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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 27, 2018 11:32:00 GMT
It is one of the pieces on display. The immediate responses and thoughts were a mixture of wonder at the sheer size and relief that resources had been plowed into such a dead end project instead of weapons that actually threatened them in the field.
The background story is that it was produced in response to Hitler's tantrum regarding Churchill and the 'English' having larger, long range artillery pieces than Germany, which were four 36" guns emplaced around Dover with a truly prodigious range.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 27, 2018 13:46:00 GMT
It is one of the pieces on display. The immediate responses and thoughts were a mixture of wonder at the sheer size and relief that resources had been plowed into such a dead end project instead of weapons that actually threatened them in the field. You mean more tanks that where not pet projects of Hitler.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 27, 2018 14:24:32 GMT
Exactly. His schemes and obsessions coloured much of German war production.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 27, 2018 14:34:12 GMT
Where British Centurions in service with the Germans altered ore simple basic versions.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 27, 2018 14:42:38 GMT
sdarkshade Interesting run through and sounds a bit closer to OTL WWII than the WWI case. Did notice most designs were available a bit earlier and you have Bismarck available in time for Norway. Sounds like as OTL Nazi excesses and the sheer number of enemies Hitler created proved too much for the Reich.
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 27, 2018 14:50:13 GMT
Lordroel, the Centurions used by the German Army were standard variants without any added extras.
Steve, the overextension of Germany was its flaw. The tank production programme was rather more efficient throughout, but still ran up against problems and limitations. There are a fair few devils of difference hidden in the detail.
Bismarck and other ships were ready for Norway, but so was the RN...To put it mildly, Scandinavia doesn't end up as a happy hunting ground for the Nazis.
Keep it coming, chaps. Next up is the Americans.
Regards,
Simon
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 27, 2018 14:55:45 GMT
Lordroel, the Centurions used by the German Army were standard variants without any added extras. With the reformed German Army being able to use British Centurions and American M-48s themselves, which tank did the Germans find the best.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 27, 2018 14:58:22 GMT
The two were regarded as very close, with the Centurion just pipping the M-48 on account of it superior mobility.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 27, 2018 15:00:57 GMT
The two were regarded as very close, with the Centurion just pipping the M-48 on account of it superior mobility. But not good enough to keep using British ore American tanks and instead going back on building their own.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 27, 2018 15:05:42 GMT
As happened historically, the Germans needed big numbers to outfit their force and wanted to keep that expenditure and work concentrated within Germany.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 27, 2018 23:02:40 GMT
American Tank Development Part I: 1861-1919
The history of the American tank can be traced back to the US Civil War of 1861-1865 and the use of armoured steamwagons to move heavy artillery in the support of several protracted sieges, particularly those of Vicksburg and Petersburg, which served as a harbinger of the grim industrial warfare to come over the next century. Other means of moving siege guns around the battlefield proved to be extremely unwieldly in comparison to the reliability of the steamwagon. However, in the vastly reduced postwar army, these tactical lessons were forgotten vehicles were laid up like so much other heavy equipment for the next three decades. The bloody Indian Wars of the 1870s and 1880s were fought primarily with cavalry and the vast distances of the Great Plains highlighted the key weaknesses of the mechanical horse and the steamwagon – short tactical range and a lack of speed in comparison to their equine counterparts.
The next major conflict to involve the United States was the Spanish-American War of 1898-99. Although the most well-known battles of the conflict were primarily naval affairs, such as the Battle of Manila Bay in the Pacific and the grand clash of the battlefleets at the Battle of Santo Domingo in the West Indies, the protracted ground operations in Hispaniola gave some scope for the employment of armoured steam powered vehicles. Two Civil War era steamwagons were used to convey men and guns to the forward trenchlines alongside several smaller contraptions of more modern construction. Their utility was noted by several individuals of note, including Colonel William ‘Buffalo Bill’ Cody, General George Custer , Colonel Theodore Roosevelt of the 1st United States Volunteer Cavalry Regiment, better known to posterity as the ‘Rough Riders’ and former Presidents Ulysses S. Grant and Abraham Lincoln, who visited the battlefield during the protracted Siege of Santo Domingo.
As the 20th century dawned, the primary threat to the security of the United States was Germany. Relations between the two powers had been on a slow decline since the Caribbean Affair of 1895 and hit new depths with the 1902 Venezuela Crisis, which briefly put the two empires on the brink of war. The primary response to the menace of Imperial Germany came through the growing United States Navy and the formidable array of coastal artillery emplaced around East Coast ports, but also through an increase in the size of the United States Army to 125,000 by 1912 and a gradual introduction of powerful modern equipment. Armoured cars and Holt tractors were acquired in small numbers, with the latter permitting the movement of artillery across a variety of arcanely simulated broken country in annual maneuvers in 1910 and 1911. The Presidency of Theodore Roosevelt had seen an overall move towards preparedness that was tempered during William Jennings Bryan’s Democratic administration and its more pacific instincts. The bitterly fought election of 1912 saw the mercurial Roosevelt return to the White House in a most narrow triumph after the Whigs, Democrats and Socialists split the vote against him. The initial years of his third term were marked by cooling of relations with Mexico and considerable alarm at the deterioration of international relations in Europe.
The outbreak of war in July 1914 was met with general dismay and a generally unified determination to balance traditional neutrality with the protection of American interests in Europe and on the high seas. The early engagements between German and British cruiser and battlecruiser forces drew considerable attention and demonstrated that there was no guarantee that the conflict would not spill over into the Western Hemisphere. The subsequent Battles of the Falkland Islands and Trinidad bought events perilously close to American shores and put paid to many utopian hopes of confining the conflict to far-off Europe. This new war spread out across the globe like the Seven Years’ War, the Napoleonic Wars and the Crimean War, but unlike those, it was a true World War in its own right. Roosevelt’s policies of preparation of the United States Army to cope with a variety of contingencies lead to a rush of proposals for innovative weapons from luminaries such as Thomas Edison and unknown scientists alike. The US Army’s artillery park began a much needed expansion and modernization that would prove to be exceptionally prescient in the battles of 1917 and 1918. However, the American genius for manufacturing and the burgeoning strength of the automobile construction industry combined in its happiest marriage in the development of nascent armoured vehicles.
Edison’s Armoured Steamwagon proposal of 1912 was revisited in December 1914 and early 1915 as the armies of Europe became bogged down in the bloody slaughter of trench warfare and many minds across the Atlantic turned to the optimal means of achieving victory in the increasingly likely circumstance of American involvement. The updated design was a 69 ton tracked vehicle powered by two steam engines and capable of crossing a broken battlefield at 4mph while carrying an armament of four machine guns. Unlike the rhomboid vehicles then currently under secret development in Britain, Edison’s proposal was far more rounded and capable of higher road speeds over short distances. Independent design work was carried out by a number of manufacturing, arms and engineering concerns, with Bethlehem Steel’s Machine Gun Destroyer incorporating an angular ram prow for breaking through field works and wire defences. Perhaps the most interesting early American design was the Algernon Steam Triship, a 387t tricycle behemoth armed with multiple 2.95” mountain howitzers mounted in sponsons and powered by a unique system of clockwork automatons. The War Department declined to pursue development on grounds of practicality and the inventor was later committed to an asylum for attempting to smoke a herring. The debut of British and German tanks and landships in late 1915 proved to have a chilling effect on the myriad indigenous American armoured vehicle designs and the attentions of the War Department turned towards the development of improved European-type vehicles.
The United States of America declared war on the German Empire on March 3rd 1916, following a gradual series of provocations beginning with the heinous sinking of RMS Lusitania and culminating in the Zimmerman Telegram, which offered German support to Mexico to regain the territories lost in the war of 1848. President Roosevelt mustered the considerable ire of the U.S. public and began the arduous process of raising and arming the greatest force ever to leave the Americas under the command of General John Pershing. The first American troops reached France in July 1916, memorably proclaiming ”Lafayette, we are here!” before the tomb of the Revolutionary War hero, but it would take over a year before US forces could be independently deployed in the field in appreciable numbers, due to the sheer size of the logistical task before them. One of the key early decisions taken to ameliorate the difficulties of supply was to employ, where possible, the standard munitions and armaments of the more experienced Allies, which lead to the adoption of British heavy and French light tanks during the campaigns of 1917 and 1918. An Anglo-American joint effort for the development and production of a new heavy tank began in November 1916, but was not expected to produce appreciable numbers of vehicles for at least a year. In the interim, licenced production of existing Allied models was the only means available to supply US armoured forces.
The first tank to enter mass production in the United States was the Mark IV heavy tank, which augmented British production and saw service with the American Expeditionary Force’s newly established United States Army Tank Corps at the Battle of Arras and the First Battle of St. Mihiel, the latter being the AEF’s first major independent victory in the latter half of 1917. It was well liked for its toughness, hard-hitting armament and relative reliability, but there were never enough available for decisive employment nor for coping with the numerous mechanical casualties and battle losses that came with such a war. Twenty-six were destroyed in one of the most devastating German draconic attacks of the latter half of the war in the early stages of the Battle of Arras. 390 were built in the United States during 1917, but the Mark IV was always intended as an interim type while the Anglo-American Mark VIII or ‘Liberty tank’ was developed.
The Renault FT-17 proved exceptionally popular and well-suited to the American way of war, which emphasized offensive action and the continual application of heavy firepower along the enemy front. French industrial capacity had its limitations and the Inter-Allied Tank Commission recommended that the Renault FT be manufactured in the United States. Several vehicles, plans and parts were shipped across the Atlantic aboard the battlecruiser USS Powhatan to the Ordnance Department. Orders were placed with several private armaments concerns for the manufacture of tanks and, despite initial difficulties from incompatible measures and bureaucratic bumbling, the first American vehicles rolled off the production line in November 1917. A total of 1265 were built out of a total order of 5800 over the course of 1918 and they served as the mainstay of the peacetime American tank force of the 1920s.
In January 1918, the first of 1032 US manufactured Mark VIIIs entered service with the AEF, representing a substantial increase in capability over the Mark IV and light tanks through the firepower of its 12pdr main gun and sponson mounted 6pdrs and its more powerful engines. It would prove to be the backbone of the U.S. Tank Corps in the bitter fighting which halted the German Spring Offensive and the great successes of the Allied Meuse-Argonne and Lorraine Offensives that followed in the Hundred Days that ended the war. The tremendous victory at the Siege of Metz and the vaunted achievements of Pershing’s tough dwarven artillerymen from the Appalachian and Rockies would not have been possible without the grinding breakthroughs spearheaded by the Liberty Tanks that allowed the doughboys to encircle and reduce an entire German field army. During the final weeks of pursuit through to the Rhine, many Mark VIIIs were hastily adapted to include a shielded position for AEF wizards atop the main turret in order to suppress hastily erected enemy field positions; most were removed postwar in the great contraction of the Tank Corps.
One of the less successful vehicles planned for the U.S. Tank Corps was the Ford 5-ton M1918 light tank. Design as a cheap alternative to the FT suitable for mass production, 20,000 vehicles were ordered in March 1918, but only 102 were produced by the Armistice in November. A small, two-man light tank armed with a single .30/06 machine gun, the M1918 had a short operational range, was not substantially faster than the heavy and medium tanks of the time and was markedly inferior to the FT in firepower and top speed. The single squadron that did see action in France proved that it did have a certain degree of viability on the battlefield when used to escort infantry during the pursuit phase of an offensive, but overall, the vehicle was too small and too slow to provide a useful basis for future development.
The rapid German collapse in the latter half of 1918 came as a surprise to the Allied High Command, who had expected the war to carry over into 1919. This was reflected by the extensive plans put in place to effect a decisive defeat of the Imperial German Army in the field in that year, the strategy known as Plan 1919. Initially developed by then Colonel J.F.C. Fuller, one of the British Army’s most prescient armoured warfare thinkers, it called for a breakthrough by concentrated artillery, infantry and almost 5000 heavy and superheavy tanks to be followed by a fast thrust by thousands of medium and light tanks into the enemy’s rear, destroying headquarters, supply dumps and railheads and ravaging their lines of communication. This would be supported by several thousand aeroplanes specially designed for bombing and trench fighting and the use of new, powerful war gasses. The role of the American Expeditionary Force would come to the fore in this strategy, Pershing’s reinforced army group of 76 divisions providing the southern arm of the grand assault and American factories producing ever increasing numbers of Medium Mark As and Mark VIII Heavy tanks to arm the grand alliance.
The final American tank project of 1918 emerged directly from the ambitious scope of Plan 1919 and was quite possibly the most powerful Allied tank of the Great War. Unfortunately for its proponents, it never saw action in the manner of the British Dreadnoughts, but the 138t M1920 Superheavy tank represents the epitome of the first decade of American tank design. It was armed with a 5” gun capable of penetrating the armour of any enemy tank and wreaking untold havoc on all but the most formidable fieldworks and protected by almost three inches of frontal armour plate, a colossal amount for this era. Whilst the M1920 could not quite reach the top speed of the Dreadnought, it was surprisingly maneuverable for a tank of such sheer bulk. It’s one downfall can be deduced by its designation, as the protracted development process meant that the war had finished by the time design work and the testing of a prototype had been completed. Only four M1920s were produced in the atmosphere of rapid retrenchment that pervaded the U.S. military establishment in the immediate postwar years. They would remain immobile and seemingly forgotten for over two decades until their own rendezvous with destiny.
Overall, the few American tanks of the Great War were successful vehicles that represented variations of and improvements upon their British and French counterparts, belying the wide range of unorthodox and creative designs that had so permeated peacetime. Like the other victorious Allies, the U.S. Army would greatly reduce the numbers of their postwar tank force in the heady throes of peace as the true role of tanks and other tracked armoured vehicles was the subject of intense debate and theorizing. The years ahead would be lean and bitter, but their eventual harvest was bountiful.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 27, 2018 23:03:41 GMT
American Tank Development Part II: 1920-1939
The peacetime tank force of the U.S. Army was substantially smaller in comparison to the heady heights reached in November 1918 and the United States Army Tank Corps itself was a casualty of this contraction, being disbanded as a separate branch of the Army in 1920. General Pershing had recommended in mid-1919 to the Joint Committee on Military Affairs that tanks be placed under the operational control of the infantry branch and advocates of independent armoured operations such as Colonel George S. Patton were faint voices in the wilderness against the great clamour for retrenchment. One heavy and two light tank regiments were formed to control the rump force remaining in active service, with the 67th Infantry (Heavy Tank) Regiment commanded by Colonel Dwight D. Eisenhower, a respected combat veteran who had won renown in the Battle of Alsace and the 66th Infantry (Light Tank) Regiment under the hard-charging former cavalryman Patton. The Mark VIII Liberty tanks and the M1917s soldiered on through the quiet years of the early 1920s, engaging in regular exercises around their headquarters at Fort Meade, Maryland and generally disappearing from both popular attention.
American foreign military operations were mainly the province of the United States Marine Corps in this era and a small number of light tanks were seconded for service in China, Central America and the Philippines, planting the seed for future Marine armoured tactics and requirements. The Mark VIIIs soon faded into relative obsolescence and a requirement for their replacement lead to the General Staff’s acquiescence for the development of a new medium tank in 1924. The subsequent M1925 Medium Tank was a 20 ton vehicle armed with a turreted 57mm gun and capable of the heady top speed of 16mph, its weight and dimensions being constrained by the limitations of pontoon bridges set by the Corps of Engineers. A total of 236 were produced between 1926 and 1933, serving mainly as training vehicles apart from limited anti-bandit operations along the Mexican border in the height of the Great Depression. 28 earlier variants were sold to Argentina in 1931 and were among the most modern tanks employed in the dreadful fighting of the Chaco War, which saw most of South America enveloped in bloody conflict.
The venerable M1917s reached the end of the effective service life in 1926 and a requirement for its replacement lead to the T1 light tank programme. A 9 ton vehicle armed with a semi-automatic 37mm gun and a co-axial .30 calibre M1919 Browning machine gun, it was protected by up to an inch of armour, reached a top speed of 24mph and performed creditably in cross-country trials. The T1 was a therefore a success in three out of the four essential components of armoured vehicle design, failing only in the area of politics, due to tight peacetime finances and support for the international reduction of armaments. Only four prototype vehicles were built before the programme was cancelled in 1928. The M1917s would continue to soldier on until 1937 when the last vehicles were finally retired from active service; thirty tanks were transferred to the Philippines where they saw brief service against Japanese invasion forces in 1941. There, they delivered several unpleasant shocks to unprepared infantry assaults before being overwhelmed by sheer enemy numbers, hastily employed light artillery and several hitherto secret Japanese combat spells.
The beginning of the end of the locust years of American tank development came in 1928, when Secretary of War Dwight F. Davis authorized the re-organization of the Tank Corps in response to noteworthy armoured developments in Britain, the Soviet Union and France. It is perhaps historically ironic that the comparatively brief cooling of Anglo-American relations between the wars provided the foundations for their subsequent flowering and glorious victory, but worthy of examination nonetheless. The early planning stages of what would become War Plan Red called for a three pronged assault on Eastern Canada aimed at Halifax, Montreal and Toronto through the teeth of the strongest and most well-established Canadian border fortifications before any possibility of British intervention by the coordinated use of superheavy artillery, poison gas, dragonstrikes and tanks. This in turn lead to an operational requirement for a new, modern heavy tank, the 76t M1930. Development was partway complete before being severely reduced in priority the next year as the Great Depression took a stranglehold on Federal government spending. The design went through substantial revision over the next three years before production finally began in 1935. The M1930A4 was a heavily protected behemoth, with maximum frontal armour of 110mm and reached a steady top road speed of 20mph. It was noteworthy as the last American tank to feature heavy armament in sponsons, carrying a pair of 57mm guns as well as a 4.7” gun in the main turret. A total of 93 tanks were built between 1935 and 1939, serving in a limited training role in the Continental United States during the Second World War, being too heavy for overseas transport; much use was made of them in several propaganda pictures and newsreels during the early days of American participation in the conflict.
As well as the death of one tank type, 1931 saw the birth of another. General Douglas MacArthur had been appointed Chief of Staff of the United States Army in November 1930 and made his mark as a strong supporter of mechanization of the Army. The infantry and cavalry were directed to adopt motorized transport and mechanized armoured vehicles in 1931, lifting the previous limitation on the development of and operation of tanks. The primary requirement of both arms of service was for a fast, mobile light tank and the Rock Island Arsenal began design work in late 1932. Japanese aggression and expansionism in Manchuria gave additional impetus to the programme, as well as influencing President Roosevelt’s decision to begin increasing defence funding. The prototype of the 16 ton M2 light tank was completed in 1934 and it proved to be extremely successful in both the infantry and cavalry roles. Reaching a top speed of 38mph, it was equipped with a new high velocity 37mm gun and a superior new vertical volute spring suspension and was protected by up to 2 inches of armour. Production began in October 1935 and 1142 had been built by the outbreak of the Second World War in 1939. It was supplied to the British, French and Canadian armies in 1940 and 1941 as the formidable arsenal of democracy that was the United States began to mobilize for war, being given the nickname ‘Stuart’, after the famed Confederate cavalry commander. The various marks of the M2 saw ubiquitous service in the U.S. Army from 1942 to 1945. A total of 23,487 were built between 1935 and 1944, ranking it as one of the most produced tanks in history.
The expansion of the U.S. Army’s tank programme took on ever greater pace and significance from the mid 1930s as the mechanized cavalry and infantry tank regiments were organized in a single Armored Force in 1938 after recommendations from an august board of review chaired by General Adna R. Chaffee. It was renamed the 1st Armored Division in December 1939 in reaction to the outbreak of war in Europe and placed under Chaffee’s command. The majority of the cavalry regiments of the Army had already been converted from mounted units to light tanks and armoured cars by this stage and production orders for the M2 were greatly increased to reflect the ever-growing demand. It was intended that the 1st Armored Division and future tank units would be organized as square divisions with one medium and one light tank brigade, which placed additional urgency to an existing requirement for a modern medium tank.
The M1925 had never been regarded as fully satisfactory and various unsuccessful proposals had been fielded for its replacement since the late 1920s. In January 1936, an enlarged variant of the M2 light tank was chosen for development, sharing many components with the earlier, proven design. Originally designated the T5, the M2 Medium Tank weighed 20 tons and entered production in October 1938 for an initial order of 200 vehicles. It was powered by a supercharged Wright R-975 radial aeroengine and was capable of reaching a top speed of 28mph in optimal conditions. The 57mm armament was somewhat lighter than some of its European counterparts, but it was solidly protected by up to two inches of armour and regarded as a well-rounded vehicle. Mass production was to take place at the vast new Detroit Army Tank Plant and a contract for 1500 tanks was placed by the U.S. Government in June 1940. Overseas events were to prove to be the Achilles heel of what would have previously been regarded a satisfactory vehicle, as the Battle of France demonstrated the distinct vulnerability of existing Allied medium tanks to modern German tank and anti-tank guns. The existing M2s were to be employed for training purposes whilst new, more powerful tanks were produced in mass quantities.
The last fugacious years of peace were marked by the nascent stages in the development of two medium tanks and one heavy tank that would be the mainstay of the U.S. Army and myriad Allied forces in the terrible war to come, one of which was to be produced in numbers never matched in the entire of the Western world. Whilst American tank development between the wars ultimately produced but one singularly successful vehicle in the form of the M2 Light Tank, the others served as important steps in the evolution of armoured warfare design and practice in the United States.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 28, 2018 6:58:26 GMT
American Tank Development Part I: 1861-1919The history of the American tank can be traced back to the US Civil War of 1861-1865 and the use of armoured steamwagons to move heavy artillery in the support of several protracted sieges, particularly those of Vicksburg and Petersburg, which served as a harbinger of the grim industrial warfare to come over the next century. armored steamwagons in the Civil War and it seems the Union forces where the once that deployed them the most.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 28, 2018 10:11:27 GMT
Sdarkshade Interesting and a few points come to attention. a) That the US enters WWI a year earlier, which probably makes the CPs lasting until Nov 18 unlikely simply because you have a fairly fully tooled up US Army available for ~18 months instead of ~6. Mind you the Germans hold out until the Rhine is crossed so that is a significant difference. Plus the larger pre-war army means the massive expansion isn't as destructive of the armies quality as there is a markedly larger force of trained troops to draw upon. b) That Custer among others survived longer than OTL, which was probably not too good for the US army. c) That the USN is significantly different if they have BCs in WWI. OTL the USN concentrated almost solely on large, well protected but slow capital ships and heavy cruisers with relatively few scout units and no fast, big ones. Hopefully the USS Powhatan was a better design than the OTL Lexingtons, although the early British BCs also had problems with getting the balance right in protection, speed and armament.
d) Notice there was also a naval battle off Trinidad between the RN and the Germans in TTL. Presumably the larger fleets available all round meant the Germans had more ships and possibly some BCs on the prowl and disrupting trade.
e) Post-war the US is a bit better off in their design limits as OTL I think the bridging limit on tank tonnage was only 10 tons!
f) Going back to politics Byrant gets a successful run for the Presidency, which would definitely have some impacts then Teddy returned to power so the US is better prepared. Sounds like this means no Wilson Presidency.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 28, 2018 10:20:26 GMT
American Tank Development Part I: 1861-1919General George Custer Does this mean that unlike OTL he decides to take Gatling guns to the Little Bighorn.
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