James G
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Post by James G on Jul 5, 2018 19:18:30 GMT
In the 20th Century, there have been plans made to launch wars. Some very serious, some speculative.
I can think of a few off the top of my head.
1) Operation Unthinkable
The Western Allies of WW2 against the Soviet Union straight after beating Nazi Germany. It was mostly a Churchill scheme and no one else seemed to want to even think about it. What a fight it would have been!
2) Exercise / Operation Armageddon
A very speculative plan by the top of the Irish government in 1970 to invade Northern Ireland for humanitarian reasons. I would imagine the fallout would have been quite significant.
3) Operation Soberania
Argentina's detailed plan, an operation ready to go, to invade and fight Chile in 1978. There appears to be confusion over whether the invasion got going in terms of going into Chile but Argentina did put it into action before ordering an abort after a few hours without shots being fired.
Can anyone else think of some more?
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spanishspy
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Post by spanishspy on Jul 5, 2018 19:23:19 GMT
The War of the Stray Dog and the Pig War becoming something even bigger, off the top of my head.
Also Korea going hot anytime after 1953.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 5, 2018 19:24:33 GMT
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Jul 6, 2018 6:52:02 GMT
There could also have been a new war around 1962 with the transfer of Dutch New Guinea to Indonesia. All it would have taken would be not Vietnam war for the Americans to be willing to have another war in Asia.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 6, 2018 6:55:06 GMT
There could also have been a new war around 1962 with the transfer of Dutch New Guinea to Indonesia. All it would have taken would be not Vietnam war for the Americans to be willing to have another war in Asia. A you are speaking about Operation Trikora, would have ended badly for the Netherlands if it went ever gone to war. |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Jul 6, 2018 7:10:13 GMT
There could also have been a new war around 1962 with the transfer of Dutch New Guinea to Indonesia. All it would have taken would be not Vietnam war for the Americans to be willing to have another war in Asia. A you are speaking about Operation Trikora, would have ended badly for the Netherlands if it went ever gone to war. Yes, it would indeed have been very bad. But without the Americans distracted in Vietnam, it would have been much more interesting. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 6, 2018 7:14:36 GMT
A you are speaking about Operation Trikora, would have ended badly for the Netherlands if it went ever gone to war. Yes, it would indeed have been very bad. But without the Americans distracted in Vietnam, it would have been much more interesting. So far as i know Kennedy sold the Netherlands out as he wanted Indonesia to remain communist free, doubt he is going to change that. In bed with the killers |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 6, 2018 8:27:17 GMT
Yes, it would indeed have been very bad. But without the Americans distracted in Vietnam, it would have been much more interesting. So far as i know Kennedy sold the Netherlands out as he wanted Indonesia to remain communist free, doubt he is going to change that. In bed with the killers
One option here might have been if Britain realised that after annexing the region Indonesia would turn its attention to Malaysian Borneo. Or possibly - although unlikely - Sukarno had been stupid enough to attack Malaysia 1st. You could then have seen attacks on Dutch New Guinea drawn into the conflict with Britain and the Indonesians losing both. Possibly even the establishment of a unified Borneo state separated by both and Western New Guinea becoming independent plus possibly linking up with Papua New Guinea?
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Post by lukedalton on Jul 6, 2018 16:22:41 GMT
Well after the Messina Earthquake of 1908 Conrad tried to launch a punitive expedition to Italy to teach them a lesson...but was stopped by FF
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 6, 2018 16:32:23 GMT
Well after the Messina Earthquake of 1908 Conrad tried to launch a punitive expedition to Italy to teach them a lesson...but was stopped by FF Never knew about this, any more detail. |
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Post by lukedalton on Jul 6, 2018 21:38:19 GMT
Well after the Messina Earthquake of 1908 Conrad tried to launch a punitive expedition to Italy to teach them a lesson...but was stopped by FF Never knew about this, any more detail. Conrad hated with passion both Italy and Serbia and thought that a 'short victorios war' was what needed to prop up the Empire and teach a lesson to anyone that had interest in taking land from A-H; plus he really hated Italy and Serbia (already said that?). He pestered the goverment to launch a pre-empetive attack to one side or another many many times, the most serious time for Italy were on 1908 and 1911, during the war in Libya...he insisted too much and this was one of the reason for his first dimission; ironically it was FF, a man that hated the italians just slightly less of Conrad that stopped the war proposal, but he already knew that a move like that will have justs endangered the Empire for little gain |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Jul 7, 2018 8:04:02 GMT
Yes, it would indeed have been very bad. But without the Americans distracted in Vietnam, it would have been much more interesting. So far as i know Kennedy sold the Netherlands out as he wanted Indonesia to remain communist free, doubt he is going to change that. In bed with the killersHe did, but as far as I know, he was influenced by the developing situation in Indochina, which could have gone differently. Or of course, you could have the Indonesians make stronger moves towards the Soviets first, drawing in the Americans. The idea with the British and Malaysia would also work of course. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 7, 2018 9:03:18 GMT
One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far was the almost certainly disastrous plan to attack Baku in 1939/40 to punish the Soviets for attacking the Finns and also cut oil supplies to the Nazis.
Also apparently Greece had plans for war with Turkey ~1914 with an operation to seize the Straits and other parts of Anatolia. See Greek plans for war with Turkey, post 134 and some following ones where its mentioned in a naval discussion. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 7, 2018 9:04:29 GMT
So far as i know Kennedy sold the Netherlands out as he wanted Indonesia to remain communist free, doubt he is going to change that. In bed with the killersHe did, but as far as I know, he was influenced by the developing situation in Indochina, which could have gone differently. Or of course, you could have the Indonesians make stronger moves towards the Soviets first, drawing in the Americans. The idea with the British and Malaysia would also work of course. Depending on the time Indonesia begins their attack on Netherlands New Guinea, it will have to face this forces who where under the command of the Commander of the forces in Netherlands New Guinea (Dutch: Commandant Strijdkrachten Nieuw-Guinea, COSTRING), so you can see, the Netherlands is outgunned and outmatch by a Indonesians/Soviet assault force. This list is based on May 1st 1962 and is not updated to reflect the Netherlands forces when Operation Trikora was to take place around the summer of 1962. Royal Netherlands Army6th Infantry Battalion (6IB)The six infantry companies belonging to consist mostly out of conscripts, they are position at the west-and southwest of New Guinea, the Royal Netherlands Marine Corps act as a mobile reserve located at Biak and Manokwari, the locations of the six infantry companies spread across Netherlands New Guinea was: Battalion-staff, supply and 3 companies (A, E en F) operating from Sorong. B companie operating from Kaimana. C ccompanie operating from Fak Fak. D companie operating from Merauke. The three outer companies (B, C en D) where placed under the operational command of the Commander of the forces in Netherlands New GuineaCOSTRING, the highest naval authority. Infantry Security Peloton The Infantry Security Peloton (Dutch: Infanterie Beveiligingspeloton) is a force of 40 men consisting of 3 tirailleurs groups each consisting of 2 Bren Groups and 3 snipers witch a mortars groups for support. Papuan Volunteer CorpsThe Papuan Volunteer Corps (Dutch: Papoea Vrijwilligers Korps, PVVK) is a corps consisting entirely of Papuans, formed on February 21st 1961. It was established to contribute to the defense of Netherlands New Guinea against the infiltration of the Indonesian Army. The corps serve as a semi-military police and consist of five pelotons of 37 men. Royal Netherlands Marine Corps5 infantry companies and 2 recon and intelligences-pelotons belonging to the 4th marine battalion. Korps CommandotroepenA detachment belonging to the Korps Commandotroepen (Special forces) located at navy airbase Biak. Air Defense Command for New Guinea (Dutch: Commando Luchtverdediging Nederlands Nieuw-Guinea) consisting of:322 (fighter) Squadron, 22 Hawker Hunter Mk.4 AD and Mk.6 AD fighters and two Alouette II SAR helicopters located at navy airbase Biak (Dutch: Marinevliegkamp Biak). 321 (Maritime patrol) Squadron, 12 Lockheed P-2 Neptune maritime patrol and ASW aircraft located at navy airbase Biak. 336 (Transport) Squadron, six Douglas DC-3 transport aircraft located at navy airbase Biak. 2 type 15 Mk IV raders located at navy airbase Biak A radar navigation system at Biak, and a reserve airstrip at Noemfoer. 7e Afdeling Lichte LuchtdoelartillerieN-peloton (equipped with Bofors 40 mm L/70 anti-aircraft guns) located at Hollandia. A detachment navy anti-air artillery at navy airbase Biak. Royal Netherlands NavyFriesland-Class destroyersHNLMS Friesland HNLMS Groningen HNLMS Limburg S-class destroyerHNLMS Kortenaar HNLMS Evertsen Dolfijn-class submarine HNLMS Dolfijn Balao-class submarineHNLMS Zeeleeuw Luymes-class survey vesselHNLMS Luymes HNLMS Snellius Other schips 16 landing crafts, (LT's, LCPR’s and LCA's). 2 tug boats. 84 zodiac-rubber boats. Several motor sloops and auxiliary ships. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 7, 2018 9:16:44 GMT
He did, but as far as I know, he was influenced by the developing situation in Indochina, which could have gone differently. Or of course, you could have the Indonesians make stronger moves towards the Soviets first, drawing in the Americans. The idea with the British and Malaysia would also work of course. Depending on the time Indonesia begins their attack on Netherlands New Guinea, it will have to face this forces who where under the command of the Commander of the forces in Netherlands New Guinea (Dutch: Commandant Strijdkrachten Nieuw-Guinea, COSTRING), so you can see, the Netherlands is outgunned and outmatch by a Indonesians/Soviet assault force. This list is based on May 1st 1962 and is not updated to reflect the Netherlands forces when Operation Trikora was to take place around the summer of 1962. Royal Netherlands Army6th Infantry Battalion (6IB)The six infantry companies belonging to consist mostly out of conscripts, they are position at the west-and southwest of New Guinea, the Royal Netherlands Marine Corps act as a mobile reserve located at Biak and Manokwari, the locations of the six infantry companies spread across Netherlands New Guinea was: Battalion-staff, supply and 3 companies (A, E en F) operating from Sorong. B companie operating from Kaimana. C ccompanie operating from Fak Fak. D companie operating from Merauke. The three outer companies (B, C en D) where placed under the operational command of the Commander of the forces in Netherlands New GuineaCOSTRING, the highest naval authority. Infantry Security Peloton The Infantry Security Peloton (Dutch: Infanterie Beveiligingspeloton) is a force of 40 men consisting of 3 tirailleurs groups each consisting of 2 Bren Groups and 3 snipers witch a mortars groups for support. Papuan Volunteer CorpsThe Papuan Volunteer Corps (Dutch: Papoea Vrijwilligers Korps, PVVK) is a corps consisting entirely of Papuans, formed on February 21st 1961. It was established to contribute to the defense of Netherlands New Guinea against the infiltration of the Indonesian Army. The corps serve as a semi-military police and consist of five pelotons of 37 men. Royal Netherlands Marine Corps5 infantry companies and 2 recon and intelligences-pelotons belonging to the 4th marine battalion. Korps CommandotroepenA detachment belonging to the Korps Commandotroepen (Special forces) located at navy airbase Biak. Air Defense Command for New Guinea (Dutch: Commando Luchtverdediging Nederlands Nieuw-Guinea) consisting of:322 (fighter) Squadron, 22 Hawker Hunter Mk.4 AD and Mk.6 AD fighters and two Alouette II SAR helicopters located at navy airbase Biak (Dutch: Marinevliegkamp Biak). 321 (Maritime patrol) Squadron, 12 Lockheed P-2 Neptune maritime patrol and ASW aircraft located at navy airbase Biak. 336 (Transport) Squadron, six Douglas DC-3 transport aircraft located at navy airbase Biak. 2 type 15 Mk IV raders located at navy airbase Biak A radar navigation system at Biak, and a reserve airstrip at Noemfoer. 7e Afdeling Lichte LuchtdoelartillerieN-peloton (equipped with Bofors 40 mm L/70 anti-aircraft guns) located at Hollandia. A detachment navy anti-air artillery at navy airbase Biak. Royal Netherlands NavyFriesland-Class destroyersHNLMS Friesland HNLMS Groningen HNLMS Limburg S-class destroyerHNLMS Kortenaar HNLMS Evertsen Dolfijn-class submarine HNLMS Dolfijn Balao-class submarineHNLMS Zeeleeuw Luymes-class survey vesselHNLMS Luymes HNLMS Snellius Other schips 16 landing crafts, (LT's, LCPR’s and LCA's). 2 tug boats. 84 zodiac-rubber boats. Several motor sloops and auxiliary ships.
Would the most important forces being the naval - since the Indonesians are basically attacking an island - and the air force - to detect and possibly attack Indonesian ships and possibly a/c as for their attacks on Sarawak the Indonesians also used some airbourne landings.
The other important thing would be how much help the Dutch could get from the locals as this was very important in Sarawak. Suspect they would be favourable of avoiding rule from Java.
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