|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Dec 1, 2023 15:58:17 GMT
Steve, 1.) The England soccer team are quite powerful, including some players who historically qualified for other Home Nations under some advantageous rules interpretations. As of 1972, going into the 1974 World Cup, they have the gracefully aging Duncan Edwards at 36, Geoff Hurst and George Best, Bobby Moore, Gordon Banks, Kevin Keegan and Martin Peters, among others. The teams who will qualify for the 1974 World Cup are England, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden, Austria-Hungary, France and the Soviet Union; Israel; the United States of America; South Africa; Australia; Argentina, Brazil, Chile and Uruguay. This sets the stage for an interesting USA vs USSR game 2.) Some parallel to the Amin happenings, but not quite on the same level. Uganda is officially a self-governing Dominion, but for the former African colonies, the better term is "self-governing (African) Dominion*", as Britain is very willing to intervene as far as necessary if any red lines are crossed. 3.) It will definitely lead to advances in player care across multiple sports, but here as in other forums, a particular potential consequence is being missed - the effective end/banning of American gridiron. 4.) Absolutely. Nauru is a basket case in @ due to the combination of a wrecked island, too much money at the wrong time and a lack of gainful things to do; all of this won't happen here. 5.) Not quite. It is a means of practicing emergency home defence in the event of a nuclear attack and afterwards, opening the door to a paradigm that didn't exist in @ - a protracted world war involving all kinds of weapons, but also the means to counter/eliminate some of those weapons. The results are very difficult to predict, hence training employs some very radical scenarios in order to train up the 'out of the box' thinkers. On a deeper level, there is a concern informed by the interstellar signal of 1966 and the possible implications of it in the worst, worst case scenario. 6.) Weighed up against the currents of religion (not fundamentalist, which hasn't emerged) is the fact that many categories of what is portrayed either exists or existed. The anti D&D backlash only came in the 1980s in a few particularly strong ebbs for specific reasons coming from @ America at the time. Here, the game emerges earlier, riding the crest of the fantasy boom and entrenching itself before computers and video games. 7.) It will be a rather different games than Munich, with a very obvious event not occurring. 8.) Australia started to get a very good side in the middle of the 1970s, albeit one that epitomised the ocker boorishness of the decade to a tee, but England never really lagged back that much. They have some useful players from @ and some different ones who will add to the side's capabilities, but the big charger of the decade will be the West Indies. 9.) It is challenging to a certain extent, with it possible that Barton will go to the country again before 1976 if and when the opportunity to boost his position comes up. The additional seats have largely gone to Labour in the major cities, as could be expected, whilst there has been a recovery of some smaller parties in their traditional heartlands. The Liberals have a very strong foundation of seats that they hope can propel them back to government in the next decade, whilst the Conservatives retook a lot of seats that narrowly went to Labour in 1968. It doesn't raise any major questions as to the future of Britain; it is still eminently possible for a party to win a majority with a strong enough performance across the country and both the Conservatives and Labour share substantial common ground in policy terms. Erskine Childers is the @ Erskine Childers Hamilton who served as President of Ireland. Here, with his father being but a well known author of a book warning of the German threat and Imperial volunteer in South Africa, his path goes a different way.
1) True a cold war clash between US and USSR teams in a world cup could be interesting.  As could a powerful England team in the 74 tournament.
3) Agreed that banning the sport would solve the problem but I suspect it has too much popular support for that to happen. Ditto with other sports such as rugby or boxing. However hopefully they will see better safety measures earlier.
4) Agreed.
5) OK thanks for clarifying.
6) I think that depends on the definition of fundamentalism. 
7) True I had forgotten about the OTL comparison with the Munich massacre that occurred. - Tend to forget what year we're currently talking about unless/until there is a clear marker like this - or the US elections after 12 years of JFK which should have reminded me.
8) Yes of course this is where they really emerged as a top nations with powerful batting being allied to a very formidable pace attack!
Steve, 1.) It makes for an interesting contest all round. 3.) We shall see; not being a gridiron fan, it isn’t of great consequence. 6.) Nothing analogous to @ fundamentalism. 7.) I can slap the year next to the month to help. 8.) I think I’ve touched on it before, but their major competition will come from South Africa and the united India team. |
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Dec 1, 2023 16:04:09 GMT
No, why would there be? We have covered this before - Ireland is over 80% Protestant and as British as Scotland.
Some general notes on Ireland from my archive:
“Catholics? They’re a reasonable sized minority out on the West Coast, but most of the country is solid Church of Ireland; fewer than one in five would be Catholics, if I remember right. It has been ever since the Tudors.”
“That sounds like quite the opposite to my Ireland. It would have caused fewer troubles over the years.”
“Most probably. The last time there was any rebellion or trouble over there was in the days of William and Mary. It simply isn’t something that would happen in modern Britain.”
- Lack of the basis for the Troubles
- No Cromwellian conquest and legacy thereof
- No major famines after 1740; there is a major rise in emigration in the late 1840s, but fewer deaths
- Greater Irish Catholic emigration to the Americas in the manner of the Highland Clearances
- Earlier Catholic emancipation
- Irish home rule movement never takes off the ground in the Victorian period and Irish republicanism is virtually stillborn, with the result of no Irish Home Rule Crisis, no Easter Rising, no Civil War...
- A different development of Irish nationalism, which is subsumed under a wider British identity in a similar manner to Scottish and Welsh nationalism. Ireland would still suffer oppressed in the Early Modern period due to broader issues beyond religious sectarianism, but some of the wind would be taken out of some sails.
- Decline of Irish Gaelic to niche status, along the lines of what occurred historically, but without the boost supplied by politics
- There are many, many consequences on the World Wars from having all of Ireland in the United Kingdom
Irish republicanism does not exist in a serious fashion; any public advocacy anywhere in the realm of @ stuff would get the men involved arrested facing charges of sedition, treason and treachery. After the shooting and wounding of the Prince of Wales in the 1920s, there isn’t much latitude given.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836 
Likes: 13,225
|
Post by stevep on Dec 1, 2023 23:23:03 GMT
1) True a cold war clash between US and USSR teams in a world cup could be interesting. As could a powerful England team in the 74 tournament.
3) Agreed that banning the sport would solve the problem but I suspect it has too much popular support for that to happen. Ditto with other sports such as rugby or boxing. However hopefully they will see better safety measures earlier.
4) Agreed.
5) OK thanks for clarifying.
6) I think that depends on the definition of fundamentalism.
7) True I had forgotten about the OTL comparison with the Munich massacre that occurred. - Tend to forget what year we're currently talking about unless/until there is a clear marker like this - or the US elections after 12 years of JFK which should have reminded me.
8) Yes of course this is where they really emerged as a top nations with powerful batting being allied to a very formidable pace attack!
Steve, 1.) It makes for an interesting contest all round. 3.) We shall see; not being a gridiron fan, it isn’t of great consequence. 6.) Nothing analogous to @ fundamentalism. 7.) I can slap the year next to the month to help. 8.) I think I’ve touched on it before, but their major competition will come from South Africa and the united India team.
1) Of course if a parallel to OTL the other big teams are the Dutch and possibly the Poles and Germans.
7) That would be great thanks.
|
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Dec 2, 2023 13:52:19 GMT
August 1972 Notes- The tripartite cooperation between Britain, Canada and the USA is not a takeover of either of the Anglo-Canadian or American programmes, nor a merger. Canada and the United States have broadly similar and indeed analogous missile defence threats, so already have requirements that work towards what they want and need. Britain faces a different threat, being closer to the USSR, with the majority of the Soviet missile threat coming from medium ranged weapons with a flight time of ~12 to 15 minutes; new missiles under development will halve that. This isn't a joint programme, but cooperative development, whereby three existing programmes are combined as far as possible under an overarching whole; there is some small possibility that the US will take the next generation long range missile, the British the medium range and the Canadians the short range, but this arrangement isn't written in stone - The Nakajima YS-24 is a twin jet roughly in the class of the Boeing 737 - Televised election debates occur much earlier in Britain, but don't turn out to be decisive here - Temür takes after a distant ancestor. Additionally of interest in Mongolia is the aged White Russian chief advisor to the Great Khan - Admiral Brubaker did fly missions against the bridges at Toko-Ri in the Korean War, but doesn't have a basis for breaching the long standing tradition against women serving at sea, anymore than he has the cachet to make the USN dry - The locust attack is based on a historical event, although there wasn't a fireball slinging genie resembling Barbara Eden involved in @ - England have a pretty strong soccer team and won't be missing out on 1974 - The Corvair isn't effectively killed off by Nader - Trouble is brewing in Uganda, but the response is going to be a bit stronger than the non response rendered to Amin. Uganda, like many former British (and French) colonies in Africa, is independent in name, but in practice, has a lot of red lines that it cannot cross without getting a reaction. This isn't without controversy, but without any real Soviet penetration in Africa, there is still a strong level of control - The meteor getting intercepted is another indicator of advances - The US Army is starting to field specific light infantry formations, but the more substantial part of the 256th's tale is their location. India is fairly firmly in the Western camp, but one of the future theatres of trouble lies in Burma, still administered by India - German arms concerns are nudging into the international market; Mauser-Gruber is owned by multi-millionaire industrialist, Hubert Gruber - The AMA wades in on American football in a pretty conclusive manner. As to what occurs, that will play out over the next year; I'm currently weighing up all options - Nauru being restored means that the island country will not have anywhere near the same sad fate - Exercise Walker is designed to test operations in a protracted global war, after a limited nuclear exchange, and also to rehearse how to cope with extraterrestrial invasion - Several of the British cars described are original designs - Italian (or Anglo-Italian) food finally starts to spread, after its niche was closed for years after the war. The spelling of several dishes reflects a particular garbling of pronunciation, with the inclusion of pineapple as an essential topping for 'pitza' likely to send some in DE (and maybe some on Earth) into paroxysms of apoplexy - Vietnam yielding war prizes is a sign of how the war will be perceived: as another successful battle for freedom and right - TSR is established earlier than @ by an enriched Gygax and co and rides the wave of the fantasy boom to quite significant heights. The wicked wizard from the coast didn't get to stop D&D! - New Skyhawks are an unexpected turn, but come from a changing requirement for a light attack plane; they look similar and have the same name, but there is a lot different 'under the hood', like the comparison of the Crusader and Crusader III. The VBX will be a big bugger of a plane indeed and the Marines get Tomcats. The final aircraft referred to is the Lockheed-Martin F-13 Starburst, a very hot fighter-interceptor - Mexican designs on New Avalon are as far fetched as the Argentine nationalists who dream of the Falklands and Prydain - The Appleby White Paper, by the well known civil servant, outlines a number of coming developments in artillery; in providing the rubber stamp of a approval, it reflects the differing power centre in British defence politics, with the old chestnut of the Treasury having final say simply not applying - The Constantinople Olympics will see some famous moments - Certain Australian cricketers stick around longer, whilst others debut earlier and in style - Canada gets new battlewagons - Barton and Labour come out as the largest party after the '72 General Election, showing how capturing a majority is going to be quite difficult, but not impossible. The result reflects a contest where there wasn't really a major difference in the policies of the Conservatives and Labour; not the @ Butskellism by any stretch of the imagination, but a general agreement on domestic, foreign and military policy - Rhodesia's gold rush will turn out to be quite valuable, in several senses of the word
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,225
|
Post by stevep on Dec 2, 2023 18:48:00 GMT
August 1972 Notes- The tripartite cooperation between Britain, Canada and the USA is not a takeover of either of the Anglo-Canadian or American programmes, nor a merger. Canada and the United States have broadly similar and indeed analogous missile defence threats, so already have requirements that work towards what they want and need. Britain faces a different threat, being closer to the USSR, with the majority of the Soviet missile threat coming from medium ranged weapons with a flight time of ~12 to 15 minutes; new missiles under development will halve that. This isn't a joint programme, but cooperative development, whereby three existing programmes are combined as far as possible under an overarching whole; there is some small possibility that the US will take the next generation long range missile, the British the medium range and the Canadians the short range, but this arrangement isn't written in stone - The Nakajima YS-24 is a twin jet roughly in the class of the Boeing 737 - Televised election debates occur much earlier in Britain, but don't turn out to be decisive here - Temür takes after a distant ancestor. Additionally of interest in Mongolia is the aged White Russian chief advisor to the Great Khan - Admiral Brubaker did fly missions against the bridges at Toko-Ri in the Korean War, but doesn't have a basis for breaching the long standing tradition against women serving at sea, anymore than he has the cachet to make the USN dry - The locust attack is based on a historical event, although there wasn't a fireball slinging genie resembling Barbara Eden involved in @ - England have a pretty strong soccer team and won't be missing out on 1974 - The Corvair isn't effectively killed off by Nader - Trouble is brewing in Uganda, but the response is going to be a bit stronger than the non response rendered to Amin. Uganda, like many former British (and French) colonies in Africa, is independent in name, but in practice, has a lot of red lines that it cannot cross without getting a reaction. This isn't without controversy, but without any real Soviet penetration in Africa, there is still a strong level of control - The meteor getting intercepted is another indicator of advances - The US Army is starting to field specific light infantry formations, but the more substantial part of the 256th's tale is their location. India is fairly firmly in the Western camp, but one of the future theatres of trouble lies in Burma, still administered by India - German arms concerns are nudging into the international market; Mauser-Gruber is owned by multi-millionaire industrialist, Hubert Gruber - The AMA wades in on American football in a pretty conclusive manner. As to what occurs, that will play out over the next year; I'm currently weighing up all options - Nauru being restored means that the island country will not have anywhere near the same sad fate - Exercise Walker is designed to test operations in a protracted global war, after a limited nuclear exchange, and also to rehearse how to cope with extraterrestrial invasion - Several of the British cars described are original designs - Italian (or Anglo-Italian) food finally starts to spread, after its niche was closed for years after the war. The spelling of several dishes reflects a particular garbling of pronunciation, with the inclusion of pineapple as an essential topping for 'pitza' likely to send some in DE (and maybe some on Earth) into paroxysms of apoplexy - Vietnam yielding war prizes is a sign of how the war will be perceived: as another successful battle for freedom and right - TSR is established earlier than @ by an enriched Gygax and co and rides the wave of the fantasy boom to quite significant heights. The wicked wizard from the coast didn't get to stop D&D! - New Skyhawks are an unexpected turn, but come from a changing requirement for a light attack plane; they look similar and have the same name, but there is a lot different 'under the hood', like the comparison of the Crusader and Crusader III. The VBX will be a big bugger of a plane indeed and the Marines get Tomcats. The final aircraft referred to is the Lockheed-Martin F-13 Starburst, a very hot fighter-interceptor - Mexican designs on New Avalon are as far fetched as the Argentine nationalists who dream of the Falklands and Prydain - The Appleby White Paper, by the well known civil servant, outlines a number of coming developments in artillery; in providing the rubber stamp of a approval, it reflects the differing power centre in British defence politics, with the old chestnut of the Treasury having final say simply not applying - The Constantinople Olympics will see some famous moments - Certain Australian cricketers stick around longer, whilst others debut earlier and in style - Canada gets new battlewagons - Barton and Labour come out as the largest party after the '72 General Election, showing how capturing a majority is going to be quite difficult, but not impossible. The result reflects a contest where there wasn't really a major difference in the policies of the Conservatives and Labour; not the @ Butskellism by any stretch of the imagination, but a general agreement on domestic, foreign and military policy - Rhodesia's gold rush will turn out to be quite valuable, in several senses of the word
- Admiral Brubaker did fly missions against the bridges at Toko-Ri in the Korean War, but doesn't have a basis for breaching the long standing tradition against women serving at sea, anymore than he has the cachet to make the USN dry - Well that former lack is bad for the US and its people. 
- The locust attack is based on a historical event, although there wasn't a fireball slinging genie resembling Barbara Eden involved in @ - Ah I didn't recognise who the lady was.
- England have a pretty strong soccer team and won't be missing out on 1974 - Well not on the finals but winning could be another question. Have to see how things go. - The AMA wades in on American football in a pretty conclusive manner. As to what occurs, that will play out over the next year; I'm currently weighing up all options - Be interesting to see what you decide. - Exercise Walker is designed to test operations in a protracted global war, after a limited nuclear exchange, and also to rehearse how to cope with extraterrestrial invasion - Ah you didn't mention that last bit. - Italian (or Anglo-Italian) food finally starts to spread, after its niche was closed for years after the war. The spelling of several dishes reflects a particular garbling of pronunciation, with the inclusion of pineapple as an essential topping for 'pitza' likely to send some in DE (and maybe some on Earth) into paroxysms of apoplexy - Not me.  - Mexican designs on New Avalon are as far fetched as the Argentine nationalists who dream of the Falklands and Prydain - Good. - Barton and Labour come out as the largest party after the '72 General Election, showing how capturing a majority is going to be quite difficult, but not impossible. The result reflects a contest where there wasn't really a major difference in the policies of the Conservatives and Labour; not the @ Butskellism by any stretch of the imagination, but a general agreement on domestic, foreign and military policy - Well that was pretty much the situation OTL until things went down the sewer in 1979!
|
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Dec 3, 2023 5:22:40 GMT
Steve,
1.) At this point, there is no shortage of manpower, so the only way it would be bad is in the nebulous category of gender equality. Historically, whilst there was a fairly symbolic lifting of the ban on serving on surface ships by Zumwalt in 1972, nothing really changed until 1978 with a court case and subsequent legislation; there were some aviators who entered training from 1973 and graduated from 1974. The RN didn't have women serving onboard ships until 1993, nor the Canadians until 1985. The practical circumstances of bunking/berthing need to be considered when thinking of 'equality before other considerations', with no ships having facilities for female crew; modifications do require yardtime, expenditure and a loss of space, when, with a large force involving draftees, there isn't a pressing need for extra bodies. To sum it up, it isn't just an issue of equality vs tradition, but of practicality.
2.) Henceforth, may your dream of Jeannie!
3.) We will indeed. I'll need to do the draw to work out who plays who
4.) Indeed. Watch this space
5.) As said in my initial reply to you on this event, the exercise has a secondary purpose of the 'worst, worst case scenario' with regard to the concern informed by the interstellar signal. They don't get much more worst case than an alien invasion
6.) The anathema towards pineapple on pizza as a personal preference is something I've never understood
7.) They are on a level with the Argies who (in @ and in DE) hijacked a light aeroplane to the Falklands, thinking they would liberate it. In DE, they were met by a Centurion pointing its main gun at them
8.) The only similarity with @ is the idea of consensus. The 'location' and substance of the consensus are different.
In DE, both Labour and the Conservatives agree on
1.) The paramount importance of a strong and growing defence;
2.) an Empire based global policy, pro-intervention in Africa and the Middle East and a general foreign policy of maintaining an equal alliance with America whilst keeping Europe divided yet friendly;
3.) Full employment
4.) Keeping taxation and public spending in general check to maximise economic growth; supporting and promoting British industry on the current basis of 3-5 major concerns/groups per industry;
5.) Strong support of and investment in education and infrastructure
6.) Maintenance of the welfare state and NHS
7.) Fairly minimal regulation up to what is necessary
8.) Trade unions having a significant role in the national economy
9.) General Keynesian economics
10.) A nominally mixed economy that in practice only has certain sectors nationalised (railways, power, gas, water, airlines and telecommunications)
This is in contrast to the @ consensus/Butskellism, which emphasised a stronger (and to some extent ever growing) welfare state, high taxation, nationalisation, regulation and a far more 'mixed' economy. Both parties supported a shift to Europe and the EEC alongside decolonisation and both parties cut defence spending virtually every single year from 1962 to 1989 (with the exceptions of 1967 due to devaluation, 1979 due to recession and 1982 due to the Falklands blip).
As said in January, there is difference over Science, Housing and Immigration, but not really substantive difference.
The size of the state grew over the period 1960-1979 (see below), whereas in 1972 Dark Earth, it is 32% and trending downward, without an incoming mid 1970s peak (both of spending and misfortune).
@ Government spending as % of GDP
1950: 37.50
1951: 39.30
1952: 40.22
1953: 39.44
1954: 37.35
1955: 35.55
1956: 35.31
1957: 34.57
1958: 34.88
1959: 35.17
1960: 34.92
1961: 36.94
1962: 37.64
1963: 37.47
1964: 37.43
1965: 38.35
1966: 38.81
1967: 41.97
1968: 41.68
1969: 39.75
1970: 38.52
1971: 38.55
1972: 37.40
1973: 37.37
1974: 42.35
1975: 44.79
1976: 42.71
1977: 38.76
1978: 38.65
1979: 38.59
Simon
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,225
|
Post by stevep on Dec 3, 2023 12:27:57 GMT
Steve, 1.) At this point, there is no shortage of manpower, so the only way it would be bad is in the nebulous category of gender equality. Historically, whilst there was a fairly symbolic lifting of the ban on serving on surface ships by Zumwalt in 1972, nothing really changed until 1978 with a court case and subsequent legislation; there were some aviators who entered training from 1973 and graduated from 1974. The RN didn't have women serving onboard ships until 1993, nor the Canadians until 1985. The practical circumstances of bunking/berthing need to be considered when thinking of 'equality before other considerations', with no ships having facilities for female crew; modifications do require yardtime, expenditure and a loss of space, when, with a large force involving draftees, there isn't a pressing need for extra bodies. To sum it up, it isn't just an issue of equality vs tradition, but of practicality. 2.) Henceforth, may your dream of Jeannie! 3.) We will indeed. I'll need to do the draw to work out who plays who 4.) Indeed. Watch this space 5.) As said in my initial reply to you on this event, the exercise has a secondary purpose of the 'worst, worst case scenario' with regard to the concern informed by the interstellar signal. They don't get much more worst case than an alien invasion 6.) The anathema towards pineapple on pizza as a personal preference is something I've never understood 7.) They are on a level with the Argies who (in @ and in DE) hijacked a light aeroplane to the Falklands, thinking they would liberate it. In DE, they were met by a Centurion pointing its main gun at them 8.) The only similarity with @ is the idea of consensus. The 'location' and substance of the consensus are different. In DE, both Labour and the Conservatives agree on 1.) The paramount importance of a strong and growing defence; 2.) an Empire based global policy, pro-intervention in Africa and the Middle East and a general foreign policy of maintaining an equal alliance with America whilst keeping Europe divided yet friendly; 3.) Full employment 4.) Keeping taxation and public spending in general check to maximise economic growth; supporting and promoting British industry on the current basis of 3-5 major concerns/groups per industry; 5.) Strong support of and investment in education and infrastructure 6.) Maintenance of the welfare state and NHS 7.) Fairly minimal regulation up to what is necessary 8.) Trade unions having a significant role in the national economy 9.) General Keynesian economics 10.) A nominally mixed economy that in practice only has certain sectors nationalised (railways, power, gas, water, airlines and telecommunications) This is in contrast to the @ consensus/Butskellism, which emphasised a stronger (and to some extent ever growing) welfare state, high taxation, nationalisation, regulation and a far more 'mixed' economy. Both parties supported a shift to Europe and the EEC alongside decolonisation and both parties cut defence spending virtually every single year from 1962 to 1989 (with the exceptions of 1967 due to devaluation, 1979 due to recession and 1982 due to the Falklands blip). As said in January, there is difference over Science, Housing and Immigration, but not really substantive difference. The size of the state grew over the period 1960-1979 (see below), whereas in 1972 Dark Earth, it is 32% and trending downward, without an incoming mid 1970s peak (both of spending and misfortune). @ Government spending as % of GDP 1950: 37.50 1951: 39.30 1952: 40.22 1953: 39.44 1954: 37.35 1955: 35.55 1956: 35.31 1957: 34.57 1958: 34.88 1959: 35.17 1960: 34.92 1961: 36.94 1962: 37.64 1963: 37.47 1964: 37.43 1965: 38.35 1966: 38.81 1967: 41.97 1968: 41.68 1969: 39.75 1970: 38.52 1971: 38.55 1972: 37.40 1973: 37.37 1974: 42.35 1975: 44.79 1976: 42.71 1977: 38.76 1978: 38.65 1979: 38.59 Simon
1) We will have to disagree with the importance of equality of opportunity. The idea of a women's place is still largely in the kitchen and bedroom that occupies a good chunk of the DE narrative is not something I can favour. Its not the only regressive factor in the DE narrative unfortunately.
3) Looking forward to seeing how things develop. Of course with the continuation of imperial empires there are markedly less nations about although given the relative impotence of much of Africa and Asia in terms of football strength that is less important at this date.
6) Definitely agree there. Haven't had a pizza for years but pineapple would be included in my favourite toppings
8) Most of what you mention was part of the consensus in OTL 1970's, at least in Britain. The prime differences are that DE has a steadily increasing military budget and a commitment to a continuation of empire with its considerable costs. This is partly achieved by magic and additional mineral wealth not available OTL and also a much better economic success that is achieved despite the more conservative social structure that restricts new ideas and capabilities coming through.
Steve
|
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Dec 3, 2023 14:34:59 GMT
Steve,
1.) I quite agree on equality of opportunity; the way things work out in DE isn’t driven by where I stand. Rather, it is a matter of seeing what drivers are present and following through trends and consequences, even if they turn out rather different than how I may have anticipated them when originally developing DE. Female employment is increasingly prevalent and many legal reforms are on par with @ or only slightly off; the more visible examples may act as a bit of a distractor in the overall case.
3.) It shall be an interesting process, and one that I can hopefully do a modicum of justice to, not being a follower of soccer. As a point of information, there are probably more nations around as of 1972, with the extra small places in Africa and South America offsetting the minor absences elsewhere (such as the Gulf states), not to mention the European minors. Now, we have discussed whether their independence is true independence, but for sporting purposes, it is.
6.) I like it, which is one of the very minor bits of personal preference I overtly slip in.
8.) Insofar as the list cited is concerned, the common ground is 3, 5, 6, 8 and 9, albeit with 6 being a little less significant in a stronger economy at this time. There hasn’t really been a restriction of new ideas under Labour, which has tacked towards the ‘white heat of technology’ even more than @. In their third term, they are going to be dabbling with organisational cybernetics, which is certainly not a path well explored in @.
Another facet is that the government is taking a bit of a longer term view, rather than the type of short termism both Labour and the Conservatives were prone to on occasions in @.
Simon
|
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Dec 10, 2023 16:54:46 GMT
September
September 1: Bobby Fischer secures the World Chess Championship over Boris Spassky in Reykjavik, reaching the winning threshold of 12.5 points out of 21 and winning the prize purse of $250,000.
September 2: Tupamaros leader Raul Sendic is captured in an intense shootout with Uruguayan Army forces, taken under heavy guard to the Plaza de Independencia and summarily hanged, having previously been sentenced to death in absentia.
September 3: The conservative nationalist Sangkum Riastr Niyum of King Norodom Sihanouk wins a plurality of votes in the Cambodian general election, ensuring that they will remain in government.
September 4: American swimmer Mark Spitz becomes the first Olympian to win eight gold medals at a single Olympic Games, setting world records in each of the 100m and 200m freestyle, the 100m and 200m butterfly, the 100m trudgen and the 100m freestyle, 200m freestyle relay and the 100m medley relay and becoming the toast of both Constantinople and the United States.
September 5: A daring attempted robbery of Montreal Museum of Fine Arts robbery is foiled by the attendance of no less than four costumed superheroes, with some commentators subsequently criticising the supposed superhero communication and coordination network for unnecessary concentration of limited assets.
September 6: A new Summer Olympics record is set in the Chariot final, with Stavros Nikephoros completing the 2000m course in the extraordinary time of 1:52 in front of 250,000 cheering spectators at the Great Hippordrome of Constantinople.
September 7: The Soviet Union begins the process of disconnecting dissidents from the regular telephone network under a special directive under Section 74 of Soviet Regulations on Communications, instead limiting them to a restricted subnetwork of predominantly government service numbers, often highly congested; this is considered to be a more optimum means of social control than wholesale deprivation.
September 8: The Menswear and Ladys Wear departments of Grace Brothers department store in London are reopened, combined on a single floor after the unfortunate incident involving the former Menswear department, former maintenance employee Mr. Frank Spencer, the Clapham omnibus and an escaped velociraptor from London Zoo.
September 9: Dwarven spelunkers in Kentucky discover a cave passageway extending upwards of 150 miles, the longest such natural link found in the upper levels of the American Underworld.
September 10: A peasant rebellion against Imperial authority begins in Western Szechuan, purportedly lead by the near legendary folk hero Shou Chang.
September 11: The closing ceremony of Constantinople Olympics is held after 16 days of marvelous and fair competition, with IOC President Avery Brundage hailing them as the greatest of the modern era. The United States of America tops the medal count with 105, followed by the Soviet Union with 96, Germany 44, Japan 36, Austria-Hungary 35, Britain 30, Australia 29, Poland 27, France 25 and the host nation Greece with 24.
September 12: British paratroopers of the 5th Airborne Brigade and Gurkha Parachute Battalion seize Entebbe Airport in a predawn airborne assault as part of Operation Oblivion, the removal of the Ugandan government and the restoration of order. Special Air Service troopers arrest the unreliable elements of the government in conjunction with Imperial Police commandos from the Special Wizardry and Tactics section They are followed by an airlift of the 36th Infantry Brigade and the 2nd Commando Brigade, with a strike force of the 9th Royal Marine Brigade landing in Kampala after a 300 mile high-speed super hovercraft journey from Mwanza, Tanganyika, whilst the 1st African Division advances over road and by rotodyne from Kenya. The Ugandan Army largely acts in accordance with directions from its officers and NCOs to remain in their barracks.
September 13: A proposal for the sale of wine, beer and alcoholic spirits in English grocers, corner shops, general stores and supermarkets is declined by the Ministry of Trade and Industry on the grounds of deleterious effects on social morality.
September 14: Completion of the highly secret British Commonwealth Strategic Defence Reserve Plan, setting out specific reserve equipment and munition levels to be maintained by component nations, new regional underground prepositioning centres and scheduling of the construction of new factories in distributed locations to facilitate the various goals.
September 15: SAS Flight 130 is hijacked over Central Sweden by Croatian separatists whilst en route between Gothenburg and Stockholm. It is escorted to Malmo by Royal Swedish Air Force Drakens, where negotiations follow for several hours before a team from the Drabantkår's Sarskilda Angreppstvinga wearing invisibility cloaks storm the aircraft in conjunction with deployment of specially enhanced vintage surstromming, freeing the hostages and taking all of the hapless terrorists alive.
September 16: Protests against the liberal reform agenda of the Shah of Persia begin across a number of Persian cities, with the Imperial Gendarmerie and SAVAK monitoring the developments at this stage.
September 17: US Navy SEALs storm an isolated floating research facility in the South Pacific where a clandestine team of scientists were experimenting with sorcerously modified mako sharks in an effort to create an undersea monstrosity for a secretive mad scientist; their efforts had been delayed by eccentric demands for the inclusion of ray guns on the sharks. The base and the mutants are destroyed and the scientists taken into custody for interrogation.
September 18: The Central Committee of the Communist Party of Romania hold an extraordinary emergency meeting on the recent spate of vampire attacks in Bucharest, Targoviste and Bistrita and their baleful significance.
September 19: Reverend Elvis Presley leads his trusty posse to rescue Mrs Virginia Piper and a dozen other kidnapped women being held a wicked gangster ring masquerading as a folk music film crew, with the fight for deliverance being aided ably by the group of underground mercenaries from Los Angeles and a quartet of British bardic adventurers.
September 20: Former world heavyweight boxing champion Floyd Patterson announces a comeback with a bout scheduled with up and coming Austro-Hungarian prospect József Bugner.
September 21: Testing on the Vickers Skyguard anti-missile laser defence system begins in Britain, with the high powered laser ray gun offering the potential for significant capability advances in short and medium range air defence.
September 22: The Japanese Foreign Minister arrives in Manila for talks with the Filipino government on a raft of proposed commercial and military export agreements.
September 23: Unveiling of Moo-La the Cow, a giant cow statue in Stephenville, Texas marking the achievements of the local dairy industry. The ceremonial occasion is rather interrupted by Moo-La beginning to talk, querying why she was atop the pedestal and when she was going to be milked. A local wizard is later fined $2000 for the prank, but Moo-La’s occasional public comments become a mark of local pride and distinction.
September 24: Two French condemned criminals are guillotined for the murder of prison guards in an attempted jail break.
September 25: Governor Reagan scores a decisive win in the first Presidential debate against Senator Humphrey, attracting plaudits for his charismatic oratory, sunny optimism and his conclusion that 'It is now a time for change and to make our great nation greater yet.'
September 26: The first USAF squadrons permanently deployed to the Middle East as part of USAFME arrive in their new bases in the Sinai.
September 27: Operation Oblivion draws to a conclusion, as the British forces hand over the security role to a stabilisation force of South African and Kenyan troops, who augment the 1st African Division’s support mission. The interim Ugandan government, made up of African, Indian, Arab and White members, has been successful to date in maintaining general order and public services.
September 28: The Canadian national hockey team wins the hard fought ‘Summit Series’ against the highly fancied Soviet Union.
September 29: Commander Virgil Tibbs becomes the first Negro to head a major police force in the United States when he is promoted to lead the Pasadena Police Department. Tibbs, known for his incisive detective skills and relentless work ethic (often labouring away well into the heat of the night) had previously pledged to keep on the streets as much as possible, rather than riding a desk.
September 30: The Egyptian Ministry of Defence announces that two new divisions of the Egyptian Army are to be formed over the next three years, along with plans to acquire up to 2000 modern tanks and new fighter jets.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,985
Likes: 49,390
|
Post by lordroel on Dec 10, 2023 17:14:47 GMT
SeptemberSeptember 15: SAS Flight 130 is hijacked over Central Sweden by Croatian separatists whilst en route between Gothenburg and Stockholm. It is escorted to Malmo by Royal Swedish Air Force Drakens. Fighter planes and not Swedish dragons i asume. |
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Dec 10, 2023 21:43:39 GMT
That is correct. Dragons are not fast enough to keep up with a jet airliner.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,225
|
Post by stevep on Dec 10, 2023 23:01:55 GMT
Some interesting Easter eggs there but late here so will try and reply tomorrow. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,225
|
Post by stevep on Dec 11, 2023 9:26:33 GMT
SeptemberSeptember 1: Bobby Fischer secures the World Chess Championship over Boris Spassky in Reykjavik, reaching the winning threshold of 12.5 points out of 21 and winning the prize purse of $250,000. September 2: Tupamaros leader Raul Sendic is captured in an intense shootout with Uruguayan Army forces, taken under heavy guard to the Plaza de Independencia and summarily hanged, having previously been sentenced to death in absentia. September 3: The conservative nationalist Sangkum Riastr Niyum of King Norodom Sihanouk wins a plurality of votes in the Cambodian general election, ensuring that they will remain in government. September 4: American swimmer Mark Spitz becomes the first Olympian to win eight gold medals at a single Olympic Games, setting world records in each of the 100m and 200m freestyle, the 100m and 200m butterfly, the 100m trudgen and the 100m freestyle, 200m freestyle relay and the 100m medley relay and becoming the toast of both Constantinople and the United States. September 5: A daring attempted robbery of Montreal Museum of Fine Arts robbery is foiled by the attendance of no less than four costumed superheroes, with some commentators subsequently criticising the supposed superhero communication and coordination network for unnecessary concentration of limited assets. September 6: A new Summer Olympics record is set in the Chariot final, with Stavros Nikephoros completing the 2000m course in the extraordinary time of 1:52 in front of 250,000 cheering spectators at the Great Hippordrome of Constantinople. September 7: The Soviet Union begins the process of disconnecting dissidents from the regular telephone network under a special directive under Section 74 of Soviet Regulations on Communications, instead limiting them to a restricted subnetwork of predominantly government service numbers, often highly congested; this is considered to be a more optimum means of social control than wholesale deprivation. September 8: The Menswear and Ladys Wear departments of Grace Brothers department store in London are reopened, combined on a single floor after the unfortunate incident involving the former Menswear department, former maintenance employee Mr. Frank Spencer, the Clapham omnibus and an escaped velociraptor from London Zoo. September 9: Dwarven spelunkers in Kentucky discover a cave passageway extending upwards of 150 miles, the longest such natural link found in the upper levels of the American Underworld. September 10: A peasant rebellion against Imperial authority begins in Western Szechuan, purportedly lead by the near legendary folk hero Shou Chang. September 11: The closing ceremony of Constantinople Olympics is held after 16 days of marvelous and fair competition, with IOC President Avery Brundage hailing them as the greatest of the modern era. The United States of America tops the medal count with 105, followed by the Soviet Union with 96, Germany 44, Japan 36, Austria-Hungary 35, Britain 30, Australia 29, Poland 27, France 25 and the host nation Greece with 24. September 12: British paratroopers of the 5th Airborne Brigade and Gurkha Parachute Battalion seize Entebbe Airport in a predawn airborne assault as part of Operation Oblivion, the removal of the Ugandan government and the restoration of order. Special Air Service troopers arrest the unreliable elements of the government in conjunction with Imperial Police commandos from the Special Wizardry and Tactics section They are followed by an airlift of the 36th Infantry Brigade and the 2nd Commando Brigade, with a strike force of the 9th Royal Marine Brigade landing in Kampala after a 300 mile high-speed super hovercraft journey from Mwanza, Tanganyika, whilst the 1st African Division advances over road and by rotodyne from Kenya. The Ugandan Army largely acts in accordance with directions from its officers and NCOs to remain in their barracks. September 13: A proposal for the sale of wine, beer and alcoholic spirits in English grocers, corner shops, general stores and supermarkets is declined by the Ministry of Trade and Industry on the grounds of deleterious effects on social morality. September 14: Completion of the highly secret British Commonwealth Strategic Defence Reserve Plan, setting out specific reserve equipment and munition levels to be maintained by component nations, new regional underground prepositioning centres and scheduling of the construction of new factories in distributed locations to facilitate the various goals. September 15: SAS Flight 130 is hijacked over Central Sweden by Croatian separatists whilst en route between Gothenburg and Stockholm. It is escorted to Malmo by Royal Swedish Air Force Drakens, where negotiations follow for several hours before a team from the Drabantkår's Sarskilda Angreppstvinga wearing invisibility cloaks storm the aircraft in conjunction with deployment of specially enhanced vintage surstromming, freeing the hostages and taking all of the hapless terrorists alive. September 16: Protests against the liberal reform agenda of the Shah of Persia begin across a number of Persian cities, with the Imperial Gendarmerie and SAVAK monitoring the developments at this stage. September 17: US Navy SEALs storm an isolated floating research facility in the South Pacific where a clandestine team of scientists were experimenting with sorcerously modified mako sharks in an effort to create an undersea monstrosity for a secretive mad scientist; their efforts had been delayed by eccentric demands for the inclusion of ray guns on the sharks. The base and the mutants are destroyed and the scientists taken into custody for interrogation. September 18: The Central Committee of the Communist Party of Romania hold an extraordinary emergency meeting on the recent spate of vampire attacks in Bucharest, Targoviste and Bistrita and their baleful significance. September 19: Reverend Elvis Presley leads his trusty posse to rescue Mrs Virginia Piper and a dozen other kidnapped women being held a wicked gangster ring masquerading as a folk music film crew, with the fight for deliverance being aided ably by the group of underground mercenaries from Los Angeles and a quartet of British bardic adventurers. September 20: Former world heavyweight boxing champion Floyd Patterson announces a comeback with a bout scheduled with up and coming Austro-Hungarian prospect József Bugner. September 21: Testing on the Vickers Skyguard anti-missile laser defence system begins in Britain, with the high powered laser ray gun offering the potential for significant capability advances in short and medium range air defence. September 22: The Japanese Foreign Minister arrives in Manila for talks with the Filipino government on a raft of proposed commercial and military export agreements. September 23: Unveiling of Moo-La the Cow, a giant cow statue in Stephenville, Texas marking the achievements of the local dairy industry. The ceremonial occasion is rather interrupted by Moo-La beginning to talk, querying why she was atop the pedestal and when she was going to be milked. A local wizard is later fined $2000 for the prank, but Moo-La’s occasional public comments become a mark of local pride and distinction. September 24: Two French condemned criminals are guillotined for the murder of prison guards in an attempted jail break. September 25: Governor Reagan scores a decisive win in the first Presidential debate against Senator Humphrey, attracting plaudits for his charismatic oratory, sunny optimism and his conclusion that 'It is now a time for change and to make our great nation greater yet.'September 26: The first USAF squadrons permanently deployed to the Middle East as part of USAFME arrive in their new bases in the Sinai. September 27: Operation Oblivion draws to a conclusion, as the British forces hand over the security role to a stabilisation force of South African and Kenyan troops, who augment the 1st African Division’s support mission. The interim Ugandan government, made up of African, Indian, Arab and White members, has been successful to date in maintaining general order and public services. September 28: The Canadian national hockey team wins the hard fought ‘Summit Series’ against the highly fancied Soviet Union. September 29: Commander Virgil Tibbs becomes the first Negro to head a major police force in the United States when he is promoted to lead the Pasadena Police Department. Tibbs, known for his incisive detective skills and relentless work ethic (often labouring away well into the heat of the night) had previously pledged to keep on the streets as much as possible, rather than riding a desk. September 30: The Egyptian Ministry of Defence announces that two new divisions of the Egyptian Army are to be formed over the next three years, along with plans to acquire up to 2000 modern tanks and new fighter jets.
September September 5: A daring attempted robbery of Montreal Museum of Fine Arts robbery is foiled by the attendance of no less than four costumed superheroes, with some commentators subsequently criticising the supposed superhero communication and coordination network for unnecessary concentration of limited assets. September 7: The Soviet Union begins the process of disconnecting dissidents from the regular telephone network under a special directive under Section 74 of Soviet Regulations on Communications, instead limiting them to a restricted subnetwork of predominantly government service numbers, often highly congested; this is considered to be a more optimum means of social control than wholesale deprivation. - Well that's somewhat less repressive than OTL when they were classifying dissidents as insane.
September 8: The Menswear and Ladys Wear departments of Grace Brothers department store in London are reopened, combined on a single floor after the unfortunate incident involving the former Menswear department, former maintenance employee Mr. Frank Spencer, the Clapham omnibus and an escaped velociraptor from London Zoo. - I found the programme a bit too silly for my tastes but it was quite popular in its day.
September 12: British paratroopers of the 5th Airborne Brigade and Gurkha Parachute Battalion seize Entebbe Airport in a predawn airborne assault as part of Operation Oblivion, the removal of the Ugandan government and the restoration of order. Special Air Service troopers arrest the unreliable elements of the government in conjunction with Imperial Police commandos from the Special Wizardry and Tactics section They are followed by an airlift of the 36th Infantry Brigade and the 2nd Commando Brigade, with a strike force of the 9th Royal Marine Brigade landing in Kampala after a 300 mile high-speed super hovercraft journey from Mwanza, Tanganyika, whilst the 1st African Division advances over road and by rotodyne from Kenya. The Ugandan Army largely acts in accordance with directions from its officers and NCOs to remain in their barracks. - TTL's version of the Entebbe raid and the removal of a potentially dangerous regime. September 13: A proposal for the sale of wine, beer and alcoholic spirits in English grocers, corner shops, general stores and supermarkets is declined by the Ministry of Trade and Industry on the grounds of deleterious effects on social morality. - September 15: SAS Flight 130 is hijacked over Central Sweden by Croatian separatists whilst en route between Gothenburg and Stockholm. It is escorted to Malmo by Royal Swedish Air Force Drakens, where negotiations follow for several hours before a team from the Drabantkår's Sarskilda Angreppstvinga wearing invisibility cloaks storm the aircraft in conjunction with deployment of specially enhanced vintage surstromming, freeing the hostages and taking all of the hapless terrorists alive. - September 17: US Navy SEALs storm an isolated floating research facility in the South Pacific where a clandestine team of scientists were experimenting with sorcerously modified mako sharks in an effort to create an undersea monstrosity for a secretive mad scientist; their efforts had been delayed by eccentric demands for the inclusion of ray guns on the sharks. The base and the mutants are destroyed and the scientists taken into custody for interrogation. - I have the feeling that this is a reference to some TV programme, probably a children's one but don't recognise it.
September 20: Former world heavyweight boxing champion Floyd Patterson announces a comeback with a bout scheduled with up and coming Austro-Hungarian prospect József Bugner. - So Joe stays Hungarian here. He got a bad press OTL because he defeated Henry Cooper to take the title and Henry was very much a folk hero here.
September 21: Testing on the Vickers Skyguard anti-missile laser defence system begins in Britain, with the high powered laser ray gun offering the potential for significant capability advances in short and medium range air defence. -
September 22: The Japanese Foreign Minister arrives in Manila for talks with the Filipino government on a raft of proposed commercial and military export agreements. - Was the double meaning intentional here? That doesn't sound a very efficient or even safe way to travel.  September 23: Unveiling of Moo-La the Cow, a giant cow statue in Stephenville, Texas marking the achievements of the local dairy industry. The ceremonial occasion is rather interrupted by Moo-La beginning to talk, querying why she was atop the pedestal and when she was going to be milked. A local wizard is later fined $2000 for the prank, but Moo-La’s occasional public comments become a mark of local pride and distinction. - September 28: The Canadian national hockey team wins the hard fought ‘Summit Series’ against the highly fancied Soviet Union. -
September 29: Commander Virgil Tibbs becomes the first Negro to head a major police force in the United States when he is promoted to lead the Pasadena Police Department. Tibbs, known for his incisive detective skills and relentless work ethic (often labouring away well into the heat of the night) had previously pledged to keep on the streets as much as possible, rather than riding a desk. - Good reference but any reason why now than a decade back when the film was set?
September 30: The Egyptian Ministry of Defence announces that two new divisions of the Egyptian Army are to be formed over the next three years, along with plans to acquire up to 2000 modern tanks and new fighter jets. - That's a lot of military muscle even for DE. Especially with a lot less tensions in the region.
|
|
|
|
Post by simon darkshade on Dec 11, 2023 10:42:28 GMT
Steve,
5.) Communication breakdowns can be embarrassing, even for superheroes!
7.) It is and it isn’t. Historically, they were cut off entirely; here, they have limited phone use, which can often be constrained by the 1970s Soviet version of impenetrable circular phone systems. It is a little crueler at its worst, whilst also having enough scope for ‘improved treatment’ for those who are broken or toe the line; in both cases, it plays tricks with dissident’s minds.
8.) My purpose here was to provide an origin story for ‘Are You Being Served?’, which grew to involve Frank and a few other bits.
12.) Not so much an Entebbe equivalent, but an application of the same approach taken in Burundi earlier in the year. The Ugandan government was not quite potentially dangerous as silly for crossing clear red lines.
13.) It is different than @, but based on sound principles of limiting alcoholic purchases to certain areas for safety and social cohesion reasons.
15.) The Swedes are a bit more gung ho in certain ways.
17.) The ocean base and shark alteration is from Deep Blue Sea, whilst the inclusion of laser beams on their heads was a demand of Doctor Evil in Austin Powers.
20.) There is no reason for him to leave AH here.
21.) Testing will take some time.
22.) No intention of double meaning, unfortunately.
23.) Moo-La is historical, but ideal for a prank.
28.) A historical event,
29.) In the Heat of the Night was a 1967 film based on a 1965 book, but was followed by two further films with Sidney Poitier. His promotion schedule lines up to late 1972 at the earliest.
30.) It is, but Egypt is a large country with a big army…and no one to use it against, thanks to the British and Americans lying smack bang in the way.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,225
|
Post by stevep on Dec 11, 2023 17:43:55 GMT
Steve, 5.) Communication breakdowns can be embarrassing, even for superheroes! 7.) It is and it isn’t. Historically, they were cut off entirely; here, they have limited phone use, which can often be constrained by the 1970s Soviet version of impenetrable circular phone systems. It is a little crueler at its worst, whilst also having enough scope for ‘improved treatment’ for those who are broken or toe the line; in both cases, it plays tricks with dissident’s minds. 8.) My purpose here was to provide an origin story for ‘Are You Being Served?’, which grew to involve Frank and a few other bits. 12.) Not so much an Entebbe equivalent, but an application of the same approach taken in Burundi earlier in the year. The Ugandan government was not quite potentially dangerous as silly for crossing clear red lines. 13.) It is different than @, but based on sound principles of limiting alcoholic purchases to certain areas for safety and social cohesion reasons. 15.) The Swedes are a bit more gung ho in certain ways. 17.) The ocean base and shark alteration is from Deep Blue Sea, whilst the inclusion of laser beams on their heads was a demand of Doctor Evil in Austin Powers. 20.) There is no reason for him to leave AH here. 21.) Testing will take some time. 22.) No intention of double meaning, unfortunately. 23.) Moo-La is historical, but ideal for a prank. 28.) A historical event, 29.) In the Heat of the Night was a 1967 film based on a 1965 book, but was followed by two further films with Sidney Poitier. His promotion schedule lines up to late 1972 at the earliest. 30.) It is, but Egypt is a large country with a big army…and no one to use it against, thanks to the British and Americans lying smack bang in the way. 17) - Ah I didn't think of Deep Blue Sea and never watched Austin Powers. |
|
As could a powerful England team in the 74 tournament.
