lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 15, 2018 12:56:57 GMT
(117)June 1984: Exercise Friendship had been planned all year with a start date of June 2nd where Warsaw Pact military forces across Eastern Europe would take place in large scale war games spread across Czechoslovakia, East Germany and Poland. There would be Soviet participation as well with the lead set by them. Events in Poland had interfered with the exercises. Polish participation was certainty out and there was to be none of the exercises taking place in Poland. Friendship was still meant to take place though. It did… but became Operation Unity instead. The war games became real as Unity saw an invasion – or an intervention as the other countries would claim – of Poland. Soviet forces already inside Poland joined with more coming in from outside of the nation engaged in a civil war alongside other troops from Czechoslovakia and East Germany. Order would be restored in Poland: that was the purpose of Unity. If it meant engaging Polish military units alongside armed counterrevolutionaries, so be it. The rules of engagement were quite lax considering Poland remained an ally and there was last-minute arm-twisting diplomacy where officially Warsaw Pact forces were invited into Poland to provide ‘fraternal military assistance’. Unity was to be a bloodbath but with only one possible outcome: victory for those invading/intervening. The Polish Armed Forces had their own military counter-intelligence and political security organisation, the Wojskowa Służba Wewnętrzna ( WSW). This was an organisation meant to make sure that the military kept political discipline and also that there was no ability for any sort of military coup to take place. The WSW had been busy through the past couple of months arresting officers and enlisted men who were accused of plotting against the state and acting in rebellion. They were no heroes of a free and democratic Poland. They were patriots though. The WSW became aware of the incoming invasion with a couple of days notice. Russian and German troops – the Czechoslovaks weren’t as significant – were once again about to rape Poland. For anyone who loved Poland, to see history repeating itself again like this was enough to cause despair and anger. There came a decision among senior figures at the top of the WSW to stop Unity from achieving its goal of crushing Poland whatever the political motive. If that meant that everything must be sacrificed, then that would be the case. There could be no repeat of the past where the historic enemies of the Polish people and Polish freedom were allowed to carve Poland up once again. On the eve of the incoming Unity operation, forged orders were sent out to Polish military units. These were hand-delivered messages sent with the correct authorization codes and as near to the real thing as possible: no traffic was sent over the airwaves. Those who received the orders were told a version of the truth as the WSW saw it. They were instructed to fight. Having many troops of their own already inside Poland gave the Soviets an overwhelming advantage in getting Unity underway. The Northern Group of Forces commanded the Twentieth Guards Army – moved out of East Germany the other year – which consisted of five combat divisions plus supporting arms spread across the west and northwest of Poland. These went straight from their barracks into action. Also sent to overcome the armed counterrevolutionaries in Poland was an airborne division and a naval infantry brigade moving from the Baltic Military District, on Poland’s northeastern borders, who went into the Gdansk-Gdynia area. All of these were Soviet formations held at the ‘Ready’ level: what NATO would deem ‘Category A’. Two East German Army divisions along with three Czechoslovak divisions moved up from the south and southwest into Poland and reported to the Czechoslovak First Army. These non-Soviet formations weren’t at full readiness with complete numbers of active soldiers on duty for that would require mobilisation, but they were still all good units regardless. Further Soviet troops, reinforcements readying to form a third field army to operate under Northern Group of Forces command, were partially-mobilised through the Baltic, Belorussian and Carpathian Military Districts: these were ‘Reduced Strength I’ units, NATO-designated ‘Category B’. They actually wouldn’t end up going into Poland and be further mobilised in the months ahead to go somewhere else entirely. Soviet, Czechoslovak and East German forces went into combat against Polish counterrevolutionaries but also the Polish Armed Forces. The stab in the back, as the Soviets saw it, was a shock though not something completely outrageous and wholly unexpected. The WSW achieved what would be deemed operational surprise rather than strategic surprise with what they did. There had been a belief that the Poles might resist and countermoves made to try and stop that yet the WSW had been quite effective in striking early and striking hard. Still, when Polish troops opened fire on those outsiders involved in Unity, they did do a lot of damage to the operation. Soviet forces were ripped into yet there was even more of an effort made to attack the East Germans as well. Militarily stupid this might have been due to the low numbers of East Germans, but it happened regardless. The price for Poland was heavy. Polish soldiers were slaughtered like Polish civilians were. Polish military actions were uncoordinated and incomplete. The Polish Army wasn’t fighting as one in a joint effort where there had been planning: units were already hit by desertions and munities and now had many refusing to follow the fake orders from the WSW. The Polish Air Force stayed on the ground and the Polish Navy stayed in port. The WSW leadership was eliminated by the actions of the Polish SB plus special KGB Spetsnaz units too. Hostage-taking occurred among the family members of commanders of Polish units engaging Unity forces where they were told those innocents would be killed unless the officers removed their forces from combat. This all combined to smash the ability of the Polish Armed Forces to fight successfully in the defence of their country. As to Unity’s primary objective, that being to eliminate those deemed counterrevolutionaries, it was fulfilled. It took longer than planned and cost a lot more than foreseen, but the end came for Polish resistance in the face of such a massive combined arms attack. Those Polish factories were destroyed and infrastructure nationwide ruined as well. Tens of thousands, maybe a hundred thousand, lost their lives. Bullets did a lot of that, those fired on the front lines and then in massacres afterwards, but so too did the liberal use of heavy fire-power: artillery, rocket barrages and aerial bombing. All that was before the final ‘security operation’ where captured counterrevolutionaries were then sentenced for betraying the Polish People’s Republic. The Czechoslovaks and East Germans went home before that happened and a lot of Soviet troops returned to their barracks: to kill so many Poles and stuff out the last of resistance came the arrival of special KGB units brought in to do this quietly but at an industrial pace less the flame of resistance be lit any time in the near future. The fear of the WSW where there would be a rape of Poland came true. Wow the Polish Revolution of 1984 is bloody. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 15, 2018 13:39:46 GMT
James Well that was bloody. It sounds like the Soviets intend to destroy Polish identity and ability to act as a state for some time to come.  This means they will lack any significant Polish forces for the foreseeable future as well as having to occupy Poland for quite a while. Also the fact the WSW finally decided their country was more important than the party would mean there would be little/no trust on either side for quite a while as well. One question. Given the strength of resistance and Soviet doctrine at the time, was there any use of chemical weapons against the Poles? I suspect [and hope] not and you don't mention it but it would be within their normal military policy. We know that the bulk of NATO seems to be cowered into neutrality in the coming conflict but I would expect some anger. Also I can see this going down well in the US. A lot of people are going to ask the President questions. I am a bit concerned about the line about the 2nd level Soviet units, "They actually wouldn’t end up going into Poland and be further mobilised in the months ahead to go somewhere else entirely." |
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James G
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Post by James G on Apr 15, 2018 14:31:36 GMT
Wow the Polish Revolution of 1984 is bloody. It was never going to be not, especially since the Poles resisted as strong as they did. James Well that was bloody. It sounds like the Soviets intend to destroy Polish identity and ability to act as a state for some time to come. This means they will lack any significant Polish forces for the foreseeable future as well as having to occupy Poland for quite a while. Also the fact the WSW finally decided their country was more important than the party would mean there would be little/no trust on either side for quite a while as well. One question. Given the strength of resistance and Soviet doctrine at the time, was there any use of chemical weapons against the Poles? I suspect [and hope] not and you don't mention it but it would be within their normal military policy. We know that the bulk of NATO seems to be cowered into neutrality in the coming conflict but I would expect some anger. Also I can see this going down well in the US. A lot of people are going to ask the President questions. I am a bit concerned about the line about the 2nd level Soviet units, "They actually wouldn’t end up going into Poland and be further mobilised in the months ahead to go somewhere else entirely." Poland will be a long-running sore. Poland will play no meaningful role in the coming big war after this too. No chemicals. I decided against that. I might change my mind later and edit but I chose not to when writing it. Western Europe will be up in arms; so too much of the United States. Poland is not Afghanistan. As to the last line: that is deliberate! Second update of the day below. Hoping to write four leading up to the decision to go to war. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Apr 15, 2018 14:33:47 GMT
(118)
June 1984:
The declaration back in April by Kennedy that the Mexican civil war was somewhere off-limits to Cuba and its regional allies had been treated as an idle threat by many. An airbase had been bombed and the American president had used stern words. And that had been that. Communist forces continued to advance in Mexico and there had come the collapse of the regimes in Honduras first then El Salvador next. The forces of socialism, Latin American style, were on the march. No matter what Kennedy said, the last domino, that being Mexico, would topple. From Havana, Castro was determined to see that through. The Soviets had their concerns, which they had expressed, yet they had not threatened to put a stop to what they had encouraged to start. It would continue regardless of what was said in Washington. The Ortega brothers, Guatemala’s leaders and the Grenadian leadership too joined with their Cuban sponsor in giving assistance to the regime in Mexico City in reuniting that country so it could join with them in collective self-defence against the imperialism of the norteamericanos.
Washington was distracted yet there was still attention being paid to Mexico. It couldn’t be ignored, not with all that was going on. There were still refugees arriving in the United States who fled from that civil war and the Northern Alliance was looking like it was soon to collapse as different factions broke away from the Monterrey Government. Herzog Flores came to Washington and met first with Mondale then with Kennedy. While trying to maintain the dignity of a statesman and the president of an independent nation, he pleaded for help nonetheless. Non-communist Mexico wanted weapons and American air strikes to fight communist Mexico. A blockade was requested to stop aircraft and ships bringing in arms and supplies for Tirado López to keep his offensive up. There was too intelligence passed on about the Nicaraguan military advisers who were supporting the communist advance – something which the United States had recently confirmed through its own sources – and unsupported allegations that moving across from Guatemala were Guatemalan & Nicaraguan troops disguised as volunteers. Help us, Herzog Flores plead, of we will fall! Vance and Turner (Kennedy’s Director of Central Intelligence and National Security Adviser respectively) supported much of what the Monterrey Government said when it came to Nicaragua though there was more of a focus on Cuba. It was Cuba that was behind all of this. Little Cuba was punching above its weight with Castro determined to be on a collision course with the United States. Political pressure within the country, in Washington but also among the Border States, had only increased recently. Boots on the ground, was one strong call: American soldiers fighting inside Mexico during the civil war there in a conflict that any sensible person would know would have only the bloodiest of endings. Kemp locked-up the Republican nomination running on his platform of attacking Kennedy’s ‘inaction’, especially when it came to Cuban interference in Mexico. He’s be doing that in November too, that much was certain. Early June saw the invasion of Poland and a lot of attention paid to that but there was heightened Cuban air and naval activity around the Yucatán Peninsula. Weapons were going into Mexico, maybe even Cuban military advisers too.
The June air strike was named Operation Blue Shard. This time it was focused against Cuban forces operating inside Mexico. It was meant to stop Castro and get him to back off. Kennedy was out to teach Havana that he meant business. The US Air Force took to the skies again and went up against an opponent known to be stronger than communist forces in Mexico. Cuban opposition was expected for they were the target. Those targets were located at the air facilities in Cozumel and Mérida as well as the harbours at Campeche and Cancún. Transport aircraft and freighters were bombed. Cuban fighters entered the sky, observed at a distance and then fired upon from afar. These were MiG-21s flying out of Cuba over international waters and when hit by Sparrow missiles fired from F-15s, it was deemed ‘killing baby seals’. The F-15s then got a different warning call coming from their fighter controllers aboard an E-3 while they covered the outbound fight of F-111s. New fighter contacts were in the sky climbing out of Cuba: Fulcrums. The Cubans had themselves some MiG-29s. Could they catch and pursue the departing F-111s? Not likely. Were they a threat to the F-15s who were also going home? It depended upon your view of what was a threat. The rules of engagement for Blue Shard were flexible when it came to Cuban air interference. The MiG-21s had been manoeuvring to defend Cuban air transports over the declared combat zone but the MiG-29s were still out over the Yucatán Channel. There was the chance that they were there to stop an incursion of Cuban air space but maybe they meant to shoot down American fighters and strike aircraft. A judgement call was made on Cuban intentions with their latest and best fighter aircraft: they were hostile and self-defense would be used. The F-15s sent the leading pair down to the waters below using long-range shots from which the Cubans had no defence. If they survived the shootdown, the Cuban pilots were going to have to take their chances with the sharks there.
Cuba and its allies at once denounced the air strikes. Blue Shard was an act of aggression, an illegal undertaking. Mexican sovereign air space had been invaded and war crimes committed. Civilian aircraft and ships had been attacked while delivering food & medical aid to Mexico and also evacuating orphans – war orphans! – too. There had been civilian casualties on the ground in Mexico as well, it was said. Tirado López also had a lot to say, with another one of his big speeches made to adoring crowds in Mexico City – this was all staged managed – proclaiming that this was aggression and it wouldn’t stand. The Mexican people would fight the gringos to defend the revolution! That revolution would continue until it reached Tijuana, Juárez, Monterrey and Matamoros! Onwards, the revolution would go, onwards to victory.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 15, 2018 14:43:53 GMT
(118)June 1984: The declaration back in April by Kennedy that the Mexican civil war was somewhere off-limits to Cuba and its regional allies had been treated as an idle threat by many. An airbase had been bombed and the American president had used stern words. And that had been that. Communist forces continued to advance in Mexico and there had come the collapse of the regimes in Honduras first then El Salvador next. The forces of socialism, Latin American style, were on the march. No matter what Kennedy said, the last domino, that being Mexico, would topple. From Havana, Castro was determined to see that through. The Soviets had their concerns, which they had expressed, yet they had not threatened to put a stop to what they had encouraged to start. It would continue regardless of what was said in Washington. The Ortega brothers, Guatemala’s leaders and the Grenadian leadership too joined with their Cuban sponsor in giving assistance to the regime in Mexico City in reuniting that country so it could join with them in collective self-defence against the imperialism of the norteamericanos. Washington was distracted yet there was still attention being paid to Mexico. It couldn’t be ignored, not with all that was going on. There were still refugees arriving in the United States who fled from that civil war and the Northern Alliance was looking like it was soon to collapse as different factions broke away from the Monterrey Government. Herzog Flores came to Washington and met first with Mondale then with Kennedy. While trying to maintain the dignity of a statesman and the president of an independent nation, he pleaded for help nonetheless. Non-communist Mexico wanted weapons and American air strikes to fight communist Mexico. A blockade was requested to stop aircraft and ships bringing in arms and supplies for Tirado López to keep his offensive up. There was too intelligence passed on about the Nicaraguan military advisers who were supporting the communist advance – something which the United States had recently confirmed through its own sources – and unsupported allegations that moving across from Guatemala were Guatemalan & Nicaraguan troops disguised as volunteers. Help us, Herzog Flores plead, of we will fall! Vance and Turner (Kennedy’s Director of Central Intelligence and National Security Adviser respectively) supported much of what the Monterrey Government said when it came to Nicaragua though there was more of a focus on Cuba. It was Cuba that was behind all of this. Little Cuba was punching above its weight with Castro determined to be on a collision course with the United States. Political pressure within the country, in Washington but also among the Border States, had only increased recently. Boots on the ground, was one strong call: American soldiers fighting inside Mexico during the civil war there in a conflict that any sensible person would know would have only the bloodiest of endings. Kemp locked-up the Republican nomination running on his platform of attacking Kennedy’s ‘inaction’, especially when it came to Cuban interference in Mexico. He’s be doing that in November too, that much was certain. Early June saw the invasion of Poland and a lot of attention paid to that but there was heightened Cuban air and naval activity around the Yucatán Peninsula. Weapons were going into Mexico, maybe even Cuban military advisers too. The June air strike was named Operation Blue Shard. This time it was focused against Cuban forces operating inside Mexico. It was meant to stop Castro and get him to back off. Kennedy was out to teach Havana that he meant business. The US Air Force took to the skies again and went up against an opponent known to be stronger than communist forces in Mexico. Cuban opposition was expected for they were the target. Those targets were located at the air facilities in Cozumel and Mérida as well as the harbours at Campeche and Cancún. Transport aircraft and freighters were bombed. Cuban fighters entered the sky, observed at a distance and then fired upon from afar. These were MiG-21s flying out of Cuba over international waters and when hit by Sparrow missiles fired from F-15s, it was deemed ‘killing baby seals’. The F-15s then got a different warning call coming from their fighter controllers aboard an E-3 while they covered the outbound fight of F-111s. New fighter contacts were in the sky climbing out of Cuba: Fulcrums. The Cubans had themselves some MiG-29s. Could they catch and pursue the departing F-111s? Not likely. Were they a threat to the F-15s who were also going home? It depended upon your view of what was a threat. The rules of engagement for Blue Shard were flexible when it came to Cuban air interference. The MiG-21s had been manoeuvring to defend Cuban air transports over the declared combat zone but the MiG-29s were still out over the Yucatán Channel. There was the chance that they were there to stop an incursion of Cuban air space but maybe they meant to shoot down American fighters and strike aircraft. A judgement call was made on Cuban intentions with their latest and best fighter aircraft: they were hostile and self-defense would be used. The F-15s sent the leading pair down to the waters below using long-range shots from which the Cubans had no defence. If they survived the shootdown, the Cuban pilots were going to have to take their chances with the sharks there. Cuba and its allies at once denounced the air strikes. Blue Shard was an act of aggression, an illegal undertaking. Mexican sovereign air space had been invaded and war crimes committed. Civilian aircraft and ships had been attacked while delivering food & medical aid to Mexico and also evacuating orphans – war orphans! – too. There had been civilian casualties on the ground in Mexico as well, it was said. Tirado López also had a lot to say, with another one of his big speeches made to adoring crowds in Mexico City – this was all staged managed – proclaiming that this was aggression and it wouldn’t stand. The Mexican people would fight the gringos to defend the revolution! That revolution would continue until it reached Tijuana, Juárez, Monterrey and Matamoros! Onwards, the revolution would go, onwards to victory. So it is 2-0 for the RAF and the United States Air Force and 0 points for the Cuban Revolutionary Air and Air Defense Force (why do the Communists countries always need to use so long names for their armed forces). |
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James G
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Post by James G on Apr 15, 2018 15:55:30 GMT
(118)June 1984: The declaration back in April by Kennedy that the Mexican civil war was somewhere off-limits to Cuba and its regional allies had been treated as an idle threat by many. An airbase had been bombed and the American president had used stern words. And that had been that. Communist forces continued to advance in Mexico and there had come the collapse of the regimes in Honduras first then El Salvador next. The forces of socialism, Latin American style, were on the march. No matter what Kennedy said, the last domino, that being Mexico, would topple. From Havana, Castro was determined to see that through. The Soviets had their concerns, which they had expressed, yet they had not threatened to put a stop to what they had encouraged to start. It would continue regardless of what was said in Washington. The Ortega brothers, Guatemala’s leaders and the Grenadian leadership too joined with their Cuban sponsor in giving assistance to the regime in Mexico City in reuniting that country so it could join with them in collective self-defence against the imperialism of the norteamericanos. Washington was distracted yet there was still attention being paid to Mexico. It couldn’t be ignored, not with all that was going on. There were still refugees arriving in the United States who fled from that civil war and the Northern Alliance was looking like it was soon to collapse as different factions broke away from the Monterrey Government. Herzog Flores came to Washington and met first with Mondale then with Kennedy. While trying to maintain the dignity of a statesman and the president of an independent nation, he pleaded for help nonetheless. Non-communist Mexico wanted weapons and American air strikes to fight communist Mexico. A blockade was requested to stop aircraft and ships bringing in arms and supplies for Tirado López to keep his offensive up. There was too intelligence passed on about the Nicaraguan military advisers who were supporting the communist advance – something which the United States had recently confirmed through its own sources – and unsupported allegations that moving across from Guatemala were Guatemalan & Nicaraguan troops disguised as volunteers. Help us, Herzog Flores plead, of we will fall! Vance and Turner (Kennedy’s Director of Central Intelligence and National Security Adviser respectively) supported much of what the Monterrey Government said when it came to Nicaragua though there was more of a focus on Cuba. It was Cuba that was behind all of this. Little Cuba was punching above its weight with Castro determined to be on a collision course with the United States. Political pressure within the country, in Washington but also among the Border States, had only increased recently. Boots on the ground, was one strong call: American soldiers fighting inside Mexico during the civil war there in a conflict that any sensible person would know would have only the bloodiest of endings. Kemp locked-up the Republican nomination running on his platform of attacking Kennedy’s ‘inaction’, especially when it came to Cuban interference in Mexico. He’s be doing that in November too, that much was certain. Early June saw the invasion of Poland and a lot of attention paid to that but there was heightened Cuban air and naval activity around the Yucatán Peninsula. Weapons were going into Mexico, maybe even Cuban military advisers too. The June air strike was named Operation Blue Shard. This time it was focused against Cuban forces operating inside Mexico. It was meant to stop Castro and get him to back off. Kennedy was out to teach Havana that he meant business. The US Air Force took to the skies again and went up against an opponent known to be stronger than communist forces in Mexico. Cuban opposition was expected for they were the target. Those targets were located at the air facilities in Cozumel and Mérida as well as the harbours at Campeche and Cancún. Transport aircraft and freighters were bombed. Cuban fighters entered the sky, observed at a distance and then fired upon from afar. These were MiG-21s flying out of Cuba over international waters and when hit by Sparrow missiles fired from F-15s, it was deemed ‘killing baby seals’. The F-15s then got a different warning call coming from their fighter controllers aboard an E-3 while they covered the outbound fight of F-111s. New fighter contacts were in the sky climbing out of Cuba: Fulcrums. The Cubans had themselves some MiG-29s. Could they catch and pursue the departing F-111s? Not likely. Were they a threat to the F-15s who were also going home? It depended upon your view of what was a threat. The rules of engagement for Blue Shard were flexible when it came to Cuban air interference. The MiG-21s had been manoeuvring to defend Cuban air transports over the declared combat zone but the MiG-29s were still out over the Yucatán Channel. There was the chance that they were there to stop an incursion of Cuban air space but maybe they meant to shoot down American fighters and strike aircraft. A judgement call was made on Cuban intentions with their latest and best fighter aircraft: they were hostile and self-defense would be used. The F-15s sent the leading pair down to the waters below using long-range shots from which the Cubans had no defence. If they survived the shootdown, the Cuban pilots were going to have to take their chances with the sharks there. Cuba and its allies at once denounced the air strikes. Blue Shard was an act of aggression, an illegal undertaking. Mexican sovereign air space had been invaded and war crimes committed. Civilian aircraft and ships had been attacked while delivering food & medical aid to Mexico and also evacuating orphans – war orphans! – too. There had been civilian casualties on the ground in Mexico as well, it was said. Tirado López also had a lot to say, with another one of his big speeches made to adoring crowds in Mexico City – this was all staged managed – proclaiming that this was aggression and it wouldn’t stand. The Mexican people would fight the gringos to defend the revolution! That revolution would continue until it reached Tijuana, Juárez, Monterrey and Matamoros! Onwards, the revolution would go, onwards to victory. So it is 2-0 for the RAF and the United States Air Force and 0 points for the Cuban Revolutionary Air and Air Defense Force (why do the Communists countries always need to use so long names for their armed forces). It doesn't bode well for Cuba and their fighting in the future! People's Liberation Army Air Force is a brilliant one. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 15, 2018 16:25:09 GMT
So it is 2-0 for the RAF and the United States Air Force and 0 points for the Cuban Revolutionary Air and Air Defense Force (why do the Communists countries always need to use so long names for their armed forces). It doesn't bode well for Cuba and their fighting in the future! People's Liberation Army Air Force is a brilliant one. I do hope they will have pilots left for when the big war begins. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Apr 15, 2018 17:20:29 GMT
It doesn't bode well for Cuba and their fighting in the future! People's Liberation Army Air Force is a brilliant one. I do hope they will have pilots left for when the big war begins. They will need them indeed. The US Air Force fighting over its own soil will have all of the advantages. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Apr 15, 2018 17:20:44 GMT
(119)
June 1984:
There was absolute outrage across the West when it came to the Soviet invasion of Poland. Governments denounced the entry of troops to fight civilians. Activists and campaigners joined them though using less diplomatic language. There were even protest marches in some countries. No one wanted to listen to, let alone believe, the rubbish that this wasn’t an invasion but a friendly intervention where order was being restored and there were only good intentions etc. Almost no one that was. The useful idiots and the dedicated subversives got busy. Soviet propaganda and disinformation was spread willingly and unwillingly as excuses were made and the waters mudded on the matter: there were claims of ‘fascist counterrevolution’ and ‘Imperialist plots’. When reports came out of Poland of the mass deaths when troops engaged civilians but also the deliberate massacres, there were smears made against those who spoke out against them. Generally, public opinion was with their governments that what the Soviets had done in Poland was an outrage though some of that anger was lost when the voices of those denying that this was the case were given a platform. Britain and West Germany saw the biggest influence of those useful idiots and the subversives; in the UK, the usual suspects were aplenty and they even organised a few counter-protests against the demonstrations which took place in London near to the Soviet Embassy with prominent public speakers getting their voices heard. Across in West Germany, early June saw a NATO military alert take place when Soviet & Warsaw Pact forces attacked Poland. It was a small-scale affair and just precautionary. This came at the same time as one of the biggest anti-nuclear marches in the country in recent times was taking place where nuclear power and nuclear weapons were treated as the same. These had been gaining strength for a long time and had support in the Bundestag from The Greens, who remained in a parliamentary alliance with the ruling SPD. No war came the call from the marchers when Poland was spoken of. That didn’t mean no war with regards to Soviet troops fighting in Poland. It meant no war when it came to rumours spread that NATO would attack eastwards now given an excuse with the apparent ‘lies’ being told about Poland all part of a giant conspiracy to prepare for a hostile war of aggression. It was all absolute rubbish. When it was pointed out to some of those protesting against nuclear power and nuclear weapons, and who decried any criticism of Soviet actions in Poland, that they would be the first in line to be shot should West Germany ever be invaded by those peace-loving Soviet soldiers on internationalist duty, they looked at those who said such silly things with incredulity!
Governments in Western Europe had seen an approach made to them right before the invasion of Poland where the Soviet Union made an offer on access to cheap oil as long as there was an agreement to buy lots of it. There would be a joint financing of pipelines as well to make the transfer easier in the future and further reduce the price. The bribe wasn’t seen exactly for what it was until Poland happened. It was a good deal and one which was rejected despite economic woes. Ties were being cut with the Soviets as well in terms of many non-ambassadorial diplomatic ones plus other trade agreements. The horror of what was being done to Poland was brought home to the West by news smuggled out of that country in the form of witness reports first before photographs and some video footage. Intelligence agencies were able to get more information too. Western Europe was united on this issue of wanting nothing to do with the Soviet Union anymore. Ustinov was a butcher. However, they weren’t united on other matters elsewhere that were taking place at the same time as Poland was going on. American clashes with Cuba weren’t seen in the simple good guys / bad guys fashion. If allegations of serious Cuban involvement in Mexico were true – the if was important there – then it needed to be stopped. However, the way that Kennedy was going about it upset other governments. There was near-zero warning given to NATO allies when it acme to American air strikes first in April and then again in June. In all honestly, there didn’t have to be but it would have been the correct thing to do when it came to allies. This unilateralism wasn’t any way to win international support. There was too the issue with Libya where the Americans had traded shots with the Libyans who were engaged in a conflict with Egypt that Western European governments wanted no part of. Libya was in the wrong but Libya was an increasingly prominent oil supplier for some countries following the events in recent years in the Middle East with Iranian and then Iraqi oil cut off. This time there was no unilateral action but there was the position which came afterwards from Kennedy that the United States would do as it must in the Middle East with or without their support. Just as the Soviets saw the matter, Kennedy appeared to Western Europe to be acting like he was internationally to shore up domestic support at home when it was looking increasingly likely every day that he was going to lose in November unless he did something. He was doing something now and not thinking of the consequences.
Consequences were an issue at the same time across in Turkey. Kurdish terrorism continued with further Kurds pushed into Turkey by the regimes in Damascus and Baghdad. Turkey then watched as several Soviet warships made stops in Souda Bay, that former NATO naval base in Crete. The Greeks gave them a welcome and then the ships moved onwards. Those same ships had come through the Turkish Straits first but that was a side issue in how Turkey saw the matter. They had been right all along: Greece was about to enter the Soviet orbit! Following on from this, there came the assassination on Turkish soil of a senior Israeli spymaster with the involvement in that being identified as being Palestinians doing it at the behest of Libya. The victim was Rafi Eitan, a former Mossad man who ran a scientific research group… a spy front for Israeli intelligence-gathering in the west among supposedly friendly countries. Eitan was also an expert on counter-terrorism – his methods were ones which provoked criticism from some – and he was in Turkey to offer polite guidance as to how to deal with the Kurds before Libya had him killed. The Kurdish issue, the Greek issue and the Libya issue were all separate. That was the truth of the matter to outsiders. It wasn’t viewed that way by those Turkish generals who’d been telling the Americans this for several years now and getting nowhere. The hand of Moscow was behind this. No real support for the Turkish view came from Western Europe either as the Kennedy view on Turkey’s woes was mirrored – not shared – among those governments: they had less time for Turkey. The Israelis were displeased at the assassination though fences were mended fast when the gunmen were caught by the Turks and handed over: they belonged to the Abu Nidal Organisation. As to that man himself, he was discovered afterwards to be in Libya. Turkish-Israeli relations had been strengthening for some time and while at first the killing of Eitan strained them a little, the capture and handing over of his killers – they should have been detained in Turkey – improved them. They would only strengthen in the coming months as Turkey found a better friend in Israel than it could in the United States or across Western Europe.
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Post by lukedalton on Apr 15, 2018 17:49:22 GMT
Well, Greece giving the Soviet basin right on Crete it's hard to believe, Papandreu while not an american friends was not really keen to invite the Soviet at their place...even because the Greeks economy it's heavily dependent of the EEC market (already dismissing EEC memberships mean that a lot of monetary aid has not come as instead had happened in OTL). You can explain with the fact that Athens discovered that the 'brilliant' move dryed up some very precious monetary line, and the URSS kindly decided to give some help...in exchange of some little favor, but i doubt that Papandreu don't know that's a deal with the devil.
Anti-Nato protest, well sure the usual idiot will still do something like that, but i doubt that will be massive...expecially in West Germany due to their 'history' with Poland; plus with the Hungarian, Czech, Afghanistan and Iran precendent only the real true believer will buy the 'fraternal aid mumbo jumbo'. In reality all western communist party will be in damage control mode and a separation between the eurocommunist moderate and the hardliner in both France and Italy it's already an assured thing.
Frankly it's more probable that the bulk of the protest will demand a peacefull resolution of the situation and avoiding an armed conflict between the two alliance and only a small minority will spit up all the bs about the 'fascist counterevolution and imperialist plot'...i remember that years and people were more for: try to not be caught up in the final conflict or even the need to rebuild the continent for the third time, than 'Oh how much i love the soviets and they are always right' sure there were people like that, but while vocal they were just a minority.
Edit: regardin Western Europe not being interested in Turkey, well not only it's an important and strategic patner but it's a good client of a lot of weapons industry and there is a sizeble Turkey minority in Germany; so somekind of help will be given, sure not much as the goverment want (more limited budget) but will be neither left alone...expecially with all this tension and Greece behave like an idiot.
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Apr 15, 2018 18:04:50 GMT
Well, Greece giving the Soviet basin right on Crete it's hard to believe, Papandreu while not an american friends was not really keen to invite the Soviet at their place...even because the Greeks economy it's heavily dependent of the EEC market (already dismissing EEC memberships mean that a lot of monetary aid has not come as instead had happened in OTL). You can explain with the fact that Athens discovered that the 'brilliant' move dryed up some very precious monetary line, and the URSS kindly decided to give some help...in exchange of some little favor, but i doubt that Papandreu don't know that's a deal with the devil. Anti-Nato protest, well sure the usual idiot will still do something like that, but i doubt that will be massive...expecially in West Germany due to their 'history' with Poland; plus with the Hungarian, Czech, Afghanistan and Iran precendent only the real true believer will buy the 'fraternal aid mumbo jumbo'. In reality all western communist party will be in damage control mode and a separation between the eurocommunist moderate and the hardliner in both France and Italy it's already an assured thing. Frankly it's more probable that the bulk of the protest will demand a peacefull resolution of the situation and avoiding an armed conflict between the two alliance and only a small minority will spit up all the bs about the 'fascist counterevolution and imperialist plot'...i remember that years and people were more for: try to not be caught up in the final conflict or even the need to rebuild the continent for the third time, than 'Oh how much i love the soviets and they are always right' sure there were people like that, but while vocal they were just a minority. Edit: regardin Western Europe not being interested in Turkey, well not only it's an important and strategic patner but it's a good client of a lot of weapons industry and there is a sizeble Turkey minority in Germany; so somekind of help will be given, sure not much as the goverment want (more limited budget) but will be neither left alone...expecially with all this tension and Greece behave like an idiot. There are no basing rights in Crete. West Germany had anti nuclear marches aplenty all through the early 80s with some right idiotic approaches to international affairs adopted. |
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lordbyron
Warrant Officer
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Likes: 133
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Post by lordbyron on Apr 15, 2018 18:16:25 GMT
Wow, this won't end well, to put it mildly...
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lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,031
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Post by lordroel on Apr 15, 2018 18:18:15 GMT
Wow, this won't end well, to put it mildly... No this will be epic in a bad way. |
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jasonsnow
Sub-lieutenant
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Post by jasonsnow on Apr 15, 2018 18:23:46 GMT
(119)June 1984: There was absolute outrage across the West when it came to the Soviet invasion of Poland. Governments denounced the entry of troops to fight civilians. Activists and campaigners joined them though using less diplomatic language. There were even protest marches in some countries. No one wanted to listen to, let alone believe, the rubbish that this wasn’t an invasion but a friendly intervention where order was being restored and there were only good intentions etc. Almost no one that was. The useful idiots and the dedicated subversives got busy. Soviet propaganda and disinformation was spread willingly and unwillingly as excuses were made and the waters mudded on the matter: there were claims of ‘fascist counterrevolution’ and ‘Imperialist plots’. When reports came out of Poland of the mass deaths when troops engaged civilians but also the deliberate massacres, there were smears made against those who spoke out against them. Generally, public opinion was with their governments that what the Soviets had done in Poland was an outrage though some of that anger was lost when the voices of those denying that this was the case were given a platform. Britain and West Germany saw the biggest influence of those useful idiots and the subversives; in the UK, the usual suspects were aplenty and they even organised a few counter-protests against the demonstrations which took place in London near to the Soviet Embassy with prominent public speakers getting their voices heard. Across in West Germany, early June saw a NATO military alert take place when Soviet & Warsaw Pact forces attacked Poland. It was a small-scale affair and just precautionary. This came at the same time as one of the biggest anti-nuclear marches in the country in recent times was taking place where nuclear power and nuclear weapons were treated as the same. These had been gaining strength for a long time and had support in the Bundestag from The Greens, who remained in a parliamentary alliance with the ruling SPD. No war came the call from the marchers when Poland was spoken of. That didn’t mean no war with regards to Soviet troops fighting in Poland. It meant no war when it came to rumours spread that NATO would attack eastwards now given an excuse with the apparent ‘lies’ being told about Poland all part of a giant conspiracy to prepare for a hostile war of aggression. It was all absolute rubbish. When it was pointed out to some of those protesting against nuclear power and nuclear weapons, and who decried any criticism of Soviet actions in Poland, that they would be the first in line to be shot should West Germany ever be invaded by those peace-loving Soviet soldiers on internationalist duty, they looked at those who said such silly things with incredulity! Governments in Western Europe had seen an approach made to them right before the invasion of Poland where the Soviet Union made an offer on access to cheap oil as long as there was an agreement to buy lots of it. There would be a joint financing of pipelines as well to make the transfer easier in the future and further reduce the price. The bribe wasn’t seen exactly for what it was until Poland happened. It was a good deal and one which was rejected despite economic woes. Ties were being cut with the Soviets as well in terms of many non-ambassadorial diplomatic ones plus other trade agreements. The horror of what was being done to Poland was brought home to the West by news smuggled out of that country in the form of witness reports first before photographs and some video footage. Intelligence agencies were able to get more information too. Western Europe was united on this issue of wanting nothing to do with the Soviet Union anymore. Ustinov was a butcher. However, they weren’t united on other matters elsewhere that were taking place at the same time as Poland was going on. American clashes with Cuba weren’t seen in the simple good guys / bad guys fashion. If allegations of serious Cuban involvement in Mexico were true – the if was important there – then it needed to be stopped. However, the way that Kennedy was going about it upset other governments. There was near-zero warning given to NATO allies when it acme to American air strikes first in April and then again in June. In all honestly, there didn’t have to be but it would have been the correct thing to do when it came to allies. This unilateralism wasn’t any way to win international support. There was too the issue with Libya where the Americans had traded shots with the Libyans who were engaged in a conflict with Egypt that Western European governments wanted no part of. Libya was in the wrong but Libya was an increasingly prominent oil supplier for some countries following the events in recent years in the Middle East with Iranian and then Iraqi oil cut off. This time there was no unilateral action but there was the position which came afterwards from Kennedy that the United States would do as it must in the Middle East with or without their support. Just as the Soviets saw the matter, Kennedy appeared to Western Europe to be acting like he was internationally to shore up domestic support at home when it was looking increasingly likely every day that he was going to lose in November unless he did something. He was doing something now and not thinking of the consequences. Consequences were an issue at the same time across in Turkey. Kurdish terrorism continued with further Kurds pushed into Turkey by the regimes in Damascus and Baghdad. Turkey then watched as several Soviet warships made stops in Souda Bay, that former NATO naval base in Crete. The Greeks gave them a welcome and then the ships moved onwards. Those same ships had come through the Turkish Straits first but that was a side issue in how Turkey saw the matter. They had been right all along: Greece was about to enter the Soviet orbit! Following on from this, there came the assassination on Turkish soil of a senior Israeli spymaster with the involvement in that being identified as being Palestinians doing it at the behest of Libya. The victim was Rafi Eitan, a former Mossad man who ran a scientific research group… a spy front for Israeli intelligence-gathering in the west among supposedly friendly countries. Eitan was also an expert on counter-terrorism – his methods were ones which provoked criticism from some – and he was in Turkey to offer polite guidance as to how to deal with the Kurds before Libya had him killed. The Kurdish issue, the Greek issue and the Libya issue were all separate. That was the truth of the matter to outsiders. It wasn’t viewed that way by those Turkish generals who’d been telling the Americans this for several years now and getting nowhere. The hand of Moscow was behind this. No real support for the Turkish view came from Western Europe either as the Kennedy view on Turkey’s woes was mirrored – not shared – among those governments: they had less time for Turkey. The Israelis were displeased at the assassination though fences were mended fast when the gunmen were caught by the Turks and handed over: they belonged to the Abu Nidal Organisation. As to that man himself, he was discovered afterwards to be in Libya. Turkish-Israeli relations had been strengthening for some time and while at first the killing of Eitan strained them a little, the capture and handing over of his killers – they should have been detained in Turkey – improved them. They would only strengthen in the coming months as Turkey found a better friend in Israel than it could in the United States or across Western Europe. This is very complex indeed. |
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lordroel
Administrator
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Post by lordroel on Apr 15, 2018 18:32:23 GMT
This is very complex indeed. Is the beginning of a World War not always. |
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This means they will lack any significant Polish forces for the foreseeable future as well as having to occupy Poland for quite a while. Also the fact the WSW finally decided their country was more important than the party would mean there would be little/no trust on either side for quite a while as well.