James G
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Post by James G on Apr 12, 2018 19:17:08 GMT
They did have those still, but in the previous update I mentioned they brought some of those French-built Iraqi-embargoed jets which Paris was hawking about to anyone who would take them. In addition, I previously also discussed the regional security role which Mexico was trying to play and the effects of Guatemala going communist in making Mexico having a slightly-stronger military. Those French jets are ashes now though. Well they still have some T-33s left, ore are they also scrap metal worthy. Anything the USAF has in frontline service would make mincemeat of them as an afterthought. That is if the US strikes again. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 12, 2018 19:17:52 GMT
Well they still have some T-33s left, ore are they also scrap metal worthy. Anything the USAF has in frontline service would make mincemeat of them as an afterthought. That is if the US strikes again. Wonder if Cuba has some Migs they can paint in Mexican colors. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Apr 12, 2018 19:19:40 GMT
Anything the USAF has in frontline service would make mincemeat of them as an afterthought. That is if the US strikes again. Wonder if Cuba has some Migs they can paint in Mexican colors. Now that is an idea, isn't it? I wonder... |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 12, 2018 19:25:53 GMT
Wonder if Cuba has some Migs they can paint in Mexican colors. Now that is an idea, isn't it? I wonder... But then again, if they failed against the British during the Belize War, i doubt they will do any better against the United states in real Air to Air combat. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Apr 12, 2018 21:38:39 GMT
It would also be something that would throw Cuba and the US on a collision course for real war.
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Post by lukedalton on Apr 12, 2018 22:14:32 GMT
It would also be something that would throw Cuba and the US on a collision course for real war. Sure...and the Soviet Union will try everything to avoid this at this stage, i expect Ustinov to shout so loud that he don't even need a telephone to communicate with Castro, if the Cuban try a similar move Moscow will prefer deal with a new leader of the Cuban revolution than being dragged in a Cuban-US war (at this stage). The politbureau at this moment will try to de-escalate the situation worldwide, between the economic crisis that had hit them and the rest of east europe (with the troubles in Poland and Romania) and Ukraine not producing enough food, the last thing that they want it's a crisis after crisis after crisis. The border war between Libya and Egypt it's the most easy thing, they can just menace the colonel to stop sending supply and at the moment the libyans will be in a not nice position as their greatest problem logistically speaking it's the low level of population (expecially if compared to Egypt) so they can't have a big military and they had pretty much always been reliant on mercenary and foreign 'volunteers'. Sure Gheddafi will huff and puff but Moscow had bigger problem at the moment |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 12, 2018 22:55:06 GMT
Well that was loud but unfortunately ineffective. I suspect by this stage nothing short of a direct intervention on the ground, which would probably be politically deeply unpopular and might not be that effective. The army is still adjusting to the effects of Vietnam and also the shift to a volunteer army. I remember reading an article in about this time about concerns about the poor quality of recruits the army was receiving.
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James G
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Post by James G on Apr 13, 2018 8:25:51 GMT
It would also be something that would throw Cuba and the US on a collision course for real war. Sure...and the Soviet Union will try everything to avoid this at this stage, i expect Ustinov to shout so loud that he don't even need a telephone to communicate with Castro, if the Cuban try a similar move Moscow will prefer deal with a new leader of the Cuban revolution than being dragged in a Cuban-US war (at this stage). The politbureau at this moment will try to de-escalate the situation worldwide, between the economic crisis that had hit them and the rest of east europe (with the troubles in Poland and Romania) and Ukraine not producing enough food, the last thing that they want it's a crisis after crisis after crisis. The border war between Libya and Egypt it's the most easy thing, they can just menace the colonel to stop sending supply and at the moment the libyans will be in a not nice position as their greatest problem logistically speaking it's the low level of population (expecially if compared to Egypt) so they can't have a big military and they had pretty much always been reliant on mercenary and foreign 'volunteers'. Sure Gheddafi will huff and puff but Moscow had bigger problem at the moment The last thing they want is crisis after crisis but that is what they will get. The Americans are waking up too. Well that was loud but unfortunately ineffective. I suspect by this stage nothing short of a direct intervention on the ground, which would probably be politically deeply unpopular and might not be that effective. The army is still adjusting to the effects of Vietnam and also the shift to a volunteer army. I remember reading an article in about this time about concerns about the poor quality of recruits the army was receiving. Only US boots on the ground and full scale war in Mexico could stop this now. The public reaction would be quite something. Yes the US military isn' in the best way. There is that drug problem and still lingering Vietnam malaise. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 13, 2018 9:07:45 GMT
Sure...and the Soviet Union will try everything to avoid this at this stage, i expect Ustinov to shout so loud that he don't even need a telephone to communicate with Castro, if the Cuban try a similar move Moscow will prefer deal with a new leader of the Cuban revolution than being dragged in a Cuban-US war (at this stage). The politbureau at this moment will try to de-escalate the situation worldwide, between the economic crisis that had hit them and the rest of east europe (with the troubles in Poland and Romania) and Ukraine not producing enough food, the last thing that they want it's a crisis after crisis after crisis. The border war between Libya and Egypt it's the most easy thing, they can just menace the colonel to stop sending supply and at the moment the libyans will be in a not nice position as their greatest problem logistically speaking it's the low level of population (expecially if compared to Egypt) so they can't have a big military and they had pretty much always been reliant on mercenary and foreign 'volunteers'. Sure Gheddafi will huff and puff but Moscow had bigger problem at the moment The last thing they want is crisis after crisis but that is what they will get. The Americans are waking up too. Well that was loud but unfortunately ineffective. I suspect by this stage nothing short of a direct intervention on the ground, which would probably be politically deeply unpopular and might not be that effective. The army is still adjusting to the effects of Vietnam and also the shift to a volunteer army. I remember reading an article in about this time about concerns about the poor quality of recruits the army was receiving. Only US boots on the ground and full scale war in Mexico could stop this now. The public reaction would be quite something. Yes the US military isn' in the best way. There is that drug problem and still lingering Vietnam malaise. But i think as long as Kenny is at the helm the world will think America has gone soft. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Apr 14, 2018 13:38:08 GMT
The last thing they want is crisis after crisis but that is what they will get. The Americans are waking up too. Only US boots on the ground and full scale war in Mexico could stop this now. The public reaction would be quite something. Yes the US military isn' in the best way. There is that drug problem and still lingering Vietnam malaise. But i think as long as Kenny is at the helm the world will think America has gone soft. Very true. The weakness is identified in many places and only being confirmed. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Apr 14, 2018 13:38:22 GMT
(114)
May 1984:
The introduction of Polish troops to restore order across the nation was not a decision taken lightly. Kociołek wasn’t someone to baulk at the thought of blood running in the streets when using riot police against civilians. Soldiers were a different matter though. There was an absolute certainty that the violence which would come with their use would be far greater. However, nothing else was going to work. The situation demanded that it be brought under control less the whole country end up in rebellion.
There had been a period of preparation were the troops were given instructions on how to restore order and instructed only to shoot if necessary but they were still combat soldiers going up against civilians. The Polish Army was trained to fight a war on the battlefields of the North German Plain, across the Iron Curtain over in West Germany and up into Denmark. When going up against civilians, their tanks and artillery were left behind though them men still had their armoured vehicles for transport and personal weapons. The plan was for them to be an unstoppable force which when unleashed against those in rebellion against the government, would force those acting against the state to be fast overcome if they stood or to run away in fright. Bash heads, the soldiers were told before they went into action, and drag counterrevolutionaries back to the lines of military police waiting behind. Snipers were expected to engage the soldiers and so counter-sniper measures were to be used: RPGs or a shell from the cannons of one of the armoured vehicles. There were former conscript soldiers among the counterrevolutionaries who knew how to use captured weapons taken from ZOMO riot police and were training others in that: get them first when identified. Don’t stop advancing in the face of stone-throwing, sniping, petrol bombs and even rifle fire: that was the final message given to the soldiers. Something not said to them was for them to think before they opened fire, to be careful in who they shot at. Why an earth would Kociołek and his generals want soldiers to think? If they did that… they might ask themselves if they would rather go into a fight against their fellow Poles. Thinking, decision-making and using judgement was a no-no.
That blood did indeed run in the streets. Polish troops shot their way through protesters… and anyone else standing in their way too. Hundreds died on the first day and hundreds more each and every following day that Polish soldiers were in action against their fellow countrymen. All across the nation, in urban areas, there were massacres which took place when the troops clashed with civilians. Initially, it looked like the forces of the state were going to win. Standing and fighting with combat-trained soldiers wasn’t something that the civilian opposition could achieve. All of their organisation and experience in fighting against riot police couldn’t prepare them for what they came up against. They either died or ran. That brought forth the issue of the soldiers having to root out the last of the counterrevolutionaries though. From above, political instructions were to not destroy factories and infrastructure when the protesters were being eliminated. That would have to be done to effectively finish off the resistance. Orders to do such a thing were refused. Surround them and move in carefully, using caution and avoiding causing destruction were the orders instead. In following these orders, the soldiers took serious casualties and this sunk their morale. It also brought them into close contact with those whom they were fighting. Shooting what they were told who were traitors from afar was very different from engaging them up close and personal. Should those they fought have been in uniform or foreign then the story would have been different. These were their fellow Poles though.
Desertions started. It was individuals at first and then small groups of men. Political officers were fast to get wind and pulled certain units out of the line while ‘removing’ identified troublemakers. That didn’t work. The mutinies begun and they took hold fast. Rifle squads and then whole platoons refused to fight. Many of those who joined would soon reconsider, thinking of retaliation against their families, though once they were in this, they were in this. Other units were brought in to open fire on these further counterrevolutionaries. Some did, others refused to as well. Military discipline across the Polish Armed Forces fell off the metaphorical cliff. Officers started getting shot. The political officers were quick to make a run for it though those who weren’t fast enough suffered the punishment for those who got away. Neutrality was the claim made by many soldiers: neutrality in this fight between the state and counterrevolutionaries. Others went wholescale over to those in rebellion and joined with them. Kociołek’s leading generals – Jaruzelski and Siwicki – were unable to guarantee to him that more troops wouldn’t desert or munity among those already involved in the fighting or yet to be introduced. Polish military counter-intelligence was active alongside the SB state security service in trying to stop all of this from happening but it was too much to give a guarantee that this wouldn’t spread further. As before, all that Kociołek could do was to pull back. The soldiers were withdrawn from what were the frontlines of a Polish civil war. The state had been checkmated. It couldn’t put down the counterrevolution. Someone else would have to.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 14, 2018 14:01:52 GMT
(114)May 1984: The introduction of Polish troops to restore order across the nation was not a decision taken lightly. Kociołek wasn’t someone to baulk at the thought of blood running in the streets when using riot police against civilians. Soldiers were a different matter though. There was an absolute certainty that the violence which would come with their use would be far greater. However, nothing else was going to work. The situation demanded that it be brought under control less the whole country end up in rebellion. There had been a period of preparation were the troops were given instructions on how to restore order and instructed only to shoot if necessary but they were still combat soldiers going up against civilians. The Polish Army was trained to fight a war on the battlefields of the North German Plain, across the Iron Curtain over in West Germany and up into Denmark. When going up against civilians, their tanks and artillery were left behind though them men still had their armoured vehicles for transport and personal weapons. The plan was for them to be an unstoppable force which when unleashed against those in rebellion against the government, would force those acting against the state to be fast overcome if they stood or to run away in fright. Bash heads, the soldiers were told before they went into action, and drag counterrevolutionaries back to the lines of military police waiting behind. Snipers were expected to engage the soldiers and so counter-sniper measures were to be used: RPGs or a shell from the cannons of one of the armoured vehicles. There were former conscript soldiers among the counterrevolutionaries who knew how to use captured weapons taken from ZOMO riot police and were training others in that: get them first when identified. Don’t stop advancing in the face of stone-throwing, sniping, petrol bombs and even rifle fire: that was the final message given to the soldiers. Something not said to them was for them to think before they opened fire, to be careful in who they shot at. Why an earth would Kociołek and his generals want soldiers to think? If they did that… they might ask themselves if they would rather go into a fight against their fellow Poles. Thinking, decision-making and using judgement was a no-no. That blood did indeed run in the streets. Polish troops shot their way through protesters… and anyone else standing in their way too. Hundreds died on the first day and hundreds more each and every following day that Polish soldiers were in action against their fellow countrymen. All across the nation, in urban areas, there were massacres which took place when the troops clashed with civilians. Initially, it looked like the forces of the state were going to win. Standing and fighting with combat-trained soldiers wasn’t something that the civilian opposition could achieve. All of their organisation and experience in fighting against riot police couldn’t prepare them for what they came up against. They either died or ran. That brought forth the issue of the soldiers having to root out the last of the counterrevolutionaries though. From above, political instructions were to not destroy factories and infrastructure when the protesters were being eliminated. That would have to be done to effectively finish off the resistance. Orders to do such a thing were refused. Surround them and move in carefully, using caution and avoiding causing destruction were the orders instead. In following these orders, the soldiers took serious casualties and this sunk their morale. It also brought them into close contact with those whom they were fighting. Shooting what they were told who were traitors from afar was very different from engaging them up close and personal. Should those they fought have been in uniform or foreign then the story would have been different. These were their fellow Poles though. Desertions started. It was individuals at first and then small groups of men. Political officers were fast to get wind and pulled certain units out of the line while ‘removing’ identified troublemakers. That didn’t work. The mutinies begun and they took hold fast. Rifle squads and then whole platoons refused to fight. Many of those who joined would soon reconsider, thinking of retaliation against their families, though once they were in this, they were in this. Other units were brought in to open fire on these further counterrevolutionaries. Some did, others refused to as well. Military discipline across the Polish Armed Forces fell off the metaphorical cliff. Officers started getting shot. The political officers were quick to make a run for it though those who weren’t fast enough suffered the punishment for those who got away. Neutrality was the claim made by many soldiers: neutrality in this fight between the state and counterrevolutionaries. Others went wholescale over to those in rebellion and joined with them. Kociołek’s leading generals – Jaruzelski and Siwicki – were unable to guarantee to him that more troops wouldn’t desert or munity among those already involved in the fighting or yet to be introduced. Polish military counter-intelligence was active alongside the SB state security service in trying to stop all of this from happening but it was too much to give a guarantee that this wouldn’t spread further. As before, all that Kociołek could do was to pull back. The soldiers were withdrawn from what were the frontlines of a Polish civil war. The state had been checkmated. It couldn’t put down the counterrevolution. Someone else would have to. So might be this the Polish Revolution of 1984, this is going to end badly for the Polish people. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Apr 14, 2018 15:30:24 GMT
(114)May 1984: The introduction of Polish troops to restore order across the nation was not a decision taken lightly. Kociołek wasn’t someone to baulk at the thought of blood running in the streets when using riot police against civilians. Soldiers were a different matter though. There was an absolute certainty that the violence which would come with their use would be far greater. However, nothing else was going to work. The situation demanded that it be brought under control less the whole country end up in rebellion. There had been a period of preparation were the troops were given instructions on how to restore order and instructed only to shoot if necessary but they were still combat soldiers going up against civilians. The Polish Army was trained to fight a war on the battlefields of the North German Plain, across the Iron Curtain over in West Germany and up into Denmark. When going up against civilians, their tanks and artillery were left behind though them men still had their armoured vehicles for transport and personal weapons. The plan was for them to be an unstoppable force which when unleashed against those in rebellion against the government, would force those acting against the state to be fast overcome if they stood or to run away in fright. Bash heads, the soldiers were told before they went into action, and drag counterrevolutionaries back to the lines of military police waiting behind. Snipers were expected to engage the soldiers and so counter-sniper measures were to be used: RPGs or a shell from the cannons of one of the armoured vehicles. There were former conscript soldiers among the counterrevolutionaries who knew how to use captured weapons taken from ZOMO riot police and were training others in that: get them first when identified. Don’t stop advancing in the face of stone-throwing, sniping, petrol bombs and even rifle fire: that was the final message given to the soldiers. Something not said to them was for them to think before they opened fire, to be careful in who they shot at. Why an earth would Kociołek and his generals want soldiers to think? If they did that… they might ask themselves if they would rather go into a fight against their fellow Poles. Thinking, decision-making and using judgement was a no-no. That blood did indeed run in the streets. Polish troops shot their way through protesters… and anyone else standing in their way too. Hundreds died on the first day and hundreds more each and every following day that Polish soldiers were in action against their fellow countrymen. All across the nation, in urban areas, there were massacres which took place when the troops clashed with civilians. Initially, it looked like the forces of the state were going to win. Standing and fighting with combat-trained soldiers wasn’t something that the civilian opposition could achieve. All of their organisation and experience in fighting against riot police couldn’t prepare them for what they came up against. They either died or ran. That brought forth the issue of the soldiers having to root out the last of the counterrevolutionaries though. From above, political instructions were to not destroy factories and infrastructure when the protesters were being eliminated. That would have to be done to effectively finish off the resistance. Orders to do such a thing were refused. Surround them and move in carefully, using caution and avoiding causing destruction were the orders instead. In following these orders, the soldiers took serious casualties and this sunk their morale. It also brought them into close contact with those whom they were fighting. Shooting what they were told who were traitors from afar was very different from engaging them up close and personal. Should those they fought have been in uniform or foreign then the story would have been different. These were their fellow Poles though. Desertions started. It was individuals at first and then small groups of men. Political officers were fast to get wind and pulled certain units out of the line while ‘removing’ identified troublemakers. That didn’t work. The mutinies begun and they took hold fast. Rifle squads and then whole platoons refused to fight. Many of those who joined would soon reconsider, thinking of retaliation against their families, though once they were in this, they were in this. Other units were brought in to open fire on these further counterrevolutionaries. Some did, others refused to as well. Military discipline across the Polish Armed Forces fell off the metaphorical cliff. Officers started getting shot. The political officers were quick to make a run for it though those who weren’t fast enough suffered the punishment for those who got away. Neutrality was the claim made by many soldiers: neutrality in this fight between the state and counterrevolutionaries. Others went wholescale over to those in rebellion and joined with them. Kociołek’s leading generals – Jaruzelski and Siwicki – were unable to guarantee to him that more troops wouldn’t desert or munity among those already involved in the fighting or yet to be introduced. Polish military counter-intelligence was active alongside the SB state security service in trying to stop all of this from happening but it was too much to give a guarantee that this wouldn’t spread further. As before, all that Kociołek could do was to pull back. The soldiers were withdrawn from what were the frontlines of a Polish civil war. The state had been checkmated. It couldn’t put down the counterrevolution. Someone else would have to. So might be this the Polish Revolution of 1984, this is going to end badly for the Polish people. It will get worse when the Soviets decide they need to have their troops do 'internationalist duty'. |
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lordbyron
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Post by lordbyron on Apr 14, 2018 15:30:35 GMT
Oh, this won't end well at all for the Polish people...
Waiting for more, of course...
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Apr 14, 2018 15:30:39 GMT
(115)
May 1984:
It took some time, but Arab League mediation eventually brought forth an agreement for Mubarak and Gadhafi to have their representatives meet (not themselves) and discuss an end to their stalled conflict. Gadhafi refused to send anyone to Cairo, the Egyptian capital where the Arab League was headquartered, on the grounds that that would give the appearance of weakness and it was his choice – which Mubarak huffed and puffed about but eventually agreed on – of Tunis as a location for those talks to commence. Egyptian and Libyan diplomats met in the Tunisian capital. Positions were staked out at once with assurances made that these were red lines. Demands were made of the other side which were known to be impossible to fulfil. There was hostility and threats made. It wasn’t going to be a meeting where any agreement was to come, not at the start anyway. The Arab League mediators worked to get each side to backtrack on those firm opening positions and to search for a middle ground. The Libyans claimed once again that they had nothing to do with the assassination of Sadat and tried to turn the Tunis meeting to focus instead of the agreement made between Sadat and the Israelis. Egypt considered the Israeli agreement none of Libya’s business and wanted to discuss an end to the fighting with Libya admitting that it had sponsored the terrorist killing of its former president. Those strong positions were insurmountable at the beginning for the mediators though there was the recognition that each side wanted an end to the fighting. A ceasefire was proposed. Once there came an end to the armed conflict between the two nations, then there could afterwards be talks on a real peace agreement where the principle reasons behind the conflict were sorted out. This was something which the Egyptian and Libyan diplomats would need permission to agree upon from their leaders. They waited in Tunis for that to be agreed to by Mubarak and Gadhafi. That was what each wanted but to agree too fast would be seen as weakness. There was a delay in that approval coming yet it was going to be sent by each right up to the moment that the Gulf of Sirte Incident occurred.
For more than a decade since his ascension to power, Gadhafi had claimed the Gulf of Sirte as Libyan territorial waters. This was an arm of the Mediterranean and according to international law, the twelve-mile limit was in effect with regard to territorial waters. Gadhafi disputed that and declared a ‘line of death’ through the Gulf of Sirte where any aircraft or ship which crossed it faced attack. That had been challenged by President Ford where his administration sent military aircraft and warships across the Line of Death several times since. The Libyans had opened fire on occasion without managing to hit their targets. Kennedy hadn’t changed the United States position on the illegality of Libyan actions though had scaled back what he had seen as ‘provocation’ there: that had been one of the many issues which had brought forth disagreement with former defence secretary Muskie and such a dispute rose with Muskie’s replacement in Bentsen too. The current secretary of defence had authorised the US Navy to undertake Freedom of Navigation exercises through the Gulf of Sirte, past that Line of Death, starting in the New Year. Egypt and Libya had gone to war and there had been a scaling back of this where the focus for the US Sixth Fleet was instead on shadowing the Soviets and their warships in the Mediterranean. When the diplomats started talking in Tunis though, there came a partial return to those Freedom of Navigation exercises. From the aircraft carrier USS John F. Kennedy, flights were conducted by US Navy fighters along with the undertaking of electronic reconnaissance missions. A clash came in the skies, one instigated by the Libyans yet one which wouldn’t have happened if the US Navy hadn’t been present. Flying from Ghardabiya airbase – near to Sirte, Gadhafi’s birthplace – were a pair of MiG-25 interceptors sent to chase away the Americans. The US Navy saw them coming, closing in fast upon the S-3 aircraft on a reconnaissance mission and put two F-14 Tomcats between that defenceless aircraft and the Libyans. The Libyans shot first. They’d done this before. They did it this time under orders because the position of Gadhafi was that this was a mission conducted by the American aircraft to intimidate him into backing down to Egyptian pressure being exerted in Tunis. The Tomcats got two kills – the calls of ‘Foxbats launching’ were met with the radio calls of ‘Fox Two, Fox Two’ – and returned, like the S-3, to the Kennedy unscathed.
For the second time in two months, during the fourth year of (Ted) Kennedy’s presidency, there had been United States military action where for the preceding years there had been none at all despite all of the apparent provocation. To many, the United States was suddenly getting very aggressive in different areas of the world. Strange it might seem after the years beforehand of inaction but then there was the prevailing view that Kennedy was doing all of this to get himself re-elected. As to those talks in Tunis, they were off when Gadhafi recalled his diplomats and started issuing threats against Egypt and the United States… oh, and the Zionists who were behind all of this. He didn’t forget them in his ranting and raving.
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