lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 20, 2018 21:26:20 GMT
Nope, that is something different to what I have. I've just tried what seems like ten times to post my own map but failed. What I can get it to work, I will. Well only a question, thanks for the answer.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 20, 2018 21:38:24 GMT
This is looking very bad in California, which looked like it would hold earlier. Especially with the troops fighting there largely cut off. The US can't afford to lose any troops of its regular forces, let alone large numbers. There is the hint that the OPFOR Group will be seen again, despite their heavy losses but I doubt they can clear an escape path on their own. Plus will the political leadership be up to admitting such a defeat and ordering a withdrawal in time? As others have said its likely to be a bad time to be Hispanic in the US. Between American mistrust and possibly large, mostly wasteful and very difficult round ups by the authorities and the sort of treatment their likely to get from communist occupation forces. It probably won't get much better in the future either as no matter what happens there will be a lot of mistrust.
As I think someone said, but can't see it now, if their over-running much of southern California then San Diego is likely to be a big loss as isn't it a major base for the USN? Even if they get the ships out that would mean a lot of stuff being left behind and hopefully destroyed and the loss of the base and facilities will hit their operations.
We need a few more Buffaloes doing heavy runs on some of those concentrations and choke points while forces are tied up there but that needs planning in time and also a lot of air support.
The other option, although I can't see it being used, is a couple of tactical nukes on the attacking forces with a message to Moscow that if they respond then things get very serious. [In real life that would give the Soviets a big choice. Do they support an invasion of the US with further nuclear attacks and see their homeland attacked again or pull back. The latter would be disastrous politically but isn't likely to threaten their continued control of the USSR.]
I did say when we were last with Arizona/California that there was too much optimism at the new US joint command post. That general will be for the chop for how he deployed his forces. The Cubans broke open the seem, between the I MAF and the I Corps and drove into a gap. That OPFOR Group, like most of the I Corps, sits now in the Cubans rear. The US domestic situation when it comes to mistrust will be unpleasant indeed. San Diego is certainly at risk but the whole of Southern California is one big set of airbases - which were used to hit the Cubans so hard - along with military bases. Troops are what the US is short on. So the loss of the whole region, if the Cubans can break out, will be a blow. the Americans have been blowing infrastructure and stores elsewhere but there is always hesitation in doing that. Using your own nuclear weapons on your own soil? Would they? Would any country?
If its the question of a few small tactic nukes in relatively uninhabited desert areas in places like Arizona and New Mexico which stop dead an invasion threatening to overrun a large and highly populated part of the country I can see a lot of logic in it. Risky if you think the Soviets are going to expand the nuclear use themselves but are they going to risk their own cities and vital military and economic targets to support a failing invasion of the US or cut their losses? Their already been shocked by the US response in nuking Leningrad. If not at this stage when? When communist forces occupy Seattle, cross the Mississippi, march through Georgia, besiege New York? [True its unlikely that the Soviets will get that far but the Americans don't know that and if it seriously looks like their going to lose the most populated part of California, with resultant political as well as human and economic costs.]
Furthermore, assuming the Soviets don't go totally insane, it would almost certainly kill off the invasion very quickly. As well as the immediate military impact on the attacked forces just about everybody else among the invaders are going to be continually fearing further attacks, especially once the Soviets don't launch a nuclear response themselves. Commanders will probably seek to disperse their forces to minimise the damage of any new strike, which reduces their military effectiveness. Also at least some of the political leaders are going to wonder, if the Americans are willing to nuke attacking invading forces in their own country what's to stop them striking against LACom targets again, as they have already done in Mexico.
Basically it not only gives a vital pause in the pressure in the region but it puts the Soviets in a no win situation. If they don't escalate, quite possibly resulting in a full scale nuclear exchange, their attack on the US will quickly fold and their best off seeking to cut their losses. The US has already suffered badly and a deep split created between it and much of Europe while if their left to occupy the LACom states its going to be a substantial drain on their resources for years if not decades to come. [True the USSR will also have serious problems but their probably thinking they can survive it.]
The seam between units is always a weak point in a defensive position. Given the apparently poor co-operation between army and airforce as well this is always a danger while the Americans are scrambling to respond to the initial crisis. Until they have a stable defensive position and a chance to regroup there will be dangers of further disasters.
I also fear that there will be a lot of infighting and its going to be a bad time for any Latinos in the US. As your mentioned a lot of the invaders will doubt the loyalty of any people who have fled the rise of communism or even left earlier. Also I suspect, especially given the shock of invasion from the south and multiple nuclear strikes many Americans as well as parts of the government will be looking very suspiciously at a lot of their Latino population. Hopefully it won't go as far as applying the approach allegedly suggested by General Sheridan to Spanish speakers in the US. Furthermore in occupied areas as well as the occupying forces the home population are going to be untrusting and I can see a few people attacked as spies or collaborators.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 20, 2018 21:40:44 GMT
I did say when we were last with Arizona/California that there was too much optimism at the new US joint command post. That general will be for the chop for how he deployed his forces. The Cubans broke open the seem, between the I MAF and the I Corps and drove into a gap. That OPFOR Group, like most of the I Corps, sits now in the Cubans rear. The US domestic situation when it comes to mistrust will be unpleasant indeed. San Diego is certainly at risk but the whole of Southern California is one big set of airbases - which were used to hit the Cubans so hard - along with military bases. Troops are what the US is short on. So the loss of the whole region, if the Cubans can break out, will be a blow. the Americans have been blowing infrastructure and stores elsewhere but there is always hesitation in doing that. Using your own nuclear weapons on your own soil? Would they? Would any country? If its the question of a few small tactic nukes in relatively uninhabited desert areas in places like Arizona and New Mexico which stop dead an invasion threatening to overrun a large and highly populated part of the country I can see a lot of logic in it. Risky if you think the Soviets are going to expand the nuclear use themselves but are they going to risk their own cities and vital military and economic targets to support a failing invasion of the US or cut their losses? Their already been shocked by the US response in nuking Leningrad. If not at this stage when? When communist forces occupy Seattle, cross the Mississippi, march through Georgia, besiege New York? [True its unlikely that the Soviets will get that far but the Americans don't know that and if it seriously looks like their going to lose the most populated part of California, with resultant political as well as human and economic costs.]
Furthermore, assuming the Soviets don't go totally insane, it would almost certainly kill off the invasion very quickly. As well as the immediate military impact on the attacked forces just about everybody else among the invaders are going to be continually fearing further attacks, especially once the Soviets don't launch a nuclear response themselves. Commanders will probably seek to disperse their forces to minimise the damage of any new strike, which reduces their military effectiveness. Also at least some of the political leaders are going to wonder, if the Americans are willing to nuke attacking invading forces in their own country what's to stop them striking against LACom targets again, as they have already done in Mexico. Basically it not only gives a vital pause in the pressure in the region but it puts the Soviets in a no win situation. If they don't escalate, quite possibly resulting in a full scale nuclear exchange, their attack on the US will quickly fold and their best off seeking to cut their losses. The US has already suffered badly and a deep split created between it and much of Europe while if their left to occupy the LACom states its going to be a substantial drain on their resources for years if not decades to come. [True the USSR will also have serious problems but their probably thinking they can survive it.]
The seam between units is always a weak point in a defensive position. Given the apparently poor co-operation between army and airforce as well this is always a danger while the Americans are scrambling to respond to the initial crisis. Until they have a stable defensive position and a chance to regroup there will be dangers of further disasters. I also fear that there will be a lot of infighting and its going to be a bad time for any Latinos in the US. As your mentioned a lot of the invaders will doubt the loyalty of any people who have fled the rise of communism or even left earlier. Also I suspect, especially given the shock of invasion from the south and multiple nuclear strikes many Americans as well as parts of the government will be looking very suspiciously at a lot of their Latino population. Hopefully it won't go as far as applying the approach allegedly suggested by General Sheridan to Spanish speakers in the US. Furthermore in occupied areas as well as the occupying forces the home population are going to be untrusting and I can see a few people attacked as spies or collaborators. That is a good question stevep, if the United States use nuclear weapons on their own home soil, the Soviets might be less incline to use theirs as it might risk a second strike against their country.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 20, 2018 22:09:58 GMT
James Just caught up on the last two updates. Agree the best point with the US forces in Europe is not to send the men home ASAP and leave too much equipment behind as their going to be little use without it. Ditto that there being formed up rather than send into action piecemeal. Risky if things fall apart before they come into play but they will be a lot more effective. If Britain is sending forces to Canada that suggests that the Soviets don't attack Britain immediately. [Possibly hoping despite everything to keep even Britain neutral??] Otherwise I think there would be a need to keep just about everything, especially air wise at home. Plus with Norway being attacked Britain might seek to support it as forces were committed to help defending northern Norway. Also American forces and given the strategic advantages of keeping N Norway out of Soviet hands even some/all of the US forces tasked with supporting Norway in such an event could end up going there. [Both military ones in keeping the Soviet fleet and air units at more of a distance and possibly the political one that the US, unlike some , don't desert their allies in times of need. 1st mentioning of fighting in E Asia including major conflict in/with China, which would really tied down a lot of Soviet resources. China at this time is a lot weaker, with very large but poor quality forces that won't do a massive amount in anything but home defence but even limited conflict will restrict Soviet forces. Also it will cause problems for N Korea as well if the south is holding out as he will have to consider his own northern border - which might be a factor in triggering a major Sino-Soviet conflict. There is also the possibility of direct co-operation with the western powers, say supplying bases for intelligence gathering or even air attacks but that would depend on what capacities are available and how much the two sides trust each other. Just thought the communist parties in western Europe are going to take something of a battering, especially as more details of what the Soviets and their allies have been doing comes out. The aggressive use of nuclear weapons is going to shock all but the most fanatically and there will be a deep and clear Maoist/Leninist split.
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Post by redrobin65 on May 21, 2018 4:39:20 GMT
"through other parts of the globe the world was on fire."
Set the world on fire, then turn to strike again
Flames are burning higher, the bombs keep falling
AA guns are blazin' as the sky is turning red
Better run for cover, you’ll be quick or be dead
. . . I had to.
Also, good job. The COMBLOC has had a lot of success but a lot of setbacks. The Americans will organize properly sooner or later and the invaders will be in for a world of hurt.
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Post by lukedalton on May 21, 2018 12:02:38 GMT
Just a note, i'm not sure that many military families will be sent back in the USA, it's mean making a dangerous travel to return in a war zone, they will less a problem if they remain in Europe for the moment. Regarding stripping bare the various bases of all the equipment, while i think that this will be plan and desire...it will also mean, as you pointed, slowing the entire process. So soon the brass will be forced to take a decision as with the advance of the communist troops things are going critical and troops will be in desperate need and leave something behind in the hand of the traitorous european will be seen as the lesser evil.
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lordbyron
Warrant Officer
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Post by lordbyron on May 21, 2018 17:42:12 GMT
Good updates. Looking forward to what happened in the rest of the world...
Waiting for more, of course...
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on May 21, 2018 19:46:14 GMT
I did say when we were last with Arizona/California that there was too much optimism at the new US joint command post. That general will be for the chop for how he deployed his forces. The Cubans broke open the seem, between the I MAF and the I Corps and drove into a gap. That OPFOR Group, like most of the I Corps, sits now in the Cubans rear. The US domestic situation when it comes to mistrust will be unpleasant indeed. San Diego is certainly at risk but the whole of Southern California is one big set of airbases - which were used to hit the Cubans so hard - along with military bases. Troops are what the US is short on. So the loss of the whole region, if the Cubans can break out, will be a blow. the Americans have been blowing infrastructure and stores elsewhere but there is always hesitation in doing that. Using your own nuclear weapons on your own soil? Would they? Would any country?
If its the question of a few small tactic nukes in relatively uninhabited desert areas in places like Arizona and New Mexico which stop dead an invasion threatening to overrun a large and highly populated part of the country I can see a lot of logic in it. Risky if you think the Soviets are going to expand the nuclear use themselves but are they going to risk their own cities and vital military and economic targets to support a failing invasion of the US or cut their losses? Their already been shocked by the US response in nuking Leningrad. If not at this stage when? When communist forces occupy Seattle, cross the Mississippi, march through Georgia, besiege New York? [True its unlikely that the Soviets will get that far but the Americans don't know that and if it seriously looks like their going to lose the most populated part of California, with resultant political as well as human and economic costs.]
Furthermore, assuming the Soviets don't go totally insane, it would almost certainly kill off the invasion very quickly. As well as the immediate military impact on the attacked forces just about everybody else among the invaders are going to be continually fearing further attacks, especially once the Soviets don't launch a nuclear response themselves. Commanders will probably seek to disperse their forces to minimise the damage of any new strike, which reduces their military effectiveness. Also at least some of the political leaders are going to wonder, if the Americans are willing to nuke attacking invading forces in their own country what's to stop them striking against LACom targets again, as they have already done in Mexico.
Basically it not only gives a vital pause in the pressure in the region but it puts the Soviets in a no win situation. If they don't escalate, quite possibly resulting in a full scale nuclear exchange, their attack on the US will quickly fold and their best off seeking to cut their losses. The US has already suffered badly and a deep split created between it and much of Europe while if their left to occupy the LACom states its going to be a substantial drain on their resources for years if not decades to come. [True the USSR will also have serious problems but their probably thinking they can survive it.]
The seam between units is always a weak point in a defensive position. Given the apparently poor co-operation between army and airforce as well this is always a danger while the Americans are scrambling to respond to the initial crisis. Until they have a stable defensive position and a chance to regroup there will be dangers of further disasters.
I also fear that there will be a lot of infighting and its going to be a bad time for any Latinos in the US. As your mentioned a lot of the invaders will doubt the loyalty of any people who have fled the rise of communism or even left earlier. Also I suspect, especially given the shock of invasion from the south and multiple nuclear strikes many Americans as well as parts of the government will be looking very suspiciously at a lot of their Latino population. Hopefully it won't go as far as applying the approach allegedly suggested by General Sheridan to Spanish speakers in the US. Furthermore in occupied areas as well as the occupying forces the home population are going to be untrusting and I can see a few people attacked as spies or collaborators. I don't disagree with the logic there. Thinsg would probably play out as you say following the use of tac nukes. Even better, using a few more south of the border. The issue would be though that brings an effective end to the war... and my story. The US here has gone for the -we-can-defeat-this-conventionally approach. The Western Command - US forces in California and Arizona - are a mess. That USAF general will be for the chop. A light national guard unit, not one NATO-assigned and thus better trained, was the focal point of that attack. Bad news for the guys from Oregon and everyone either side of them. Withdrawals will have to be made. The internal troubles in US will be feasted upon by the enemy but also opportunists within. Bad things are due to occur as the race card rears its ugly head. That is a good question stevep, if the United States use nuclear weapons on their own home soil, the Soviets might be less incline to use theirs as it might risk a second strike against their country. Maybe... or maybe they go all out. That is the fear. James Just caught up on the last two updates. Agree the best point with the US forces in Europe is not to send the men home ASAP and leave too much equipment behind as their going to be little use without it. Ditto that there being formed up rather than send into action piecemeal. Risky if things fall apart before they come into play but they will be a lot more effective. If Britain is sending forces to Canada that suggests that the Soviets don't attack Britain immediately. [Possibly hoping despite everything to keep even Britain neutral??] Otherwise I think there would be a need to keep just about everything, especially air wise at home. Plus with Norway being attacked Britain might seek to support it as forces were committed to help defending northern Norway. Also American forces and given the strategic advantages of keeping N Norway out of Soviet hands even some/all of the US forces tasked with supporting Norway in such an event could end up going there. [Both military ones in keeping the Soviet fleet and air units at more of a distance and possibly the political one that the US, unlike some , don't desert their allies in times of need. 1st mentioning of fighting in E Asia including major conflict in/with China, which would really tied down a lot of Soviet resources. China at this time is a lot weaker, with very large but poor quality forces that won't do a massive amount in anything but home defence but even limited conflict will restrict Soviet forces. Also it will cause problems for N Korea as well if the south is holding out as he will have to consider his own northern border - which might be a factor in triggering a major Sino-Soviet conflict. There is also the possibility of direct co-operation with the western powers, say supplying bases for intelligence gathering or even air attacks but that would depend on what capacities are available and how much the two sides trust each other. Just thought the communist parties in western Europe are going to take something of a battering, especially as more details of what the Soviets and their allies have been doing comes out. The aggressive use of nuclear weapons is going to shock all but the most fanatically and there will be a deep and clear Maoist/Leninist split. That risk is something the US is gambling big on. the Atlantic is a war zone too and too much going across at once runs the risk of loss. The British move to Canada was a thousand odd men. They linked up with what units were at the Alberta training site and the gear there. Britain is in this from the start and won't be sending more troops. There is the Norway issue, the Baltic Exits, Iceland and the Med. for them to worry about with troops but also aircraft & ships. The pond jump to Canada was made long before that whole problem was recognised for the threat it was. The China Crisis / China War is coming soon and throws Soviet plans into disarray: it is all about North Korea. Soviet-supporting communism in Europe wasn't strong pre-war and it will be dead, very dead. "through other parts of the globe the world was on fire." Set the world on fire, then turn to strike again Flames are burning higher, the bombs keep falling AA guns are blazin' as the sky is turning red Better run for cover, you’ll be quick or be dead . . . I had to. Also, good job. The COMBLOC has had a lot of success but a lot of setbacks. The Americans will organize properly sooner or later and the invaders will be in for a world of hurt. The world is certainly on fire! Successes along with setbacks follow below. Canada will be looked at afterwards. Just a note, i'm not sure that many military families will be sent back in the USA, it's mean making a dangerous travel to return in a war zone, they will less a problem if they remain in Europe for the moment. Regarding stripping bare the various bases of all the equipment, while i think that this will be plan and desire...it will also mean, as you pointed, slowing the entire process. So soon the brass will be forced to take a decision as with the advance of the communist troops things are going critical and troops will be in desperate need and leave something behind in the hand of the traitorous european will be seen as the lesser evil. You are probably right. Here the decision is one of many mistakes made in haste. As to the bases & storage sites, again a hasty decision. There will have to be compromise soon enough on that because the US had a lot in Europe. Good updates. Looking forward to what happened in the rest of the world... Waiting for more, of course... Thank you. The world tour starts below.
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on May 21, 2018 20:01:25 GMT
Chapter Eleven – World On Fire
(175)
Mid to late September 1984: The Caribbean and Latin America
By the watch of the senior Soviet military officer in the country, Panama attacked the Canal Zone just short of four minutes early. That was contested by his hosts. They were on schedule according to the plan of attack. When pressed on that, the Panamanians said that, in fact, they were eighty years late. Panama’s action to take what was rightfully hers was anything but early. Noriega’s Panama was the only non-communist nation to enter the war against the United States at the start of the conflict. The primary reason was the utmost intention to restore what territory Panama regarded as their own. That was why Panama was in this war: to take the Canal Zone away from the Americans. Diplomacy had failed and an opportunity came in the form of foreign support. There was wariness in Noriega at the start yet the Castros and the Ortegas had convinced him that this would be his only chance to achieve what he wanted. Noriega signed-up for what would be his, and his country’s, ultimate doom: taking part in the surprise attack against the United States alongside the Soviets, the Cubans and the others in Latin America as well as outside.
The opening attack was made with artillery and heavy mortar strikes alongside commando assaults. Infantry, supported by light armour, moved in afterwards. The Atlantico and Pacifico Divisions (masses of ill-trained soldiers by with plenty of weaponry) made twin attacks at both ends of the Canal Zone. They went forward into the Canal Zone from outside to take on the American defenders and liberate that region which split their country in two. Taking the Panama Canal was just as important as that liberation of territory. Panama wanted it intact; Noriega’s friends from abroad wanted it taken as well. Panamanian special forces were joined by Cuban & Nicaraguan commandos when they struck ahead of the big infantry advances. The trio of locks were what was important and each was hit with big assaults conducted from within and without. American garrisons where there were US Army and US Air Force elements were assaulted with the aim of eliminating those inside them before they could mount any effective defence… and blow up the locks. It was one hell of a fight. Staged tension to draw American attention towards Panama before the war had seen the arrival of United States reinforcements to the Canal Zone: more than Panama wanted to see but not enough for the Soviet’s intentions. There was a readiness on the part of the Americans to fight. They were hit with far bigger forces than expected yet weren’t engaged like helpless babies. At the northern and southern ends of the Canal Zone, cut in half by Panamanian presence in the middle, the Americans fought back. They wouldn’t give in despite overwhelming numbers due to the assurance that soon, very soon, relief was coming their way. Orders were for the locks to be wired for demolition but not blown unless the Canal Zone was to be lost. The Gatun Locks had fallen into Panamanian hands right at the beginning due to a very fortunate series of mishaps going the Panamanian’s way but the Petro Miguel and Miraflores Locks were held by the Americans over the bodies of a lot of dead commandos. From Colon on the shores of the Caribbean, the Atlantico Division overwhelmed the smaller American forces near that city and extended control from the Gatun Locks to Fort Davis first then onto Fort Sherman and finally Fort Gulick: the last being the infamous School of the Americas. Each installation was overrun while the Americans fought between them but were pushed back and back. There then came the landing in Colon of Soviet troops two days later, a small brigade arriving by sea from Grenada of Soviet airmobile troops who fought as infantry alongside the Panamanians. The northern end of the Canal Zone fell with about a quarter of US troops in the country lost there: dead or prisoner.
Things were different in the south. Where the military installations were near the Pacific coast, the Panamanians with the Pacifico Division were unable to reach those locks near to Panama City. They also faced a strong country attack back towards their capital. Panama City was counter-shelled and raided by American paratroopers in light vehicles. On their way back out, the Bridge of the Americas, the only fixed crossing between the waterway which cut the Western Hemisphere in half, was blown by the Americans to deny further Panamanian use and secure their position. Fort Clayton was eventually taken but the trio of bases to the west of Panama City – Fort Amador, Fort Kobbe and Howard AFB – had seen the biggest concentration of American forces pre-war. There was the majority of the 193rd Infantry Brigade there along with the Devil Brigade of the 82nd Airborne Division. Air support from Howard was eventually lost due to Panamanian shelling – mortars, a lot of them, and joined by rockets too – but the US Air Force personnel joined in what became a last stand. It wasn’t supposed to be a last stand. There were meant to be reinforcements. They just were unable to come to Panama. Delay met delay. Eventually there came cancellation of a relief. Those fighting in Panama did so for six days before they were told that there was no one coming to save them and push the Panamanians back, Panamanians which got over towards them. Intelligence came about the Soviets moving southwards and that through Costa Rica there were Nicaraguans on their way too. Soviet aircraft out of Colon blasted the defenders from above. As to the canal infrastructure, the lead Soviet elements were driven back from taking the Pedro Miguel Locks but more men came onwards, joined by Panamanians pushed forwards by Noriega no matter what the cost. It was on September 23rd when the demolitions commenced. Finely-places charges smashed apart the Panama Canal as a useful waterway. The locks at Pedro Miguel and the Miraflores were blown to smithereens; so too was much of Howard’s remaining infrastructure plus the facilities at the small Rodman naval station. Divers went into the water afterwards to lay special anti-personnel mines to delay recovery efforts. A major Soviet attack came afterwards, forcing the Americans back from where they had blown those locks and soon with their backs to the sea. They were shelled and had no air cover but still they fought, for another three terrible days where they suffered immensely caught like they were. Eventually, with the best done that was possible, and the men furious at no relief having come, they surrendered on the 27th. Casualties were horrendous with the wounded in the Howard Pocket nearly outnumbering the unwounded: there was no ability to treat them effectively. Those and the failure for relief to come saw permission granted to give in. The commander of the US Army South – such a grand title for what little force there was left – at first refused to surrender his men to the Panamanians and opted to surrender to the Soviets: it was they who had eventually beaten his men and the belief was that despite the fact that they were Soviets, his men would face better treatment (a relative term) at their hands than at that of the Panamanians. The Soviets would have none of it. There were instructions that they had of their own when it came to any surrender: it was to be made to Panama.
Noriega had the Panamanian media present when the last of the Americans surrendered, like he had them when the Gatun Locks were taken and afterwards when he took a personal tour of the battered School of the Americas. He had revelled in the glory then but not after the American attacks against Panama City and then when they blew the other canal locks. He let a flunky deal with the American commanding general, a lowly major took the surrender of a man who greatly outranked him. Prisoners were led away. Their captivity wouldn’t be pleasant though the fears of a massacre were unfounded. Noriega had the Canal Zone and the Soviets had the Panama Canal. Good for them: there wasn’t much for either of them to use in each. Noriega also had another problem. He had the Soviets in his country. Did he really believe that they would eventually willingly leave?
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The Second Belize War was far shorter than the first. It lasted eleven days. This time, Guatemala emerged successful where it took control of the independent country which they claimed was rightful territory of theirs occupied by British Imperialists and Belizean counterrevolutionaries. This second conflict was far simpler than the first. There was no daring coastal assault nor any complicated planning. A simple, massed assault went over the border with Belmopan advanced upon first before the Guatemalans kept on driving towards the sea and Belize City. British Forces Belize and the Belize Defence Force did their best. Like the Americans in Panama, they were on their own and were first promised reinforcements but none were eventually able to come due to events elsewhere in the region and also beyond. The Guatemalans used artillery and tanks plus a lot of infantry. They refused to stop. When one regiment was held up, another pushed on through or it around after those ahead had soaked up bullets. The pair of divisional headquarters didn’t function as such and instead the corps commander – a competent enough man but supported by a Cuban staff – just pushed units forward. The British had their unfinished big airbase near Belize City and from there, RAF Harriers (which didn’t need much fixed infrastructure) raided his headquarters. There were other British actions like this when they made sudden lethal strikes outwards. Still, Guatemalan troops pushed onwards. British infantry and the Gurkhas with them withdrew and withdrew. They kept on falling back towards the sea. Eventually they ran out of room to manoeuvre. Belizean soldiers all around them fought and died for their country just as bravely as their comrades had done in 1982. It didn’t matter. The end came near to the landing sites of those Royal Marines in the first war. The British had twice the number of troops here this time than before and the Belizeans were better organised. The Guatemalans had quadrupled their numbers from two years before and increased their firepower to an even greater degree as well. Man-for-man, they were out-soldiered but they were pushed on relentlessly with no let-up. Surrender came and it was all over. Guarantees were given on the treatment of prisoners and those would be respected… when it came to British & Gurkha soldiers. The Guatemalans lied when it came to the Belizeans. Thousands of captured soldiers, along with thousands more civilians of the little country, would be massacred afterwards as Belize was brutally absorbed into Guatemala.
Guantanamo Bay was the third defeat suffered in the region. US Navy personnel and the US Marines present lasted a far shorter period of time than those defenders of the Canal Zone and Belize. There came shelling first, heavy Cuban artillery being used in abundance, to cover sappers clearing paths through Cuban minefields and then into those planted by the Americans around the base. Snipers cut down many of those engineers but more came. They opened up paths for Cuban tanks. Old T-55s were used and the Americans hit many of those yet the ones which survived crashed through the defences, defences studied for several decades so that they one day could be overcome. The Cubans used air power and rockets to strike behind the frontlines to kill those inside the base and destroy everything useful for the Americans in the final battle. All that they did was provide ruins for the Americans to fight in. It became hand-to-hand in the end, when the perimeter was broken open and Cuban infantry followed their tanks. The opposing troops fought where they could see the white’s of the eyes of the other. Tactical retreats were made and then localised counterattacks followed. Hundreds of men would die for a few yards of ground. It went on for four days. Then it was over. Cuba had Guantanamo Bay back late on September 20th. Its surviving defenders were marched off into captivity while the stench of death was all that remained in what Cuba said had been an outpost of imperialism. Guantanamo Bay had been a naval base for the Americans: it was just a destroyed bit of Cuban soil when finally taken. Both Castro Brothers went there (separately) for the propaganda shots but it was no good to anyone in the state it was left in. Garrison troops were sent in and they didn’t enjoy their time there among the rotting corpses.
The Cubans used a former infantry division as a reconfigured marine brigade for operations staged out of Grenada to take over islands throughout the Lesser Antilles. The Grenada garrison was only a few thousand men strong and they sure were busy. Their operations all weren’t conducted at once and spread over a week and a half. The 9th Marine Brigade met little opposition but was given quite the task and it was a logistical strain and a half to achieve all that was desired. If those in those islands had had the capacity to resist, then the Cubans would have found this impossible. There was no armed resistance through, only outside interference. The first landing was in Barbados where a surprise arrival of Cuban troops from a freighter was supported by a civilian airliner landing full of more men. Less then three hundred Cuban soldiers took over the island with Barbados’ government being taken wholly by surprise and unable to react. The Cubans just showed up and took over the airport plus the big port facilities. A few days later, it was almost the same with the independent island nations of St Lucia and St Vincent & the Grenadines. Cuban troops this time came on the back of demands made upon those governments not to resist: they had no soldiers to fight the Cubans which came by air and sea – a few hundred men at each again – within the hour and before any reply was drafted. France had troops on Martinique and sent some from there up to the nearby Guadeloupe (another one of their sovereign islands) first before effectively doing just what the Cubans had done had taking over the airport and main harbour on Dominica. If the two had clashed, France and Cuba, the Cubans were in the position to win but that wasn’t their intention. Dominica was saved from the presence of Cuban troops supposed to be ‘invited in’. The Cubans went elsewhere, striking northwards next. Antigua & Barbuda plus St Kitts & Nevis – again, tiny island nations with no armed forces – saw Cuban troops soon show up after demands were made on their governments for ‘regional security’. Then it was the island dependencies of Britain and the United States to the north of them. Anguilla, the British Virgin Islands, Montserrat and the US Virgin Islands were all undefended and there were Cuban troops in them soon enough. Puerto Rico, an armed camp full of eager national guardsmen ready to fight, was left alone: it was too big of a challenge to take on and the Cubans would have met defeat there unless there were a lot more of them. From Puerto Rico, American A-7 fighter-bombers shot-up the Vieques landing force (and national guardsmen were then moved there) yet St Croix and St Thomas were lost because permission wasn’t granted for the 92nd Infantry Brigade to move ahead of US Marines in support: those US Marines were left tied up defending Florida against an invasion which wasn’t coming. There was a reason for this being done and it wasn’t a land grab on the part of the Castros. Those islands had airports and harbours on this side of the Atlantic. They were undefended and valuable. They were now in Cuban hands and to be used by aircraft and ships coming across the Atlantic.
Jamaica was threatened with war by Cuba if it aided the British in Belize in any way. Costa Rica saw Nicaraguan troops move through their country towards Panama (arriving too late for the fight) and was unable to oppose this. Small Cuban special forces detachments moved into the British-administered Caymans and the Turks & Caicos Islands near to Cuba where they fought isolated detachments of British troops far from home and all alone when Cuba had regional dominance. The Dutch and the French had their island possessions left un-attacked but there was no doubt that should the Cubans have attacked them, they would have been lost too. Through South America, only Chile and Paraguay went to war directly against the Cubans and their Soviet backers. Both countries were far away from the war which was fought and won in Central America plus the Caribbean. Between them, other South American nations refused to enter the fight – on either side – but spend the first few weeks of the global conflict focused internally. There were things which hadn’t been done by Argentina, Brazil, Venezuela and the others went Kennedy was in the White House due to his action against others who had cracked down hard against internal resistance in the years leading up to the war. These countries professed support for the American’s plight but took their opportunity where they killed thousands of guerrillas, real and suspected, in major military operations soaked in blood. Communists and anyone else who had survived Operation Condor and South America’s dirty war for fear of American sanctions now faced death. Their own foreign backers from Cuba and Nicaragua didn’t lift a finger to help them.
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lordbyron
Warrant Officer
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Post by lordbyron on May 21, 2018 20:42:13 GMT
Yeah, Noriega is going to really regret joining the war in the end...
Waiting for more; the Central American Communist countries are not going to have a good time of it, and Cuba and Grenada are screwed...
Waiting for more...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2018 21:00:39 GMT
I guess from the POV of the Central Americans and Caribbean countries, this is payback for a century or so American interventionism into their nations. Interesting you show the School of the Americas. A lot of evil came out of that place in the form of training right-wing paramilitary groups and future dictators in the 50's all through to the 80's.
Poor Belize.
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on May 21, 2018 21:07:53 GMT
I guess from the POV of the Central Americans and Caribbean countries, this is payback for a century or so American interventionism into their nations. Interesting you show the School of the Americas. A lot of evil came out of that place in the form of training right-wing paramilitary groups and future dictators in the 50's all through to the 80's. Poor Belize. That is how Cuba, Guatemala and Nicaragua see it... Noriega was just being opportunist. If he fought with the US, an ally at a time of need, he would come out of this better: a canal zone not a war zone and a canal which is operational. Noriega was just one of the many bad people who learnt their trade as the School of the Americas. Yes, Belize is going to end up in a bad way. Guatemala was humiliated in '82 and has come back for seconds.
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on May 21, 2018 21:10:29 GMT
Yeah, Noriega is going to really regret joining the war in the end... Waiting for more; the Central American Communist countries are not going to have a good time of it, and Cuba and Grenada are screwed... Waiting for more... He's got nothing from it. Cuba is already being bombed to bit though Grenada for now is out of the firing line. More tomorrow.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on May 21, 2018 21:17:08 GMT
I don't disagree with the logic there. Thinsg would probably play out as you say following the use of tac nukes. Even better, using a few more south of the border. The issue would be though that brings an effective end to the war ... and my story. The US here has gone for the -we-can-defeat-this-conventionally approach. The Western Command - US forces in California and Arizona - are a mess. That USAF general will be for the chop. A light national guard unit, not one NATO-assigned and thus better trained, was the focal point of that attack. Bad news for the guys from Oregon and everyone either side of them. Withdrawals will have to be made. The internal troubles in US will be feasted upon by the enemy but also opportunists within. Bad things are due to occur as the race card rears its ugly head. The British move to Canada was a thousand odd men. They linked up with what units were at the Alberta training site and the gear there. Britain is in this from the start and won't be sending more troops. There is the Norway issue, the Baltic Exits, Iceland and the Med. for them to worry about with troops but also aircraft & ships. The pond jump to Canada was made long before that whole problem was recognised for the threat it was. The China Crisis / China War is coming soon and throws Soviet plans into disarray: it is all about North Korea. Soviet-supporting communism in Europe wasn't strong pre-war and it will be dead, very dead. Thank you. The world tour starts below.
James
I agree it would end the story pretty quickly, which is why I understand you wouldn't find it useful but I think its probably the most likely way of ending the war quickly and successfully.
Personally I would go for limited initial strikes within the US borders, as least likely to give the Soviets the motivation to escalate. Some strikes south of the border as well would be a lot more effective in stopping the invasion and probably undermining the LACom regimes. However there is more chance, albeit I would say still small, of the Soviets responding with nuclear counters in support of their allies.
Thanks for expanding on those points. Looking forward, albeit with some concerns to the world tour.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on May 21, 2018 21:33:36 GMT
I guess from the POV of the Central Americans and Caribbean countries, this is payback for a century or so American interventionism into their nations. Interesting you show the School of the Americas. A lot of evil came out of that place in the form of training right-wing paramilitary groups and future dictators in the 50's all through to the 80's. Poor Belize. That is how Cuba, Guatemala and Nicaragua see it... Noriega was just being opportunist. If he fought with the US, an ally at a time of need, he would come out of this better: a canal zone not a war zone and a canal which is operational. Noriega was just one of the many bad people who learnt their trade as the School of the Americas. Yes, Belize is going to end up in a bad way. Guatemala was humiliated in '82 and has come back for seconds.
I hope that's just for the short term and that Guatemala comes to regret its actions. Its all too common the sort of massacres in Latin American dictatorships but there will be a hell of a lot of angry Brits and others seeking revenge when the time comes. As well as seeking to liberate those lands the Cubans have taken. Its going to be more difficult in the shorter term however with so many bases in Cuban hands.
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