stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on Aug 25, 2019 9:39:34 GMT
Automation is going to lead to more jobs, so it's hard to tell given the relatively independent nature of stances on immigration.
Is it, especially if as seems likely expert systems and other AI developments means that a lot of intellectual tasks that were previously thought immune from automation would be affected? We would have a desire to find new 'jobs' or at least activities and ways of supporting very large numbers of people but that may not necessarily mean anything like traditional full time employment, even with say a much shorter working week. Also if we're talking about the west and especially the Anglosphere it would need a major change in the stance on people over the last few decades.
|
|
|
Post by EwellHolmes on Aug 25, 2019 17:53:14 GMT
Automation is going to lead to more jobs, so it's hard to tell given the relatively independent nature of stances on immigration.
Is it, especially if as seems likely expert systems and other AI developments means that a lot of intellectual tasks that were previously thought immune from automation would be affected? We would have a desire to find new 'jobs' or at least activities and ways of supporting very large numbers of people but that may not necessarily mean anything like traditional full time employment, even with say a much shorter working week. Also if we're talking about the west and especially the Anglosphere it would need a major change in the stance on people over the last few decades.
Advances in automation have been always led to greater employment in manufacturing, for example. Once the developments we are expecting come into fruition and are sufficiently commercialized, we shall see this play out again; in particular because the outsourcing focus will no longer be sustainable. It barely is now, because with productivity factored in China is only 4% cheaper than making things in the United States labor wise.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on Aug 25, 2019 20:27:58 GMT
Is it, especially if as seems likely expert systems and other AI developments means that a lot of intellectual tasks that were previously thought immune from automation would be affected? We would have a desire to find new 'jobs' or at least activities and ways of supporting very large numbers of people but that may not necessarily mean anything like traditional full time employment, even with say a much shorter working week. Also if we're talking about the west and especially the Anglosphere it would need a major change in the stance on people over the last few decades.
Advances in automation have been always led to greater employment in manufacturing, for example. Once the developments we are expecting come into fruition and are sufficiently commercialized, we shall see this play out again; in particular because the outsourcing focus will no longer be sustainable. It barely is now, because with productivity factored in China is only 4% cheaper than making things in the United States labor wise.
Not sure why you say that? In the early industrial period industrial employment greatly increased in Great Britain and later in other countries as they developed in turn. In part because they were exporting massive amounts to elsewhere in the world and in part because of the growth of new markets. However employment in manufacturing has declined in most countries with the bulk of employment in the service sector. I can't see greater automation reversing that in industry and if automation and AI really develops as many expect the service sector will come under increasing pressure.
I agree that some areas could see some increase in manufacting workforce IF they push automation and more efficient production methods, which means they considerably increase their share of world production, as Japan did in the 1960-80s AND if other nations/blocs allows them to do that. However the net employment in industry is likely to decline compared to the total work population.
|
|
|
Post by EwellHolmes on Aug 28, 2019 3:31:34 GMT
Advances in automation have been always led to greater employment in manufacturing, for example. Once the developments we are expecting come into fruition and are sufficiently commercialized, we shall see this play out again; in particular because the outsourcing focus will no longer be sustainable. It barely is now, because with productivity factored in China is only 4% cheaper than making things in the United States labor wise.
Not sure why you say that? In the early industrial period industrial employment greatly increased in Great Britain and later in other countries as they developed in turn. In part because they were exporting massive amounts to elsewhere in the world and in part because of the growth of new markets. However employment in manufacturing has declined in most countries with the bulk of employment in the service sector. I can't see greater automation reversing that in industry and if automation and AI really develops as many expect the service sector will come under increasing pressure.
I agree that some areas could see some increase in manufacting workforce IF they push automation and more efficient production methods, which means they considerably increase their share of world production, as Japan did in the 1960-80s AND if other nations/blocs allows them to do that. However the net employment in industry is likely to decline compared to the total work population.
MANUFACTURING THE FUTURE: Why Reindustrialization Is the Road to Recovery by Mark Levinson, New Labor Forum, Vol. 21, No. 3 (Fall 2012), pp. 10-15 Manhattan Institute
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on Aug 28, 2019 8:52:01 GMT
Not sure why you say that? In the early industrial period industrial employment greatly increased in Great Britain and later in other countries as they developed in turn. In part because they were exporting massive amounts to elsewhere in the world and in part because of the growth of new markets. However employment in manufacturing has declined in most countries with the bulk of employment in the service sector. I can't see greater automation reversing that in industry and if automation and AI really develops as many expect the service sector will come under increasing pressure.
I agree that some areas could see some increase in manufacting workforce IF they push automation and more efficient production methods, which means they considerably increase their share of world production, as Japan did in the 1960-80s AND if other nations/blocs allows them to do that. However the net employment in industry is likely to decline compared to the total work population.
MANUFACTURING THE FUTURE: Why Reindustrialization Is the Road to Recovery by Mark Levinson, New Labor Forum, Vol. 21, No. 3 (Fall 2012), pp. 10-15 Manhattan Institute
ep
Yes total manufacturing employment did grow in the post-war decades but that was probably in large part because there was a greater increase in world trade and hence markets as more areas came fully into the world market. With the final conversion of the US to free trade and its unparalleled power you saw a considerable expansion in world trade, especially after the devastation of WWII. However did manufacturing employment in the established western powers grow as a percentage of total employment? It would have done in other countries, such as in east Asia which were developing for the 1st time - or in Japan's case rebuilding after WWII's devastation but that's a different matter.
Where the article mentions employment between 47-72 rose by 3 million is that manufacturing employment in the US? Totals would have risen far more in the world as a whole so I suspect so. During the same period didn't the total population rise considerably as well? So I'm not surprised that the total figure increased but how was it in comparison to the total population. As the 2nd article also says in the 21st century the US lost 5 million manufacturing jobs, because output rose but a much lower rate than increases in productivity. Wasn't this because - the 2008 depression aside - there was a substantial growth in imports from elsewhere, especially China. I.e. output did rise dramatically, just not in the US. What we would need to know is what the leave of productivity rise and of automation in China for instance.
As it says in the last paragraph the US is lagging behind major competitors in automation which is a factor in the job losses as others are getting greater productivity gains and hence the increases in output and employment. Basically you can't protect against job losses by not automating because someone else will.
As it says earlier it needs a increase in total output as well as productivity for the benefits to be recived by workers as well. However in a world where that output increase in dominated by E Asia then other areas will suffer.
Got to go now.
Steve
|
|
|
Post by EwellHolmes on Aug 28, 2019 17:27:29 GMT
MANUFACTURING THE FUTURE: Why Reindustrialization Is the Road to Recovery by Mark Levinson, New Labor Forum, Vol. 21, No. 3 (Fall 2012), pp. 10-15 Manhattan Institute
ep
Yes total manufacturing employment did grow in the post-war decades but that was probably in large part because there was a greater increase in world trade and hence markets as more areas came fully into the world market. With the final conversion of the US to free trade and its unparalleled power you saw a considerable expansion in world trade, especially after the devastation of WWII. However did manufacturing employment in the established western powers grow as a percentage of total employment? It would have done in other countries, such as in east Asia which were developing for the 1st time - or in Japan's case rebuilding after WWII's devastation but that's a different matter.
Where the article mentions employment between 47-72 rose by 3 million is that manufacturing employment in the US? Totals would have risen far more in the world as a whole so I suspect so. During the same period didn't the total population rise considerably as well? So I'm not surprised that the total figure increased but how was it in comparison to the total population. As the 2nd article also says in the 21st century the US lost 5 million manufacturing jobs, because output rose but a much lower rate than increases in productivity. Wasn't this because - the 2008 depression aside - there was a substantial growth in imports from elsewhere, especially China. I.e. output did rise dramatically, just not in the US. What we would need to know is what the leave of productivity rise and of automation in China for instance.
As it says in the last paragraph the US is lagging behind major competitors in automation which is a factor in the job losses as others are getting greater productivity gains and hence the increases in output and employment. Basically you can't protect against job losses by not automating because someone else will.
As it says earlier it needs a increase in total output as well as productivity for the benefits to be recived by workers as well. However in a world where that output increase in dominated by E Asia then other areas will suffer.
Got to go now.
Steve The main issue is indeed a lack of automation and thus output; the United States only has 100 robots per 10,000 workers, while places like South Korea have over 700. If the U.S. would automate more, than total industrial employment would skyrocket.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on Aug 29, 2019 14:58:11 GMT
ep
Yes total manufacturing employment did grow in the post-war decades but that was probably in large part because there was a greater increase in world trade and hence markets as more areas came fully into the world market. With the final conversion of the US to free trade and its unparalleled power you saw a considerable expansion in world trade, especially after the devastation of WWII. However did manufacturing employment in the established western powers grow as a percentage of total employment? It would have done in other countries, such as in east Asia which were developing for the 1st time - or in Japan's case rebuilding after WWII's devastation but that's a different matter.
Where the article mentions employment between 47-72 rose by 3 million is that manufacturing employment in the US? Totals would have risen far more in the world as a whole so I suspect so. During the same period didn't the total population rise considerably as well? So I'm not surprised that the total figure increased but how was it in comparison to the total population. As the 2nd article also says in the 21st century the US lost 5 million manufacturing jobs, because output rose but a much lower rate than increases in productivity. Wasn't this because - the 2008 depression aside - there was a substantial growth in imports from elsewhere, especially China. I.e. output did rise dramatically, just not in the US. What we would need to know is what the leave of productivity rise and of automation in China for instance.
As it says in the last paragraph the US is lagging behind major competitors in automation which is a factor in the job losses as others are getting greater productivity gains and hence the increases in output and employment. Basically you can't protect against job losses by not automating because someone else will.
As it says earlier it needs a increase in total output as well as productivity for the benefits to be recived by workers as well. However in a world where that output increase in dominated by E Asia then other areas will suffer.
Got to go now.
Steve The main issue is indeed a lack of automation and thus output; the United States only has 100 robots per 10,000 workers, while places like South Korea have over 700. If the U.S. would automate more, than total industrial employment would skyrocket.
ep
If the US had a lot more automation and managed to use it efficiently - as the former doesn't always result in the latter, then its overall production in the affected industries and related ones is likely to be increased. However this would only result in a significant increase in industrial employment in the US if one of two -or possibly both - conditions were met. a) The US's proportion of total world industrial output increased considerably - i.e it was expanding at the cost of someone else. b) Some side result of this increased automation increases the total world market demand. This can occur but again won't automatically be the case.
Steve
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2020 1:27:45 GMT
If automation does lead a significant part of the population to the way of the horse (they did not get lazy, just outmatched), permanentily unemployed we will get UBI (Universal Basic Income) and it will lead to much more restrictions on immigration, if it does not however, is very hard to tell as we could see the economic adjustment pains putting borders up, or more productivity leading to more relaxed policies.
|
|
dayton3
Chief petty officer
Posts: 118
Likes: 26
|
Post by dayton3 on Feb 5, 2020 15:30:00 GMT
Mass automation taking away more jobs than they help create is very unlikely and has never actually happened in the modern world before. Thus it is unlikely to happen in the future.
|
|
dayton3
Chief petty officer
Posts: 118
Likes: 26
|
Post by dayton3 on Feb 5, 2020 15:31:40 GMT
Also note, while Artificial Intelligence is a science fiction staple and a favorite boogaboo for many futurists, it is as likely to never be achieved as it is to be achieved. Certainly in the foreseeable future
|
|
|
Post by alternatehistoryfox on Nov 25, 2020 2:07:53 GMT
Automation is going to lead to more jobs, so it's hard to tell given the relatively independent nature of stances on immigration. Not really, for that is based upon the Industrial Revolution paradigm of artificial muscle automation. The sad thing is, the paradigm we're facing now is digital minds instead of just dumb muscle. We're seeing computer programs that will simply look at what sort of work the workers are doing, learn from said workers, and then do it 10x better for IT and electricity costs.
|
|