lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 21, 2022 18:38:22 GMT
The grand strategy as adopted by the Kennedy Administration and the US Army Vietnam (Dark Earth parallel to MACV) has been: Will the US Army Vietnam remain now there is peace.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 22, 2022 0:20:22 GMT
Under a broader United States Forces Vietnam joint command very much similar to the @ Korean analogue.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 22, 2022 14:32:25 GMT
So, where do things *prospectively* stand for 1970 and the initial part of the decade?
- Inflation, whilst growing a bit more than the early 1960s, has not reached the @ levels and, with the end of the war, will nominally be something that can be tamed - The British balance of payments issue and growing economic crisis simply isn’t there - There isn’t the potential for an oil shock which acted as the catalyst, not the cause, of the 1970s economic problems in the USA and West - The Soviets are in better economic conditions, but aren’t poised to achieve strategic nuclear parity unless there is a 180 degree seachange in US strategic posture - There is much less division between political Left and Right wing parties in the West in real terms - Victory in Vietnam will have an effect on which way India moves - Japan is not only in its economic pomp but is now really fielding a powerful modern military - This is when China started to rise and emerge; its trajectory will be in a different direction here, but not an opposite one - We don’t have a War on Drugs or drug problem on the @ level in any way - With a different conclusion to Vietnam, there won’t be the same Boat People immigration issue. A small thing but culturally significant - Space exploration will continue to expand and captivate public attention; this is just one manifestation of a decade that doesn’t shift *inwards* - There are some drivers for detente, but the 1972 election approaches and the USA is due for a change of party - US power and the perception of power is enhanced by victory in Vietnam
- I really don’t know whither Europe. There is the basis for some degree of much delayed Franco-German rapprochement of sorts, but Beaucourt is no Giscard d’Estaing or Pompidou and is more of a de Gaulle/Bonaparte. The Benelux countries would be very keen on any such arrangement, but at its core, it needs France, Germany and Italy - Italy will have some different twists and turns coming up. Suffice it to say that it won’t be seeking supranational arrangements any time soon - The big X Factor not present in the European balance of power in @ is Austria-Hungary. By its existence, it pushes the Iron Curtain out of Central Europe, adds a major economic and industrial power and provides a key trump card for control of Europe. It is also by its nature not quite as strong a national entity as Germany - Persia will be interesting in a different way to @
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 22, 2022 14:38:14 GMT
Under a broader United States Forces Vietnam joint command very much similar to the @ Korean analogue. Will it see a force reduction ore stay at the same level.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 22, 2022 14:51:34 GMT
That will depend on how tensions and developments pan out. A drop from 4 to 2 divisions after a few years is likely.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 22, 2022 14:56:24 GMT
That will depend on how tensions and developments pan out. A drop from 4 to 2 divisions after a few years is likely. And is that adequate ore is it just a trip wire in attack them and you got hell to pay.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 22, 2022 15:00:28 GMT
The question I’d pose is why North Vietnam would suddenly up and attempt invasion across a 24km wide DMZ that is heavily mined and well covered by artillery and fortifications. To do so, they’d need North Korean level forces and delusions that were built up over decades.
A conventional invasion by North Vietnam alone is the least likely threat.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 22, 2022 15:18:41 GMT
February 21: Signing of an Armistice by South Vietnam, North Vietnam, the United States, the Soviet Union, France and Britain. formally bringing hostilities on land, sea and air in the Vietnam War to an end until a final peaceful settlement can be achieved. It provides for the establishment of a 15 mile wide Demilitarised Zone from the coast to the Thai border, the temporary partitioning of Laos into a communist North Laos and democratic South Laos, a full exchange of prisoners of war and the clearing of mines from the coast of North Vietnam and a lifting of the blockade. Previous Soviet and North Vietnamese insistence upon the withdrawal of Allied forces from South Vietnam was dropped in exchange for acquiescence on the terms of the Laotian partition. Whilst both sides can claim victory by virtue of survival as state entities, the effective destruction of the Viet Cong provides for the best possible evidence of a strategic victory for South Vietnam, the United States and their Free World allies. Whilst Saigon still has significant progress to make until it it is militarily self sufficient, it is greatly advanced from its position of a decade ago. The cost in lives, treasure and damage to the natural environment has been great for all involved. South Vietnam has suffered an estimated 360,000 military and 500,000 civilian dead and missing and over 1 million wounded; the United States 79,248 killed or missing and 398,532 wounded; France 12,823 KIA/MIA and 65,612 WIA; Britain 10,376 KIA/MIA and 56,934 wounded; Korea 8741 KIA/MIA and 25,938 WIA; the Commonwealth 8692 KIA/MIA and 35,624 WIA; India 6983 KIA/MIA and 27,445 WIA; and other Free World Military Forces 12,579 KIA/MIA and 70,628 WIA. North Vietnam and the Viet Cong lost an estimated 2 million military dead or missing and upwards of 300,000 civilian deaths due to bombing and other military action. The economic cost of the Vietnam War to the United States in the 1960s is difficult to measure, but from 1964 to 1970, $307 billion was spent on direct war costs alone; aid to South Vietnam and subsidies and support to numerous member states of the Free World Military Forces was in addition to this expenditure. US forces peaked in 1969 with a total of 2,139,526 men deployed in 27 Army and Marine divisions and a total of 2954 fixed wing planes and 3877 helicopters were lost due to combat or accidents, but only 426 tanks were lost. Like the Korean War, naval losses were comparatively small, with only a handful of ships sunk, but numerous battleships and carriers sustained casualties from enemy fire and accidents and sea during the six and a half years of major combat operations. Enemy air to air combat losses are claimed as 784 shot down in aerial combat in exchange for 178 US, 65 British, 40 South Vietnamese and 23 French planes. The increasing use of chemical and radiological weapons in the final years of the war has rendered some certain parts of North Vietnam and Laos uninhabitable for the next ten millennia, whilst the use of chemical defoliant and assorted biological agents has inflicted considerable damage. Significant parts of Hanoi, Haiphong and other strategic North Vietnamese cities have been destroyed by the heavy bombing campaign of Operation Rolling Thunder and over 24 million tons of explosive ordnance was dropped by the USAF, USN and Allied forces, ranging from 3” rockets to a former battleship. It saw the last combat employment of the F-51 Mustang and the de Havilland Mosquito and the first use of nuclear weapons in a war since the British in 1956. where are Laos and Cambodia here in this treaty, ore are they not effected at all.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 22, 2022 15:20:39 GMT
Laos is partitioned, reflecting the facts on the ground. Cambodia remains a pro Western Allied state.
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Post by lordroel on Jul 22, 2022 15:23:20 GMT
Laos is partitioned, reflecting the facts on the ground. Cambodia remains a pro Western Allied state. So no worry that North Vietnam might think they can be turned into a pro-North Vietnam puppet.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 22, 2022 15:28:33 GMT
It absolutely is an extension of North Vietnam and a Soviet puppet state. There was just no way to preserve it once the overall strategy for winning in South Vietnam was decided upon. SVN can be effectively cut off from North Vietnam with a line extended through Laos; the latter country, on the other hand, is largely intertwined with NV.
It is a piece of Cold War realpolitik.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 23, 2022 20:41:18 GMT
It absolutely is an extension of North Vietnam and a Soviet puppet state. There was just no way to preserve it once the overall strategy for winning in South Vietnam was decided upon. SVN can be effectively cut off from North Vietnam with a line extended through Laos; the latter country, on the other hand, is largely intertwined with NV. It is a piece of Cold War realpolitik. So will the United States keep Cam Ranh Bay as a major naval base instead of OTL Soviet Union and does the Soviet Union have a naval base in North Vietnam.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 24, 2022 3:43:04 GMT
They don’t really need it as a major naval base, as they have Subic Bay. The Soviets don’t have a formal naval base in NV at this stage; Haiphong is still mined in and bombed out.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 24, 2022 7:47:40 GMT
They don’t really need it as a major naval base, as they have Subic Bay. The Soviets don’t have a formal naval base in NV at this stage; Haiphong is still mined in and bombed out. So it will take time to clear it out, might China be able to help. Also what does the US Navy have in Subic Bay, is it as important as Pearl Harbor.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 24, 2022 10:09:47 GMT
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