stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 21, 2018 18:02:29 GMT
Very likely there will be some group like that. Not just in the old south I would fear and probably another resurgence of traditional groups such as the KKK. How much damage they would do I don't know. You might even seen an earlier ending of formal segregation and legal racism but things could also be a lot bloodier as well. Both because its earlier and also seen by some as an outside source and because a lot more than just racial discrimination would be involved. Sexual equality, abortion, legal homosexuality, environmental rules etc. There are a hell of a lot of things a broad range of conservatives will find objectionable. If enough of a coalition is formed then it could win, at least for a while and you might even find a form of Iron Curtain between Canada and the US. Ditto in terms of reactions in much of Europe although in some cases this might be moderated by reaction against the excesses of the Nazis and the fact the Canadians have do so much to win the war. Plus many will realise the material and economic advantages of working with Canada and getting the best access to its technology and knowledge.
Your predictions are interesting. Although, I wonder if downtime authorities and moral guardians might be hesitant to wholeheartedly accept uptime technology--such as internet and computers--as it is due to the more...adult materials that they make casually and instantaneously accessible to the average user. If anything, I think they'd want it to be significantly more controlled than IOTL.
That will be a big issue for all the major downtime states. If they try and restrict it they face falling behind not just Canada but also other down-time states that are more accepting of Canadian technologies. On the other hand accepting them is going to give a lot of information [and possibly power] to internal groups who have reasons to feel excluded and to cause anger with their own conservatives.
Of course there is likely to be some countries that Canada is likely to try and prevent getting access to their technology and information. Most noticeably Soviet Russia and Imperial Japan - presuming the latter doesn't start a wider war in the Far East, plus of course Nazi Germany and its friends while this war is ongoing.
Plus some things are likely to be dependent on satellites that I think Canada can't launch in the near term and electronic infrastructure which would delay setting up mobile phone and internet facilities in many places as well as the inabilities of many down-timers to make use of them fully. In fact I rather doubt that Canada can produce much of the chips and other components that it uses so it could itself see a period of technological stutter at least before it can produce replacements for a lot of what it has now.
I think, especially going by other TLs I've read which touch on this issue it will seek to get as many back as it can but keep them at least partially segregated from the bulk of their population because of the fear of the effects they will have.
That would be a big issue. For instance for military personnel say any up-time US solider who was black, female or gay could well find themselves having limited options in 1940 US. Also all of them are going to have to get used to a significant drop in living standards. On the other hand, if their willing the US and some other nations might be able to find up-timers who for various reasons [fiscal, political, hope of fame and power] will be willing to move to a down-time nation and give them the benefit of their knowledge. Of course some of that knowledge may be somewhat dubious in actual value. 
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 21, 2018 18:59:58 GMT
stevepGood points. I'm excited to see where redrobin65 goes with overseas 2018 professionals and how downtimer nations approach this concern. I'm not sure what they can do to force uptimers to come back and work for their benefit, and this will be an especially fun debacle for future military personnel and the past versions of the countries they serve. In the US's case, I wonder what FDR & Company might do to get uptimer American servicemen (and women!) on their side. I sure wouldn't want to be in their position, with weighing the consequences of staying in friendly, tech-laden, socio-culturally similar Canada or remaining loyal to a 70-years-behind a country that's the opposite of what they enlisted to defend--let alone live in. A number of downtimer Americans will want to inflict punitive measures upon "disloyal" US troops, I'm sure, and I doubt that such a move bodes well for them.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 21, 2018 22:09:24 GMT
stevep Good points. I'm excited to see where redrobin65 goes with overseas 2018 professionals and how downtimer nations approach this concern. I'm not sure what they can do to force uptimers to come back and work for their benefit, and this will be an especially fun debacle for future military personnel and the past versions of the countries they serve. In the US's case, I wonder what FDR & Company might do to get uptimer American servicemen (and women!) on their side. I sure wouldn't want to be in their position, with weighing the consequences of staying in friendly, tech-laden, socio-culturally similar Canada or remaining loyal to a 70-years-behind a country that's the opposite of what they enlisted to defend--let alone live in. A number of downtimer Americans will want to inflict punitive measures upon "disloyal" US troops, I'm sure, and I doubt that such a move bodes well for them.
I doubt they would be able to 'force' any up-timers to 'return' as if nothing else I suspect Canada would offer asylum to anybody who was faced with such a threat.
In terms of the 2nd point a down-time country could appear to patriotism, possibly offering help for their down-time ancestors as well or pointing out how much say a doctor from 2018 could help health care in 1940. Alternatively they can try money or offer political influence of some kind. For instance a black serviceman probably wouldn't want to 'return' even to somewhere like 1940 New York but the government might offer them the chance to speed reform on racial matters. Of course how much the government can and actually will do when they get the serviceman back in the US is another matter and it would depend on how much their willing to trust - in the US case Roosevelt. Ditto for any other people from other areas. I could see someone from the former Soviet Union seeking to demand up-timers from one of its successor state return as their duty, possibly with threats to their family and community.
A few years back on AH there was a good TL like this where 2012 Irish Republic was taken back to 1912 and a lot of problems with the US government over its attempts to demand American citizens from 2012, especially some service personnel passing through when the ISOT occurred be returned to the US along with assorted computing factors owned by up-time American firms. Basically they made jack-asses of themselves about it and alienated both the bulk of the up-timers and the Irish government. In fact, after some initial clashes with Britain because of the sudden appearance of an independent Irish state, the republics main problems were with the US and the Vatican. At least at the point the story was when I left the site. It went into this sort of issue in some detail and was interesting as to some of the issues that came up.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 22, 2018 0:04:40 GMT
stevepOnce again, more good points that you brought up. Would you happen to remember the name of the 2012 ISOT TL? Because now I'm interested in checking it out myself.
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Post by redrobin65 on Oct 22, 2018 0:21:22 GMT
June 8th, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
“We think that it can definitely happen again, Prime Minister. Probably in Quebec or Alberta, I think.”
Trudeau stared at the map. “Hmmm. None of us is too surprised by what happened last night. I mean, conceding before the general election doesn’t seem like the best strategy to me.”
“Yes, sir. Which is why we have to make sure that words back our actions. All those infrastructure projects? Expanding the military? Establishing ties with foreign powers? In 1941, you’ll be able to say that you did those. What can the opposition say? Bernier’s left the Conservatives, we think that another split is coming up. The NDP is flagging right now. We need to take advantage of this.”
“True. And with the offensive coming up in France, we’ll be able to say that we’re actively smashing the Germans.”
“Exactly. I just hope that there won’t be any disasters for us.”
June 19th, Cheveuges, France
“It’s good that your division (3rd Mechanized) has arrived, but we need to wait a few more weeks before we’re ready to go. We don’t have enough fuel for our trucks, and we still don’t have enough ammo for everyone. Regardless, I want everyone to be on high alert. You all know that the Germans are still trying…idiotic, right?
When we do attack, I want the 4th Division on the right, the 1st in the middle, and the 2nd on the left. 3rd will be held back initially, we don’t want to copy the Germans in how well they’ve clogged the roads. Air support will be available. The Luftwaffe hasn’t made a big effort for a while; they’re probably up to something. Satellite intel shows that the German Ninth Army will be our main opponent in this attack. Just so you know, the Ninth Army is an OKH Reserve formation that has no armour whatsoever and relies on horses.
We’re going to be getting some experimental equipment in a few weeks. The LAV-III/76, which is basically a new Cougar. Some of our knockoff AS-90s which should help with fire support. Overall, we and the French will definitely be able to push the Germans out of France, through the Ardennes, and into Belgium and Luxembourg. Now, about the ATGM situation in particular…”
.............................................
How does he keep doing it!?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 22, 2018 8:22:21 GMT
stevep Once again, more good points that you brought up. Would you happen to remember the name of the 2012 ISOT TL? Because now I'm interested in checking it out myself.
Sorry had a quick look but seems like their had a reorganisation and can't see any ASB stories at all. Tried some searching but couldn't find it. If I recall correctly the dates were 2012 to 1912, although possibly it was a year earlier. Was in time to avoid the Titania disaster and also rescue Scott's Antarctic expedition, although if I recall correctly they lost some people doing so when a helicopter crashed. Got to go to work shortly but may try checking again a bit later.
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Post by redrobin65 on Nov 22, 2018 3:05:48 GMT
The Home Front
Seven months after the Shift, the situation in Canada itself could be described as tricky. Unemployment, which had peaked at a stunning 11%, was slowly recovering, but was not back down to where it was in February of 2018, which was 5.5 percent. The main issue was relevance. Who needed a cloud solution in 1940? Honda Civics and Ford Edges were no longer being shipped to the United States in large numbers, and few foreign countries could dream of affording a fleet of Bombardier C-Series airliners.
Consequently, certain sections of the Canadian economy barely existed anymore. Most of the big auto plants in Southern Ontario had stopped making cars. The Ford and GM factories were being converted to make MSWVs, LAV-IIIs and TAPVs, but retooling a factory and retraining its workforce was not an easy task, not by a long shot. The Chrysler, Toyota and Honda factories were not being converted due to chaos at the management level.
Bombardier, famous for airliners and a complete inability to deliver streetcars on time, had suffered considerably, even though their Mirabel factory had been converted to produce the Q400 and CF-5. For one, the C-Series was no longer viable to mass produce. Most had been made in the US to get around tariffs anyway, but not many airlines could afford it.
Unlike their counterparts in the automotive and aviation sectors, the natural resource industries were doing relatively well. Had they recovered to pre-shift levels? No, but they were close in employment and productivity. Oil was being exported to the United States (despite the race relations in that country) along with others such as wood, aluminium, and plastic. The Americans paid higher prices than the British or French (‘wartime discount’), but Canada was desperate for money. After all, the country was almost 1.4 trillion dollars in debt. That was a slightly misleading figure, however. In 2018, around 30% of Canada’s debt was foreign. With all of those uptime countries gone, the amount was slightly lower. Still, all of that debt was not going to pay for itself.
By now, most Canadians had accepted the reality of the Shift. That did not mean that all was well, though. Unemployment was still high, with many industries made irrelevant or forced to close due to either lack of investments, foreign shipments, or sales. The electronics industry, in particular, was stricken. No more iPhone Xs were arriving at airports; no more Sony A7RIIs being unloaded in ports. Overnight, a considerable sector was effectively decimated. People were not happy. The phones, laptops and cameras flew off the shelves even as warehouses emptied in weeks. The used market was on fire, as savvy buyers and desperate scavengers scrambled to find what they wanted. This industry would not fully recover for decades.
The automotive industry was similarly affected. While cars were not flying off lots, there was a brief spike in sales before a sharp dip was recorded due to many people reviewing their finances. A brand-new car didn’t look like a good investment nowadays when prices skyrocketed. Fruits and spices that had disappeared from grocery store shelves in a few days after the Shift were starting to trickle back in. Things like coffee, bananas and the like.
The overwhelming majority of Canadians supported the war. Speeches and appearances WW2 veterans, satellite images from the hell that was German-occupied Poland, and testimonies from Canadian journalists in France and Belgium showed the importance of defeating the Nazis. Military equipment was being made as fast as possible. There was far-right agitation, but those rallies usually attracted opposition from a myriad of different groups.
Whether they were civilians or not, most Canadians were not enthusiastic about the countries that they now had to share the world with. The United States was horrifically racist, with civil rights for people of colour near-nonexistent. Britain and France stood astride Africa and Asia, with hundreds of millions of people having no representation while being exploited for manpower and resources. The Soviet Union under Comrade Stalin had committed all kinds of atrocities to its people as well as those from other countries like Poland, Finland, and the Baltic States, which had been occupied in May, a month earlier than OTL. Central, eastern and southern Europe was covered with authoritarian countries. Japan was actively committing genocide in China (Canadian diplomatic approaches to the Empire had gone back and forth). The government recognized that they needed friends, but it seemed like a difficult task in the long run.
Politics was fascinating. Question Period in the House of Commons was louder than ever, with the Trudeau Liberals facing attacks from the Conservatives, NDP, and even the Bloc Quebecois. The Feds were not showing great polling numbers, but they could have been doing worse. Travelling through time had not given Andrew Scheer the charisma or vision needed to rally the Conservatives behind him. Maxime Bernier, a Conservative MP who had lost the 2017 leadership race by 1%, had left the party in late May over disagreements with Scheer, announced that he was creating a new political party, and was going to hold a press conference on June 20th. Many pundits suspected that the name of Bernier’s party would be announced.
Under Jagmeet Singh, the NDP floundered. Interestingly, they could have taken advantage of the millions of unemployed people to get a message out, but they did not. Singh, who did not have a seat in the House of Commons, was unable to rally the NDP with a strong message, consequently suffering in the polls.
Provincial politics was significantly different than the federal scene, with provincial Liberals trending downwards in the polls. The Ontario Liberal Party had been nearly destroyed on the June 6th Provincial Election, left with four seats. The Conservatives in other provinces had upswings that ranged from modest to significant.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 22, 2018 3:45:28 GMT
The Home Front
Seven months after the Shift, the situation in Canada itself could be described as tricky. Unemployment, which had peaked at a stunning 11%, was slowly recovering, but was not back down to where it was in February of 2018, which was 5.5 percent. The main issue was relevance. Who needed a cloud solution in 1940? Honda Civics and Ford Edges were no longer being shipped to the United States in large numbers, and few foreign countries could dream of affording a fleet of Bombardier C-Series airliners.
Consequently, certain sections of the Canadian economy barely existed anymore. Most of the big auto plants in Southern Ontario had stopped making cars. The Ford and GM factories were being converted to make MSWVs, LAV-IIIs and TAPVs, but retooling a factory and retraining its workforce was not an easy task, not by a long shot. The Chrysler, Toyota and Honda factories were not being converted due to chaos at the management level.
Bombardier, famous for airliners and a complete inability to deliver streetcars on time, had suffered considerably, even though their Mirabel factory had been converted to produce the Q400 and CF-5. For one, the C-Series was no longer viable to mass produce. Most had been made in the US to get around tariffs anyway, but not many airlines could afford it.
Unlike their counterparts in the automotive and aviation sectors, the natural resource industries were doing relatively well. Had they recovered to pre-shift levels? No, but they were close in employment and productivity. Oil was being exported to the United States (despite the race relations in that country) along with others such as wood, aluminium, and plastic. The Americans paid higher prices than the British or French (‘wartime discount’), but Canada was desperate for money. After all, the country was almost 1.4 trillion dollars in debt. That was a slightly misleading figure, however. In 2018, around 30% of Canada’s debt was foreign. With all of those uptime countries gone, the amount was slightly lower. Still, all of that debt was not going to pay for itself.
By now, most Canadians had accepted the reality of the Shift. That did not mean that all was well, though. Unemployment was still high, with many industries made irrelevant or forced to close due to either lack of investments, foreign shipments, or sales. The electronics industry, in particular, was stricken. No more iPhone Xs were arriving at airports; no more Sony A7RIIs being unloaded in ports. Overnight, a considerable sector was effectively decimated. People were not happy. The phones, laptops and cameras flew off the shelves even as warehouses emptied in weeks. The used market was on fire, as savvy buyers and desperate scavengers scrambled to find what they wanted. This industry would not fully recover for decades.
The automotive industry was similarly affected. While cars were not flying off lots, there was a brief spike in sales before a sharp dip was recorded due to many people reviewing their finances. A brand-new car didn’t look like a good investment nowadays when prices skyrocketed. Fruits and spices that had disappeared from grocery store shelves in a few days after the Shift were starting to trickle back in. Things like coffee, bananas and the like.
The overwhelming majority of Canadians supported the war. Speeches and appearances WW2 veterans, satellite images from the hell that was German-occupied Poland, and testimonies from Canadian journalists in France and Belgium showed the importance of defeating the Nazis. Military equipment was being made as fast as possible. There was far-right agitation, but those rallies usually attracted opposition from a myriad of different groups.
Whether they were civilians or not, most Canadians were not enthusiastic about the countries that they now had to share the world with. The United States was horrifically racist, with civil rights for people of colour near-nonexistent. Britain and France stood astride Africa and Asia, with hundreds of millions of people having no representation while being exploited for manpower and resources. The Soviet Union under Comrade Stalin had committed all kinds of atrocities to its people as well as those from other countries like Poland, Finland, and the Baltic States, which had been occupied in May, a month earlier than OTL. Central, eastern and southern Europe was covered with authoritarian countries. Japan was actively committing genocide in China (Canadian diplomatic approaches to the Empire had gone back and forth). The government recognized that they needed friends, but it seemed like a difficult task in the long run.
Politics was fascinating. Question Period in the House of Commons was louder than ever, with the Trudeau Liberals facing attacks from the Conservatives, NDP, and even the Bloc Quebecois. The Feds were not showing great polling numbers, but they could have been doing worse. Travelling through time had not given Andrew Scheer the charisma or vision needed to rally the Conservatives behind him. Maxime Bernier, a Conservative MP who had lost the 2017 leadership race by 1%, had left the party in late May over disagreements with Scheer, announced that he was creating a new political party, and was going to hold a press conference on June 20th. Many pundits suspected that the name of Bernier’s party would be announced.
Under Jagmeet Singh, the NDP floundered. Interestingly, they could have taken advantage of the millions of unemployed people to get a message out, but they did not. Singh, who did not have a seat in the House of Commons, was unable to rally the NDP with a strong message, consequently suffering in the polls.
Provincial politics was significantly different than the federal scene, with provincial Liberals trending downwards in the polls. The Ontario Liberal Party had been nearly destroyed on the June 6th Provincial Election, left with four seats. The Conservatives in other provinces had upswings that ranged from modest to significant. Nice to see a update redrobin65 |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 22, 2018 9:21:15 GMT
The Home Front
Seven months after the Shift, the situation in Canada itself could be described as tricky. Unemployment, which had peaked at a stunning 11%, was slowly recovering, but was not back down to where it was in February of 2018, which was 5.5 percent. The main issue was relevance. Who needed a cloud solution in 1940? Honda Civics and Ford Edges were no longer being shipped to the United States in large numbers, and few foreign countries could dream of affording a fleet of Bombardier C-Series airliners.
Consequently, certain sections of the Canadian economy barely existed anymore. Most of the big auto plants in Southern Ontario had stopped making cars. The Ford and GM factories were being converted to make MSWVs, LAV-IIIs and TAPVs, but retooling a factory and retraining its workforce was not an easy task, not by a long shot. The Chrysler, Toyota and Honda factories were not being converted due to chaos at the management level.
Bombardier, famous for airliners and a complete inability to deliver streetcars on time, had suffered considerably, even though their Mirabel factory had been converted to produce the Q400 and CF-5. For one, the C-Series was no longer viable to mass produce. Most had been made in the US to get around tariffs anyway, but not many airlines could afford it.
Unlike their counterparts in the automotive and aviation sectors, the natural resource industries were doing relatively well. Had they recovered to pre-shift levels? No, but they were close in employment and productivity. Oil was being exported to the United States (despite the race relations in that country) along with others such as wood, aluminium, and plastic. The Americans paid higher prices than the British or French (‘wartime discount’), but Canada was desperate for money. After all, the country was almost 1.4 trillion dollars in debt. That was a slightly misleading figure, however. In 2018, around 30% of Canada’s debt was foreign. With all of those uptime countries gone, the amount was slightly lower. Still, all of that debt was not going to pay for itself.
By now, most Canadians had accepted the reality of the Shift. That did not mean that all was well, though. Unemployment was still high, with many industries made irrelevant or forced to close due to either lack of investments, foreign shipments, or sales. The electronics industry, in particular, was stricken. No more iPhone Xs were arriving at airports; no more Sony A7RIIs being unloaded in ports. Overnight, a considerable sector was effectively decimated. People were not happy. The phones, laptops and cameras flew off the shelves even as warehouses emptied in weeks. The used market was on fire, as savvy buyers and desperate scavengers scrambled to find what they wanted. This industry would not fully recover for decades.
The automotive industry was similarly affected. While cars were not flying off lots, there was a brief spike in sales before a sharp dip was recorded due to many people reviewing their finances. A brand-new car didn’t look like a good investment nowadays when prices skyrocketed. Fruits and spices that had disappeared from grocery store shelves in a few days after the Shift were starting to trickle back in. Things like coffee, bananas and the like.
The overwhelming majority of Canadians supported the war. Speeches and appearances WW2 veterans, satellite images from the hell that was German-occupied Poland, and testimonies from Canadian journalists in France and Belgium showed the importance of defeating the Nazis. Military equipment was being made as fast as possible. There was far-right agitation, but those rallies usually attracted opposition from a myriad of different groups.
Whether they were civilians or not, most Canadians were not enthusiastic about the countries that they now had to share the world with. The United States was horrifically racist, with civil rights for people of colour near-nonexistent. Britain and France stood astride Africa and Asia, with hundreds of millions of people having no representation while being exploited for manpower and resources. The Soviet Union under Comrade Stalin had committed all kinds of atrocities to its people as well as those from other countries like Poland, Finland, and the Baltic States, which had been occupied in May, a month earlier than OTL. Central, eastern and southern Europe was covered with authoritarian countries. Japan was actively committing genocide in China (Canadian diplomatic approaches to the Empire had gone back and forth). The government recognized that they needed friends, but it seemed like a difficult task in the long run.
Politics was fascinating. Question Period in the House of Commons was louder than ever, with the Trudeau Liberals facing attacks from the Conservatives, NDP, and even the Bloc Quebecois. The Feds were not showing great polling numbers, but they could have been doing worse. Travelling through time had not given Andrew Scheer the charisma or vision needed to rally the Conservatives behind him. Maxime Bernier, a Conservative MP who had lost the 2017 leadership race by 1%, had left the party in late May over disagreements with Scheer, announced that he was creating a new political party, and was going to hold a press conference on June 20th. Many pundits suspected that the name of Bernier’s party would be announced.
Under Jagmeet Singh, the NDP floundered. Interestingly, they could have taken advantage of the millions of unemployed people to get a message out, but they did not. Singh, who did not have a seat in the House of Commons, was unable to rally the NDP with a strong message, consequently suffering in the polls.
Provincial politics was significantly different than the federal scene, with provincial Liberals trending downwards in the polls. The Ontario Liberal Party had been nearly destroyed on the June 6th Provincial Election, left with four seats. The Conservatives in other provinces had upswings that ranged from modest to significant. Nice to see a update redrobin65
Agree, good to see something more on this TL. Also highlights the sort of problem a ISOT would cause socially and economically. As well as highlighting the chance in social values in that even the most liberal and 'democratic' powers from 1940 are on a number of levels repulsive to the 2018 Canadians.
A bit surprised that Canada is able to sell oil to the US as the latter has such a massive share of world production at the time but despite its racism its one of the more tolerable nations of the time and they do need to trade with somebody.
One thing they might think of. I can't remember exactly when but OTL there was some talk of Canada taking over the British Caribbean possessions and I wonder if they might consider it now? It would mean an extra burden but would enable them to try and upgrade those colonies to 'modern' values, as well as probably the problems that would be faced in bring full self-government let alone independence without a fair run-in period. Also have they mentioned Indian independence yet? Which would be unpopular with the more reactionary Tories [cough] Churchill [cough] especially and also worry a fair number of people in India and Britain given how bloody it became.
Had forgotten but had another look on AH for that Ireland 2012 to 1912 ISOT TL but can't see it at all, even looking through anything with Ireland in the title? Sorry.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Dec 10, 2018 1:25:28 GMT
Out of curiosity, redrobin65 , have the downtimers been exposed to any uptimer music and able to react to it? I don't think we've covered that yet--or much about how they'd receive 21st Century media, period.
Nonetheless, I think it'd be good to insert some instances of them getting wind of it. If 1950s-era older people branded that era's rock & roll as "the Devil's music" (which, let's be honest, is lite compared to what we have nowadays), imagine how triggered their 1930s/40s counterparts will be at rap, hip-hop, etcetera ad infinitum.
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Post by redrobin65 on Dec 14, 2018 10:29:03 GMT
Out of curiosity, redrobin65 , have the downtimers been exposed to any uptimer music and able to react to it? I don't think we've covered that yet--or much about how they'd receive 21st Century media, period. I'll cover that soon. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Dec 14, 2018 14:39:08 GMT
Out of curiosity, redrobin65 , have the downtimers been exposed to any uptimer music and able to react to it? I don't think we've covered that yet--or much about how they'd receive 21st Century media, period. I'll cover that soon. Sounds good, looking forward to it  . Do we know much about the "moral guardian" crowd that was around in the '40s? I think that bringing some information and sources to the table would help us speculate on their reactions to today's full-color, quality-sound entertainment that's oft-laden with mature themes, and the pervasiveness of social media in which tomorrow's youth have unprecedented popular influence. I also see a number of them screeching about "the uptimer heathens' obsession with screens!", "slavish dependence on new-fangled gadgetry", "soulless pursuit of technological change for its own sake", etcetera ad infinitum. Of course, much of that rhetoric has been employed in the face of disruptive breakthroughs practically forever, and even during their own youth-hoods to boot. Speaking of that, do you plan to write about what FDR & Company make of Canadian advancements? They're older, but they've surely been in politics long enough to know that at least from a geopolitical standpoint, technological furtherance is an invaluable asset even if they privately disapprove of its other implications; that's one reason why politicians in general (at least, more recent ones) emphasize innovation so much, I bet. Anyway, just a few ideas for your consideration. Hopefully, other people will chime in after this small spiel of mine. |
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Post by redrobin65 on Jan 2, 2019 3:28:25 GMT
June 29th, France
Operation SICKLE had been postponed over and over again for weeks. Despite their technology, I Canadian Corps still had issues with fuel and ammunition. They burned through the latter in an alarmingly short amount of time when fighting. Nonetheless, I Corps was now ready. One division had been taken off the order of battle, but the 1st, 2nd and 4th divisions, 38,000 in all, were ready and willing to attack.
The German forces on the opposite side of the Meuse were drawn from the OKH reserve, in this case from the Ninth Army. There were no Panzer divisions or motorized infantry, just line infantry. The 81st and 25th Infantry Divisions (XVIII Corps) were on the Meuse opposite the Canadians while other formations were held back for counterattacks. The Ninth Army had been weakened due to the removal of several divisions which ended up being sent to Belgium.
The Canadians had 105mm and 155mm guns, along with MLRS systems from BATUS, who did not have anything near the amount of crew required for all of their equipment. Even though new guns had been made in factories (M109s taken from storage, and AS-90s from BATUS), the amount of artillery that they had was tiny in comparison to the French, British, German, and Soviet armies. They made up for the low numbers of artillery with modern, accurate air support.
At 6:45 AM, the guns opened fire, hitting German positions along the Meuse. Aircraft pummeled supply lines and communication centres, further weakening the Germans. Troops accompanied by engineers crossed under the cover of artillery. Smoke screens were used to conceal the crossings. German units on the right bank of the Meuse were overwhelmed by artillery, airstrikes, and direct Canadian attacks on their positions.
Sedan was secured by a battalion from 10CMBG, but their advance was slow due to local German forces putting up stiff resistance. Nevertheless, the crossing was a success. Armoured vehicles rolled across pontoon bridges to reinforce the troops on the right bank. I Canadian Corps had established a beachhead that was 25 km wide and 2 kilometres deep by 9:30 AM.
Local German counterattacks occurred in several areas. In the south, 5CMBG was attacked by the 189th Infantry Regiment from the German 81st Infantry Division. Predictably, the attack was stopped with heavy casualties, causing the remnants of the regiment to retreat. Seeing an opportunity, the commander of 5CMBG ordered his mechanized and light armoured units forward. Led by the 12th Armoured Regiment, the brigade smashed through and destroyed the 189th Regiment. This success was followed by another when 5CMBG turned north and attacked the flank of the 174th Infantry Regiment, which was in the midst of pulling back. Short on supplies, the 174th Regiment simply disintegrated, taking nearly 900 killed and 600 captured.
Hermann Ritter von Speck, commander of XVIII Corps, had been killed in an airstrike along with most of his staff, leaving the corps to fend for itself. Columns of retreating men were attacked (and sometimes wiped out) from the air, spreading fear among the men as they had no way of harming the CF-18s. It wasn’t like the Luftwaffe could do anything either.
The I Canadian Corps pushed forward, tearing through German formations with light losses. By the end of the day, Canadian armoured reconnaissance units had reached La Chappelle and were closing in on La Grandville. The Germans opponents had swiftly collapsed in this area and were fleeing through the Ardennes.
On the 30th of June, the Canadian advance continued as troops started to push into the Ardennes. Progress was slower than the previous day since the terrain of the Ardennes was challenging to deal with. The hulks of destroyed German vehicles still littered the roads, which had also taken a beating from the RCAF. German troops were engaged in several locations. While they offered spirited resistance, they were overcome due to Canadian numbers and technology. The morale of the defenders was not high, either. Supplies hadn’t been getting through while ammunition was in short supply. Promised reinforcements had not come because of the heavily damaged railways in the Rhineland. This meant that any reinforcements would have to come by road, which was even more dangerous (easier targets from the air) and much slower. Four divisions intended to reinforce XVIII Corps were still waiting at railway centres back in Germany.
Buillon was reached on the evening of the 30th; Vresse-sur-Semois the following morning. In Berlin, Hitler was furious. He screamed, stomped, and threw things, demanding that the Canadian attack be stopped and thrown back to the Meuse. His wish would not be granted, as the situation for Germany would get worse over the next few weeks.
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Post by redrobin65 on Jan 2, 2019 3:30:02 GMT
 The light blue line shows advances made by Canadian and French units from the 29th of June to July 1st. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 2, 2019 3:44:04 GMT
June 29th, France
Operation SICKLE had been postponed over and over again for weeks. Despite their technology, I Canadian Corps still had issues with fuel and ammunition. They burned through the latter in an alarmingly short amount of time when fighting. Nonetheless, I Corps was now ready. One division had been taken off the order of battle, but the 1st, 2nd and 4th divisions, 38,000 in all, were ready and willing to attack.
The German forces on the opposite side of the Meuse were drawn from the OKH reserve, in this case from the Ninth Army. There were no Panzer divisions or motorized infantry, just line infantry. The 81st and 25th Infantry Divisions (XVIII Corps) were on the Meuse opposite the Canadians while other formations were held back for counterattacks. The Ninth Army had been weakened due to the removal of several divisions which ended up being sent to Belgium.
The Canadians had 105mm and 155mm guns, along with MLRS systems from BATUS, who did not have anything near the amount of crew required for all of their equipment. Even though new guns had been made in factories (M109s taken from storage, and AS-90s from BATUS), the amount of artillery that they had was tiny in comparison to the French, British, German, and Soviet armies. They made up for the low numbers of artillery with modern, accurate air support.
At 6:45 AM, the guns opened fire, hitting German positions along the Meuse. Aircraft pummeled supply lines and communication centres, further weakening the Germans. Troops accompanied by engineers crossed under the cover of artillery. Smoke screens were used to conceal the crossings. German units on the right bank of the Meuse were overwhelmed by artillery, airstrikes, and direct Canadian attacks on their positions.
Sedan was secured by a battalion from 10CMBG, but their advance was slow due to local German forces putting up stiff resistance. Nevertheless, the crossing was a success. Armoured vehicles rolled across pontoon bridges to reinforce the troops on the right bank. I Canadian Corps had established a beachhead that was 25 km wide and 2 kilometres deep by 9:30 AM.
Local German counterattacks occurred in several areas. In the south, 5CMBG was attacked by the 189th Infantry Regiment from the German 81st Infantry Division. Predictably, the attack was stopped with heavy casualties, causing the remnants of the regiment to retreat. Seeing an opportunity, the commander of 5CMBG ordered his mechanized and light armoured units forward. Led by the 12th Armoured Regiment, the brigade smashed through and destroyed the 189th Regiment. This success was followed by another when 5CMBG turned north and attacked the flank of the 174th Infantry Regiment, which was in the midst of pulling back. Short on supplies, the 174th Regiment simply disintegrated, taking nearly 900 killed and 600 captured.
Hermann Ritter von Speck, commander of XVIII Corps, had been killed in an airstrike along with most of his staff, leaving the corps to fend for itself. Columns of retreating men were attacked (and sometimes wiped out) from the air, spreading fear among the men as they had no way of harming the CF-18s. It wasn’t like the Luftwaffe could do anything either.
The I Canadian Corps pushed forward, tearing through German formations with light losses. By the end of the day, Canadian armoured reconnaissance units had reached La Chappelle and were closing in on La Grandville. The Germans opponents had swiftly collapsed in this area and were fleeing through the Ardennes.
On the 30th of June, the Canadian advance continued as troops started to push into the Ardennes. Progress was slower than the previous day since the terrain of the Ardennes was challenging to deal with. The hulks of destroyed German vehicles still littered the roads, which had also taken a beating from the RCAF. German troops were engaged in several locations. While they offered spirited resistance, they were overcome due to Canadian numbers and technology. The morale of the defenders was not high, either. Supplies hadn’t been getting through while ammunition was in short supply. Promised reinforcements had not come because of the heavily damaged railways in the Rhineland. This meant that any reinforcements would have to come by road, which was even more dangerous (easier targets from the air) and much slower. Four divisions intended to reinforce XVIII Corps were still waiting at railway centres back in Germany.
Buillon was reached on the evening of the 30th; Vresse-sur-Semois the following morning. In Berlin, Hitler was furious. He screamed, stomped, and threw things, demanding that the Canadian attack be stopped and thrown back to the Meuse. His wish would not be granted, as the situation for Germany would get worse over the next few weeks.
Nice to see a update redrobin65 |
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