hardrada was persuaded to become the new ruler of Varangian Crete, he might have to drop his claims on the Norwegian throne. I can imagine that Varangian Crete would also have good trading ties to Fatimid Egypt, and they would be the glue that holds a Byzantine-Fatimid alliance together. Attachments:
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 29, 2018 11:41:34 GMT
Yeah, Crete seems ideal, really. Kinda peripheral (so not too much of an inconvenience to Byzantium if they don't control it directly), but also easy to defend. I think I prefer it over Crimea TBH, which is a little too far out of the way for my tastes (especially if we're going to have them expanding into Sicily - which is much closer to Crete or Morea than it is to Crimea) With an additional advantage, Crete would also be a good waypoint between the Byzantines and Fatimid Egypt. Crimea also has the advantage of being close to Kievan Rus' and it also has a large Crimean Goth population there. However, it is also vulnerable to attacks from nomadic tribes. Within Crete, I could see the Varangians apeing their Norman cousins, accepting Greek Orthodoxy and marrying Greek women while either blending their Old Norse dialect with Greek, or the other way around. I am also wondering if the Crimean Goths might be enticed by the Byzantines to resettle in Crete in order to bolster its population there. As for the names, Crete would be a natural name. However, if this hypothetical Greco-Norse state also expanded into the Peloponnese Peninsula, I could either see the names Achaea, Morea or Lakonia as suitable names. On the other hand, Cyprus would also be a good target for expansion as well as Sicily. The ruler though, it might be a haphazard guess, but if Harald Hardrada was persuaded to become the new ruler of Varangian Crete, he might have to drop his claims on the Norwegian throne. I can imagine that Varangian Crete would also have good trading ties to Fatimid Egypt, and they would be the glue that holds a Byzantine-Fatimid alliance together.
a) Well that could be very good for England - and the rest of the British Isles - as without him in Norway William the Foul probably dies on Harold's axe, figuratively if not literally. 
b) I would have thought that if the Varangarian Crete was allied to Fatimid Egypt it would probably mean Egypt and Greece were bitter enemies as the Varangarian state was taking territory from the Greeks and probably also raiding them heavily. Mind you if Hardrada was king he would probably be raiding everybody he could reach.
I think Crete is a better centre for a Varangarian 'empire' or raiding centre as it can potentially range all over the eastern Med whereas the Crimean would be more limited as to where it could attack, only really the Greek empire. However as well as facing a powerful Greek navy with Greek fire, which could be nasty Crete has the traditional problem of earthquakes which would make maintaining a powerful state and navy difficult. Although between powerful quakes it could be pretty powerful and if it expanded to other areas that could give it some redundancy.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 30, 2018 2:35:12 GMT
A) Harold Godwinson would definitely benefit from the absence of a Norwegian invasion of England....or not, since Norway before Harald Hardrada came back was ruled by Magnus the Good. So there is a chance that Magnus would continue to hold on to both Norway and Denmark.
B) Anatolia might also be a good expansion target for the Varangian Cretan state. However, what is not mentioned here is that Bulgaria will definitely be a good ally of Varangian Crete. So you may have a potential alliance of Bulgaria, Varangian Crete and Fatimid Egypt against the Byzantines. However, the Varangian Cretan state would have to remain loyal to Byzantium (the ones who are granted land in Crete would be the majority of the Varangian Guard), kinda like how the Normans would have professed loyalty to the kings of West Francia.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 30, 2018 10:39:02 GMT
A) Harold Godwinson would definitely benefit from the absence of a Norwegian invasion of England....or not, since Norway before Harald Hardrada came back was ruled by Magnus the Good. So there is a chance that Magnus would continue to hold on to both Norway and Denmark. B) Anatolia might also be a good expansion target for the Varangian Cretan state. However, what is not mentioned here is that Bulgaria will definitely be a good ally of Varangian Crete. So you may have a potential alliance of Bulgaria, Varangian Crete and Fatimid Egypt against the Byzantines. However, the Varangian Cretan state would have to remain loyal to Byzantium (the ones who are granted land in Crete would be the majority of the Varangian Guard), kinda like how the Normans would have professed loyalty to the kings of West Francia.
a) Possibly or possibly Denmark would seek independence anyway. As long as, other butterflies permitting, when William makes a bid to seize England Harold doesn't have another invasion on his back.
b) Good point, I forgot about the Bulgarians. Definitely an issue before Basil II crushed them. The Varangians might pay lip service to the empire at 1st, just as Rollo did when he 1st got Normandy but was presuming it was established the same way as Normandy was, i.e. a local ruler, in this case the emperor - or one claiment to it - offers the Rus lands to stop them bloody raiding.
Mind you in those circumstances that would make more sense in terms of the Crimean region or somewhere else on the Black Sea because there they might provide a buffer whereas in Crete as well as posing a potential threat themselves there in the wrong position to block off other Rus attackers. There is another problem with Crete I just thought of. Unless they are on good terms with the empire their going to have difficulty getting new recruits from the north past the straits.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 30, 2018 17:58:21 GMT
That is why I don't think that the Varangian Cretan state would betray its patron. The Varangian Guard is still oath bound to remain loyal to the Byzantines. That being said, a surviving Harold Godwinson would prevent the exodus of Anglo-Saxons because of no Norman conquest.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 30, 2018 18:42:49 GMT
That is why I don't think that the Varangian Cretan state would betray its patron. The Varangian Guard is still oath bound to remain loyal to the Byzantines. That being said, a surviving Harold Godwinson would prevent the exodus of Anglo-Saxons because of no Norman conquest.
True on both points. Although if options in the west are drying up and a strong England and Normandy/France would help in that, then more might be lured eastwards to serve the empire, either directly or as settlers/recruits to the Cretan satellite. That could make up for the lack of English recruits.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 30, 2018 21:01:46 GMT
Ironically, there might also be a potential scenario for the recruitment of Normans into the Varangian Guard, though it would also result in the large scale settlement of Normans in Byzantine territory.
I also mentioned that Cyprus would have been a good place for the Varangians to settle as well. The maps that I made would envision a Varangian state that consists of southern Greece, Crete, Cyprus and maybe the territories around Alexandria, Egypt.
That being said, the Varangian state would actually be a good middleman between the Byzantines and the Fatimids. Also, these possibilities could arise in terms of language: either the Varangians adopt the Greek language with heavy loanwords from Old Norse and maybe Old Church Slavonic, or they would keep their Old Norse language, with loanwords from Greek and Old Church Slavonic.
Crimean Goths would also be a good addition to this Varangian state as well, and due to their common background, a fusion of Gothic and Norse cultures wouldn't be hard to accomplish.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jan 13, 2019 1:00:41 GMT
To add to the scenario above, I think that this scenario may be the most plausible for an establishment of a Varangian entity in Crete and the Morea:
George Maniakes revolts against the Byzantines (kinda like OTL, but he survives long enough to win the rebellion and crown himself Byzantine Emperor). Upon his victory and seizure of the Byzantine crown, he awards Harald Hardrada and his friends in the Varangian Guard some land in Crete, where they establish a new settlement there. To bolster the potential growth of Crete and later on the Morea as a major settlement center, Maniakes invites the Crimean Goths, other Vikings from Scandinavia that traveled through Kievan Rus' and even the various East Slavs under Rus' control to settle in Crete and Morea. For his loyalty and valor in battle, George Maniakes grants Harald Hardrada the rank of Vestes or Magistros (a Byzantine court title) of Crete. Eventually over time the Varangians acquire lands in Morea, renaming their holdings to the Lakonia Theme, or maybe the Principality of Lakonia. Lakonia, or the Varangian portion of what is OTL southern Greece, becomes the base from which the Varangians eventually expand their control to the rest of Greece.
The culture of Lakonia, strangely enough, is a mixture of Greek, Nordic, Gothic and to a lesser extent, a bit of Slavic and partial Turkic cultures. Though it recreates the militaristic traditions of ancient Sparta, it is also religiously tolerant (though anti-Jewish prejudices would be strong as well). In Lakonia, the Greek language would be the dominant lingua franca, but an evolution of the Varangian Norse language would involve the fusion of Gothic, Nordic and Slavic dialects into one. Its society would be built primarily on Nordic society, with a major tradition in sailing and raiding. Agriculture would be popular due to the fertile lands of Crete and Morea, while its position in the Eastern Mediterranean allows Lakonia to become the middleman in the trade between Byzantium, Western Europe and the Islamic world. Cyprus would also be acquired by the Varangians to forestall the Normans.
Harald Hardrada himself on the other hand, eventually marries a Byzantine nobleman's daughter and through him, several children would be born, all of whom would play a role in the transformation of the Varangian Guard from a band of mercenaries to influential players in the international arena. One of his descendants though, will stage a claim for the throne of his ancestor's Norwegian state.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 13, 2019 10:47:11 GMT
To add to the scenario above, I think that this scenario may be the most plausible for an establishment of a Varangian entity in Crete and the Morea: George Maniakes revolts against the Byzantines (kinda like OTL, but he survives long enough to win the rebellion and crown himself Byzantine Emperor). Upon his victory and seizure of the Byzantine crown, he awards Harald Hardrada and his friends in the Varangian Guard some land in Crete, where they establish a new settlement there. To bolster the potential growth of Crete and later on the Morea as a major settlement center, Maniakes invites the Crimean Goths, other Vikings from Scandinavia that traveled through Kievan Rus' and even the various East Slavs under Rus' control to settle in Crete and Morea. For his loyalty and valor in battle, George Maniakes grants Harald Hardrada the rank of Vestes or Magistros (a Byzantine court title) of Crete. Eventually over time the Varangians acquire lands in Morea, renaming their holdings to the Lakonia Theme, or maybe the Principality of Lakonia. Lakonia, or the Varangian portion of what is OTL southern Greece, becomes the base from which the Varangians eventually expand their control to the rest of Greece. The culture of Lakonia, strangely enough, is a mixture of Greek, Nordic, Gothic and to a lesser extent, a bit of Slavic and partial Turkic cultures. Though it recreates the militaristic traditions of ancient Sparta, it is also religiously tolerant (though anti-Jewish prejudices would be strong as well). In Lakonia, the Greek language would be the dominant lingua franca, but an evolution of the Varangian Norse language would involve the fusion of Gothic, Nordic and Slavic dialects into one. Its society would be built primarily on Nordic society, with a major tradition in sailing and raiding. Agriculture would be popular due to the fertile lands of Crete and Morea, while its position in the Eastern Mediterranean allows Lakonia to become the middleman in the trade between Byzantium, Western Europe and the Islamic world. Cyprus would also be acquired by the Varangians to forestall the Normans. Harald Hardrada himself on the other hand, eventually marries a Byzantine nobleman's daughter and through him, several children would be born, all of whom would play a role in the transformation of the Varangian Guard from a band of mercenaries to influential players in the international arena. One of his descendants though, will stage a claim for the throne of his ancestor's Norwegian state.
Interesting. I've often played around with a successful Maniakes rebellion as it was probably the best chance for medieval Byzantium to survive and quite possibly prosper. However read once, although might have been a fictional source, can't remember, that as the commander of the Varangian guard he was thought to be implicated in a Rus attack on Constantinople at this time, which IIRC was meant to sack the city while Maniakes's forces were fighting the loyalist ones.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jan 14, 2019 5:43:36 GMT
A successful Maniakes rebellion could have some influence on the outcome of Manzikert, but not enough to stem the tide of the Seljuks who would take advantage of the power vacuum that would arise from the Byzantine defeat. However, judging by how influential the Varangian Guard and their descendants will be, I would suspect that Harald Hardrada's alternate descendants would try to conquer the Georgian statelets and even old Armenia itself, or form an alternate Armenian Cilicia.
That being said, I'm not sure what would be the name of an independent Coptic Christian state in Egypt that would be separate from the Mameluk Sultanate. Although if this hypothetical Coptic state spread into the eastern region of what is OTL Eastern Libya, then Cyrenaica might be the name.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 14, 2019 9:42:02 GMT
A successful Maniakes rebellion could have some influence on the outcome of Manzikert, but not enough to stem the tide of the Seljuks who would take advantage of the power vacuum that would arise from the Byzantine defeat. However, judging by how influential the Varangian Guard and their descendants will be, I would suspect that Harald Hardrada's alternate descendants would try to conquer the Georgian statelets and even old Armenia itself, or form an alternate Armenian Cilicia. That being said, I'm not sure what would be the name of an independent Coptic Christian state in Egypt that would be separate from the Mameluk Sultanate. Although if this hypothetical Coptic state spread into the eastern region of what is OTL Eastern Libya, then Cyrenaica might be the name.
Are you sure about that? The empire was still potentially very powerful and wealthy and with decent leadership that didn't deliberately neglect the military it might still end up defeating the Seljuks and holding onto Anatolia and N Syria. Provided of course it didn't get too heavily bogged down in fighting in Italy or in internal problems.
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