Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352 
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Feb 21, 2019 22:40:56 GMT
Has anyone ever read 'What if Israel lost'? It deals with Israel being defeated by an Arab coalition in the 70s. Israel is dismantled, raped and its remaining people scattered worldwide. It is an unpleasant story though has no Sampson Option. No, but shit does that short description sound depressing. Is it a book, or an online TL, or something else entirely--and do you have a link in the case that it is indeed somewhere on the web? Thank you in advance, Zyobot |
|
James G
Squadron vice admiral
Posts: 7,608
Likes: 8,833
|
Post by James G on Feb 21, 2019 22:44:11 GMT
Its a book. I read it in a library once. It was written in 1969 and I've just seen it on Amazon - called If Israel lost the War; author Richard Chesnoff - and it is rather expensive: £119.00.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,225
|
Post by stevep on Feb 21, 2019 23:49:55 GMT
Somehow, I fear that a Middle Eastern conflict on this scale may escalate into World War Three. Of course, whether I'm right or not depends on lots of additional factors.
Its possible but would really need for at least two 'super-powers' to be on opposing sides AND willing to go far enough for their respective sides that they stumble into a full out war. I say two super-powers because its just possible that one of those in the future might be China rather than Russia or the US, although that still seems unlikely in the near future.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,225
|
Post by stevep on Feb 21, 2019 23:57:05 GMT
Its a book. I read it in a library once. It was written in 1969 and I've just seen it on Amazon - called If Israel lost the War; author Richard Chesnoff - and it is rather expensive: £119.00.
Gods that's costly. Also as zyobot says a depressing story. Suspect its very unlikely that Israel would go down without a fight, even if it was a case of taking there enemies with them.
Not really related but back in 78/79 there was a story called something like the Crash of 79, which resulted from a conflict in the ME. However this was a move by the Shah of Iran, aided by an Israeli scientist who help them develop nuclear weapons, to seize control of the main oil sources of the Gulf, i.e, crushing Iraq and then occupying Kuwait and eastern Saudi. Pretty unrealistic but had some interesting ideas.
The ironic thing was I think I read it in ~1979/80 and they were advertising it as foretelling the problems developing then, despite it being about a successful Shah rather than the collapse of his regime.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,988
Likes: 49,390
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 22, 2019 1:44:28 GMT
Its a book. I read it in a library once. It was written in 1969 and I've just seen it on Amazon - called If Israel lost the War; author Richard Chesnoff - and it is rather expensive: £119.00. I read the Wikipedia article of it, its the one where the Netherlands is the only country to help Israel in its fight. |
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Feb 22, 2019 3:39:44 GMT
Going back to the "Arabian-Israeli War" or whatever people decide to call it, when do we think is a reasonable time frame for such a conflict to take place in--the 2020s, 2030s, or maybe even later than that?
The lightning-fast pace of technological advancement nowadays also ties into when it occurs, and will of course show itself in militaries' development and new sets of capabilities as time passes. Due to the prospect of such rapid and defining changes, the very way that warfare itself is conducted could be fundamentally altered by their emergence.
|
|
|
|
Post by Middlesex_Toffeeman on Feb 22, 2019 7:26:11 GMT
Its a book. I read it in a library once. It was written in 1969 and I've just seen it on Amazon - called If Israel lost the War; author Richard Chesnoff - and it is rather expensive: £119.00. I read the Wikipedia article of it, its the one where the Netherlands is the only country to help Israel in its fight. Which strikes me as pretty unrealistic - Britain and America aren't going to go "I'm all right, Jack" and leave the Israelis to die. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,988
Likes: 49,390
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 22, 2019 8:21:12 GMT
I read the Wikipedia article of it, its the one where the Netherlands is the only country to help Israel in its fight. Which strikes me as pretty unrealistic - Britain and America aren't going to go "I'm all right, Jack" and leave the Israelis to die. And which would be very unlikely in any future conflict Israel might have with the Arab world, the United states would back them up, do not know what the United kingdom would do. |
|
James G
Squadron vice admiral
Posts: 7,608
Likes: 8,833
|
Post by James G on Feb 22, 2019 9:44:06 GMT
The story IIRC has a hypothetical situation concerning why the US walked away. It's alternate history and did give a reasonable reason.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,225
|
Post by stevep on Feb 22, 2019 12:18:20 GMT
Its a book. I read it in a library once. It was written in 1969 and I've just seen it on Amazon - called If Israel lost the War; author Richard Chesnoff - and it is rather expensive: £119.00. I read the Wikipedia article of it, its the one where the Netherlands is the only country to help Israel in its fight.
Well they might have that correct. The Netherlands were the only country in Europe IIRC who rejected Arab/OPEC demands in 1973 and hence faced an oil embargo. I can't see them getting militarily involved but they could be willing to supply weapons, especially if they feared an Israeli collapse which is likely to end in a nuclear conflict.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,225
|
Post by stevep on Feb 22, 2019 12:23:03 GMT
Going back to the "Arabian-Israeli War" or whatever people decide to call it, when do we think is a reasonable time frame for such a conflict to take place in--the 2020s, 2030s, or maybe even later than that? The lightning-fast pace of technological advancement nowadays also ties into when it occurs, and will of course show itself in militaries' development and new sets of capabilities as time passes. Due to the prospect of such rapid and defining changes, the very way that warfare itself is conducted could be fundamentally altered by their emergence.
Well I presume that when the book was written the author assumed sometime in the 70's. As you say with technological changes, along with political ones, occurring so rapidly its difficult to say with something too far in the future. I remember seeing programmes in the 1970's probably not long after the 73 war, which was predicting several powers in the region having nukes within a couple of decades I think, most definitely including Egypt that was still seen as the prime foe of Israel.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,988
Likes: 49,390
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 22, 2019 12:28:29 GMT
Going back to the "Arabian-Israeli War" or whatever people decide to call it, when do we think is a reasonable time frame for such a conflict to take place in--the 2020s, 2030s, or maybe even later than that? The lightning-fast pace of technological advancement nowadays also ties into when it occurs, and will of course show itself in militaries' development and new sets of capabilities as time passes. Due to the prospect of such rapid and defining changes, the very way that warfare itself is conducted could be fundamentally altered by their emergence. Well I presume that when the book was written the author assumed sometime in the 70's. As you say with technological changes, along with political ones, occurring so rapidly its difficult to say with something too far in the future. I remember seeing programmes in the 1970's probably not long after the 73 war, which was predicting several powers in the region having nukes within a couple of decades I think, most definitely including Egypt that was still seen as the prime foe of Israel.
Would be cool to see Egyptian Dassault Rafales and MiG-35 fighters they will field versus the Israeli F-15s and F-35 Lightning IIs, do not think Israel needs to worry much about Jordan who fields only F-16s. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,836
Likes: 13,225
|
Post by stevep on Feb 22, 2019 12:28:33 GMT
I read the Wikipedia article of it, its the one where the Netherlands is the only country to help Israel in its fight. Which strikes me as pretty unrealistic - Britain and America aren't going to go "I'm all right, Jack" and leave the Israelis to die.
I doubt the US will unless there's a serious cultural change or some major conflict between the two. Possibly is the trigger for the war was say a decision by an hard line religious government in Israel to 'solve' the west bank problem by simply deporting all the Palestinians from the region - quite possibly from Israel as well. That could alienate even most of the US. Also there's what is happening with Russia and China as the three great powers would be concerned with minimising any problems.
Britain is unlikely to have a significant role to play. We're declined too much, both in the desire to project power and the ability to do so. Even if we started getting decent and competent government that is not going to change for quite a while if at all depending on how things developed both in Britain and around the world.
|
|
|
|
Post by Middlesex_Toffeeman on Feb 22, 2019 14:37:28 GMT
Which strikes me as pretty unrealistic - Britain and America aren't going to go "I'm all right, Jack" and leave the Israelis to die. And which would be very unlikely in any future conflict Israel might have with the Arab world, the United states would back them up, do not know what the United kingdom would do. We are an American ally and given that we got involved in the Iraq cockup on their orders, which managed to replace one repressive dictatorship with another slightly less repressive one, I feel we would jump to the Israelis' aid if they were attacked by Russian/Iranian allied juntas; being the only liberal democracy in the Middle East tends to one's country well. (and before anyone starts up about Israeli "apartheid", Arab citizens - the "oppressed" group in Israel - have the same rights as all other Israelis, whether or not they are Jews. The same did not apply to black South Africans.) |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,988
Likes: 49,390
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 22, 2019 14:48:20 GMT
And which would be very unlikely in any future conflict Israel might have with the Arab world, the United states would back them up, do not know what the United kingdom would do. We are an American ally and given that we got involved in the Iraq cockup on their orders, which managed to replace one repressive dictatorship with another slightly less repressive one, I feel we would jump to the Israelis' aid if they were attacked by Russian/Iranian allied juntas; being the only liberal democracy in the Middle East tends to one's country well. (and before anyone starts up about Israeli "apartheid", Arab citizens - the "oppressed" group in Israel - have the same rights as all other Israelis, whether or not they are Jews. The same did not apply to black South Africans.) Not going to judge Israel, it might have its flaws and people might look at it and wonder what they are doing but i think we need to get this thread back into the rails and ask us, who would win a war as the first post says in the future becuase i would love seeing this ship, a Sa'ar 6-class corvette in action.  |
|
