lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 2, 2019 20:35:35 GMT
I think that is the last thing the Allies want to see happening, a divided Europe like OTL with a Cold War but with a twist that one of the allies powers is from the future and which has experience the OTL Cold War and the danger that came along with it. While I'd be averse to a redone Cold War as well, I'm uncertain how the Western Allies plan to avoid it. Maybe it'd be mitigated in part by them being more adamant with the USSR about ensuring a liberal-democratic (perhaps even capitalistic!) Eastern Europe this time around? If they are smart Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria stay neutral and they might preserve their monarchies. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on May 2, 2019 20:40:45 GMT
While I'd be averse to a redone Cold War as well, I'm uncertain how the Western Allies plan to avoid it. Maybe it'd be mitigated in part by them being more adamant with the USSR about ensuring a liberal-democratic (perhaps even capitalistic!) Eastern Europe this time around? If they are smart Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria stay neutral and they might preserve their monarchies. I think it'd be hard to stay neutral (or liberal-democratic and maybe capitalistic) with the giant bear to the east constantly breathing down your neck and possibly working out plans to swallow you up once the opportunity arises. |
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Post by lordroel on May 2, 2019 20:41:27 GMT
If they are smart Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria stay neutral and they might preserve their monarchies. I think it'd be hard to stay neutral (or liberal-democratic and maybe capitalistic) with the giant bear to the east constantly breathing down your neck and possibly working out plans to swallow you up once the opportunity arises. Doubt the British, Canadians and French are going to like that. |
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Post by Zyobot on May 2, 2019 21:06:43 GMT
I think it'd be hard to stay neutral (or liberal-democratic and maybe capitalistic) with the giant bear to the east constantly breathing down your neck and possibly working out plans to swallow you up once the opportunity arises. Doubt the British, Canadians and French are going to like that. Indeed, they won't. Unfortunately, a coalition of Eastern European countries that picks no side will wind up suffering that even more than they would've otherwise been without an alliance with the West. |
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Post by stevep on May 3, 2019 11:40:19 GMT
Damn I actually replied to a comment on the Orbat thread where Lordroel raised this point. Would have been better doing it here but did that 1st. As I said there I suspect Stalin would be tempted to intervene 'on the allied side' to gain as much territory as he could but if he tries holding onto all of Poland and parts of eastern Germany its going to make war with the west markedly more likely. Especially given what Canada can tell the western powers about the current fragility of the Soviet empire but the problem it would pose later on. I think that Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria will and should stay neutral during the war with Germany but are likely to be drawn into a war with the Soviets or if it doesn't occur some NATO analog.
However one question is has the assorted 1940 border changes in eastern Europe of OTL still occurred as I can't remember if they were mentioned? Expect the Baltic states have been taken over by the Soviets but did they Hungary and Bulgaria take chunks out of Romania? If the latter occurred it makes for those three states having a significantly more rocky relationship and the western powers would have to decided what if anything they want to do about it. If Romania has lost Bessarabia to the Soviets its likely to be supportive of a war with the Soviets, as would the Finns, possibly even with Swedish support. However what would Hungary and Bulgaria do? Unlikely to join the Soviets but if they stay outside the western alliance they could feel the latter will support Romania on the borders issue. If they do join a western alliance in a war with the Soviets co-operation between the three powers. If the changing direction of the war has prevented those border changes, or just seen Russia gaining Bessarabia then its a lot simpler for the western powers.
Of course also the three powers would be expected to remove pro-fascist groups, such as the Iron Guard in Romania, if they want good relations with the west and its support. Which could be messy but I suspect with the fall of Nazi Germany and the success of the democracies there's a good chance of this.
Not to mention the larger fascist states, Japan, Italy and Spain. Doubt the allies will go to war with any of them without them doing something stupid, which is unlikely in Franco's case but their likely to be politically and economically somewhat isolated. Tokyo is going to be a problem and if there is a war with the Soviets it might even end up allying with the Soviets to clear its northern border while it goes for European colonies. Mussolini might see a coup attempt against him but even if it succeeded I don't know how much the regime would change without potentially prompting internal conflict.
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Post by redrobin65 on May 3, 2019 15:56:53 GMT
However one question is has the assorted 1940 border changes in eastern Europe of OTL still occurred as I can't remember if they were mentioned? Expect the Baltic states have been taken over by the Soviets but did they Hungary and Bulgaria take chunks out of Romania? The Baltics were annexed by the Soviets in May. The 2nd Vienna Award hasn't occurred here for a few reasons. Firstly, Bessebaria is still Romanian, with the USSR trying to focus on applying knowledge and lessons from the future. Second, the Romanians and Hungarians were pretty much browbeaten by Germany and Italy to negotiate for the territory. Besides, with a weak Germany that cannot maintain its influence in Central Europe and the Balkans, Hungary and Bulgaria have less incentive to try and get territory from Romania without a strong backer. They also are wary of potentially antagonizing the Allies. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 3, 2019 16:02:30 GMT
However one question is has the assorted 1940 border changes in eastern Europe of OTL still occurred as I can't remember if they were mentioned? Expect the Baltic states have been taken over by the Soviets but did they Hungary and Bulgaria take chunks out of Romania? The Baltics were annexed by the Soviets in May. The 2nd Vienna Award hasn't occurred here for a few reasons. Firstly, Bessebaria is still Romanian, with the USSR trying to focus on applying knowledge and lessons from the future. Second, the Romanians and Hungarians were pretty much browbeaten by Germany and Italy to negotiate for the territory. Besides, with a weak Germany that cannot maintain its influence in Central Europe and the Balkans, Hungary and Bulgaria have less incentive to try and get territory from Romania without a strong backer. They also are wary of potentially antagonizing the Allies.
Ok RR thanks for clarifying. That makes it a lot simpler for the Balkan powers as without territorial gains from Romania their relations with Bulgaria and Hungary will be better. Stalin hasn't tried to force Bessarabia is an interesting butterfly and I suspect he's missed the bus here - no pun intended.  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 3, 2019 16:25:37 GMT
However one question is has the assorted 1940 border changes in eastern Europe of OTL still occurred as I can't remember if they were mentioned? Expect the Baltic states have been taken over by the Soviets but did they Hungary and Bulgaria take chunks out of Romania? The Baltics were annexed by the Soviets in May. The 2nd Vienna Award hasn't occurred here for a few reasons. Firstly, Bessebaria is still Romanian, with the USSR trying to focus on applying knowledge and lessons from the future. Second, the Romanians and Hungarians were pretty much browbeaten by Germany and Italy to negotiate for the territory. Besides, with a weak Germany that cannot maintain its influence in Central Europe and the Balkans, Hungary and Bulgaria have less incentive to try and get territory from Romania without a strong backer. They also are wary of potentially antagonizing the Allies. In OTL on April 13th 1939 France and the United Kingdom had pledged to guarantee the independence of the Kingdom of Romania, is this still the case. |
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Post by redrobin65 on May 3, 2019 20:04:38 GMT
The Baltics were annexed by the Soviets in May. The 2nd Vienna Award hasn't occurred here for a few reasons. Firstly, Bessebaria is still Romanian, with the USSR trying to focus on applying knowledge and lessons from the future. Second, the Romanians and Hungarians were pretty much browbeaten by Germany and Italy to negotiate for the territory. Besides, with a weak Germany that cannot maintain its influence in Central Europe and the Balkans, Hungary and Bulgaria have less incentive to try and get territory from Romania without a strong backer. They also are wary of potentially antagonizing the Allies. In OTL on April 13th 1939 France and the United Kingdom had pledged to guarantee the independence of the Kingdom of Romania, is this still the case. It is, since France hasn't fallen. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 3, 2019 20:10:42 GMT
In OTL on April 13th 1939 France and the United Kingdom had pledged to guarantee the independence of the Kingdom of Romania, is this still the case. It is, since France hasn't fallen. So the country is pro-British and French and most likely also pro Canadian as i guess the 2018 Romanian ambassador had a good talk with the king to make him clear what would happen if Romania joins the wrong side. |
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Post by stevep on May 4, 2019 9:55:54 GMT
It is, since France hasn't fallen. So the country is pro-British and French and most likely also pro Canadian as i guess the 2018 Romanian ambassador had a good talk with the king to make him clear what would happen if Romania joins the wrong side.
Would expect so. Or if he didn't get rid of the Iron Guard and other fascists elements, although that would probably have to wait until Germany is clearly defeated.
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Post by redrobin65 on May 6, 2019 23:37:19 GMT
March 18th, 1941, Near Kassel, Germany
The Luftwaffe airbase was a hive of activity this evening. Aircraft sat fueled on the runway, ready to be launched, while technicians and mechanics scurried around. The Luftwaffe had taken heavy losses in the past eleven months, losing more than 4,700 aircraft in the Western campaigns, the Great Retreat, and over the winter.
The Germans had done their best to disperse most of their 900-remaining aircraft in multiple airbases, many away from the Rhine. While there was a substantial amount of aircraft stationed as close to the frontline as possible, the Luftwaffe feared losing huge amounts of machines to long range Allied artillery (which has destroyed quite a few already). It was hoped that the Luftwaffe would be able to avoid most of the initial airstrikes and husband its aircraft for interception missions and support of troops on the ground.
This hope was very unrealistic. The Germans were vastly outnumbered and outgunned by the various Allied air forces. The Allies had approximately 7,000 aircraft, many of which were bomber and ground-attack models. In addition, the primary German fighter plane, the Bf109, was outclassed by newer Allied fighters like the Dewontine D.21 and the Hawker Tempest. That didn’t even begin to take into account the Hornets, Freedom Fighters, and Alpha Jets that the Canadians operated. Few bombers were left. The Germans were also short on fuel, putting a handicap on any potential operations.
Though some in the German high command refused to acknowledge it, the Luftwaffe was doomed.
Those Luftwaffe personnel at the airfield were not going to enjoy a peaceful evening. The sound of jets caused technicians to dive for the nearest cover that they could find. Fighters began to taxi and take off, hoping to get away from the strike and maybe intercept it. The latter had no chance of happening.
A pair of CF-5s swooped down and fired dozens of CRV7 rockets at the airfield. Parked fighters blew up, and buildings were set aflame. More Freedom Fighters dropped Paveway guided bombs, pulverizing hangars, barracks, and the command tower. A Bf109 attempted to shoot down one of the RCAF planes, but was blown out of the sky by a Sidewinder. The Kassel airfield was left a burning wreck.
This was repeated at Luftwaffe bases all over Germany, and a few airfields in Poland and Czechoslovakia as well. The German dispersal of aircraft hadn’t mattered very much in the face of satellite and fast jet reconnaissance. Nearly a thousand Allied bombers and ground-attack aircraft pummeled German airbases throughout the evening and night of the 18th and into the early hours of the 19th. Aerial engagements took place, and plenty of barely trained German rookies were sent to fight veteran Allied pilots.
When the sun rose on March 19th, the Luftwaffe was broken. Out of approximately 900 aircraft, 634 were destroyed or damaged beyond repair. German troops facing the Allied attack would not be blessed with friendly air cover. In contrast to the heavy German losses, 32 Allied aircraft were destroyed.
A CF-5 firing rockets at an unseen target.
March 19th, 1941, Monheim-am-Rhein, Germany
The company from the German 293rd Infantry Division was hugging the ground as much as possible. The artillery and aircraft had been pounding their concrete bunker for hours on end. A few men were rocking back-and-forth, praying for the attacks to stop.
Like the rest of the 293rd, the company in the bunker had been formed from volunteers who had been trained in late 1940. The “training” could barely be called such, as ammunition was short in supply. Suffering through periodic artillery barrages and air attacks, the company had been deployed to Monheim in February. They barely had time to complete the fortifications in the town before the Allied attack.
Despite all of this, the company would still do what they could to fight back against their opposition.
March 19th, 1941, Wuppertal, Germany
General Otto-Wilhelm Forster grabbed the ringing field telephone.
“Hello?”
“Code Red, code rezzzzzzzzzzzzz…. attack near our….”
“Hello? I can’t hear you!”
“Sir, we…. I…. zzzzzzzzzz.” The line went dead.
The commander of the German VI Corps barely had time to process what had happened before he and his entire staff were killed when a Paveway slammed into their command post.
March 19th, 1941, Over Denmark
Despite all of their boasting over production of transport aircraft and helicopters, the Royal Canadian Air Force did not have the capability to drop an entire division’s worth of airmobile forces. Because of this, the RCAF aircraft were making multiple trips from their staging areas in Norway to the drop zones over Denmark. Combined with amphibious landings on Jutland and Zealand, the Allied Northern Expeditionary Force intended to unravel the German defensive plans with Operation LIGHTNING.
Canadian paratroopers began to leap out of their transports, descending towards their objectives. Helicopters deposited airmobile forces all over the peninsula, and many would link up with the Danish Resistance.
March 19th, 1941, Near Niederkassel, Germany
The Australian troops ducked as bullets bounced off of their armoured barge. Artillery and airstrikes had done their best to supress the defenders, but it was expected that some would still be alive. As the ramp lowered, the platoon charged forwards. Operation CORNERSTONE had begun.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 7, 2019 3:15:53 GMT
March 18th, 1941, Near Kassel, Germany
The Luftwaffe airbase was a hive of activity this evening. Aircraft sat fueled on the runway, ready to be launched, while technicians and mechanics scurried around. The Luftwaffe had taken heavy losses in the past eleven months, losing more than 4,700 aircraft in the Western campaigns, the Great Retreat, and over the winter.
The Germans had done their best to disperse most of their 900-remaining aircraft in multiple airbases, many away from the Rhine. While there was a substantial amount of aircraft stationed as close to the frontline as possible, the Luftwaffe feared losing huge amounts of machines to long range Allied artillery (which has destroyed quite a few already). It was hoped that the Luftwaffe would be able to avoid most of the initial airstrikes and husband its aircraft for interception missions and support of troops on the ground.
This hope was very unrealistic. The Germans were vastly outnumbered and outgunned by the various Allied air forces. The Allies had approximately 7,000 aircraft, many of which were bomber and ground-attack models. In addition, the primary German fighter plane, the Bf109, was outclassed by newer Allied fighters like the Dewontine D.21 and the Hawker Tempest. That didn’t even begin to take into account the Hornets, Freedom Fighters, and Alpha Jets that the Canadians operated. Few bombers were left. The Germans were also short on fuel, putting a handicap on any potential operations.
Though some in the German high command refused to acknowledge it, the Luftwaffe was doomed.
Those Luftwaffe personnel at the airfield were not going to enjoy a peaceful evening. The sound of jets caused technicians to dive for the nearest cover that they could find. Fighters began to taxi and take off, hoping to get away from the strike and maybe intercept it. The latter had no chance of happening.
A pair of CF-5s swooped down and fired dozens of CRV7 rockets at the airfield. Parked fighters blew up, and buildings were set aflame. More Freedom Fighters dropped Paveway guided bombs, pulverizing hangars, barracks, and the command tower. A Bf109 attempted to shoot down one of the RCAF planes, but was blown out of the sky by a Sidewinder. The Kassel airfield was left a burning wreck.
This was repeated at Luftwaffe bases all over Germany, and a few airfields in Poland and Czechoslovakia as well. The German dispersal of aircraft hadn’t mattered very much in the face of satellite and fast jet reconnaissance. Nearly a thousand Allied bombers and ground-attack aircraft pummeled German airbases throughout the evening and night of the 18th and into the early hours of the 19th. Aerial engagements took place, and plenty of barely trained German rookies were sent to fight veteran Allied pilots.
When the sun rose on March 19th, the Luftwaffe was broken. Out of approximately 900 aircraft, 634 were destroyed or damaged beyond repair. German troops facing the Allied attack would not be blessed with friendly air cover. In contrast to the heavy German losses, 32 Allied aircraft were destroyed.
View Attachment
A CF-5 firing rockets at an unseen target.
March 19th, 1941, Monheim-am-Rhein, Germany
The company from the German 293rd Infantry Division was hugging the ground as much as possible. The artillery and aircraft had been pounding their concrete bunker for hours on end. A few men were rocking back-and-forth, praying for the attacks to stop.
Like the rest of the 293rd, the company in the bunker had been formed from volunteers who had been trained in late 1940. The “training” could barely be called such, as ammunition was short in supply. Suffering through periodic artillery barrages and air attacks, the company had been deployed to Monheim in February. They barely had time to complete the fortifications in the town before the Allied attack.
Despite all of this, the company would still do what they could to fight back against their opposition.
March 19th, 1941, Wuppertal, Germany
General Otto-Wilhelm Forster grabbed the ringing field telephone.
“Hello?”
“Code Red, code rezzzzzzzzzzzzz…. attack near our….”
“Hello? I can’t hear you!”
“Sir, we…. I…. zzzzzzzzzz.” The line went dead.
The commander of the German VI Corps barely had time to process what had happened before he and his entire staff were killed when a Paveway slammed into their command post.
March 19th, 1941, Over Denmark
Despite all of their boasting over production of transport aircraft and helicopters, the Royal Canadian Air Force did not have the capability to drop an entire division’s worth of airmobile forces. Because of this, the RCAF aircraft were making multiple trips from their staging areas in Norway to the drop zones over Denmark. Combined with amphibious landings on Jutland and Zealand, the Allied Northern Expeditionary Force intended to unravel the German defensive plans with Operation LIGHTNING.
Canadian paratroopers began to leap out of their transports, descending towards their objectives. Helicopters deposited airmobile forces all over the peninsula, and many would link up with the Danish Resistance.
March 19th, 1941, Near Niederkassel, Germany
The Australian troops ducked as bullets bounced off of their armoured barge. Artillery and airstrikes had done their best to supress the defenders, but it was expected that some would still be alive. As the ramp lowered, the platoon charged forwards. Operation CORNERSTONE had begun. Another good update redrobin65. This is the end for the Luftwaffe and most likely for a certain Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring (if he was ever promoted like in OTL). |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 7, 2019 11:17:49 GMT
Redrobin65 Good update and it sounds like the end is coming, probably fairly soon. Between the sheer firepower, the turning move by invading Denmark and the greater intel available to the allies there will only be one winner, although a lot of the Germans will no doubt fight hard. Possibly you could see a decisive allied blitzkrieg here as most of the German forces are not just poorly trained and equipped but dependent on feet and horses for movement - not to mention any attempt at movement, especially by motorised units, is likely to be detected and hammered hard. With much better allied communications as well they should be able to do what the Germans did in 40 and 41 OTL, getting well inside their opponents decision times. As such breakthroughs and the crippling of HQs could leave a lot of units, dug into defensive positions, bypassed and screened until they can either be pounded to pieces or persuaded to surrender?
One quibble. I can see a lot of intel on German positions being obtained by code breaking, high performance recon flights, drone activity and the like but does Canada actually have access to satellites? That would require that Canada 2018 has such satellites in place and those were brought along and are still active or that its been able to construct such satellites and get them launched into suitable orbits, which would take a hell of a lot.
Anyway great update.
Steve
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Post by redrobin65 on May 7, 2019 11:59:10 GMT
The Canadian Spece Agency (CSA) has about 13 sattelites, but only two are dedicated observation platforms. Both are pretty much assinged to observing German positions.
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